634 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

I am not even sure there will be a DA3, seems to me that DA is at the bottom of the barrel at the moment so Bioware could change and go for a new game.

Also if they do a DA3 and continue with the mage templar rubbish i am not even sure i want to play the game after the completely idiotic way it was handled in DA2.

The way it was handled in DA2 makes me want to just throw a bomb over the city and kill them all while i am making my way out of the city, burn them all and get me out of the city as fast as possible.

Bioware writers have to convince me that they are capable of creating a story without plot holes as large as planets.

I love ME3 but i no longer judge the game as an RPG, i still judge DA games as RPG's but may have to change my view.

[bEVEsthda]

deuce985 wrote...
See...I don't get that logic at all. How is Bioware not making RPGs? Just because they're not pure CRPGs anymore, doesn't make them any less RPGs...

The label doesn't matter. Nor does any elaborate and deep discussion about RPG'ness. It's the games. They're not wanted by a certain market segment (which includes me).

I don't think the question - if there is a potential for building a market for the kind of games, that Bioware now (purportly) wants to make, - is fully answered yet. DA2 certainly failed to attract any significant new audience. But you could say Mass Effect seem to possibly have hold of something. But OTOH again, it has failed to build convincingly, even after three games. OTOH yet again, it may have done better than it seems. Because a lot of original ME gamers have possibly dropped off (I have, ME2=). So ME have been able to replace that market and then some. Is there a bigger potential? I don't care and I don't have any ambition to speculate about that, but the franchise have still been horribly mismanaged (end).

Now DA otoh, I do think that DA3 will fail miserably,.. - if it continues in the same direction as DA2. And then it will be Bioware's biggest backlash to date. But purely due to commercial reasons! There won't be much rage. It simply will not sell. DA2 and ME3 did sell, but only because customers were unaware. DA3 will not have that benefit. 

I don't think it's what DA2 fans blame on lack of polish and time. To me, the fixed protagonist and awful combat system of TW2, is much more objectionable than the re-used environments and waves in DA2. Yet I like TW2 and I dislike DA2. To me, the complete absence of any feeling/level of personal connect/channel to NPCs, horrible balancing concept, and awful combat system of Skyrim, is much more objectionable than the re-used environments and waves in DA2. Yet I like Skyrim and dislike DA2.

So it's not the flaws. It's not the "rush job". It's the game itself. I don't want the type of game that DA2 wants to be (movie with interactive but meaningless dialogue, broken up by levels of meaningless console combat). Never did. And I don't think DA3 will ever have the chance to reach many who want. Even if we assume there's a significant amount of people who do, which I frankly very much doubt.

But I don't think DA3 will fail. I think Bioware have learned something and will be able to make an acceptable game. Also, I think there will be many who are in a post-rage mindset to accept something in a different direction than DA:O:2, (but not DA2:2,  by heavens not) as long as it delivers on the important points, role play, player agency, character agency, characters, story. The stage of expecting a sequel to DA:O is way past. Bioware's relation to their market with DA3 will be different. A stage of reconciliation. Don't worry. It'll work. And important: Give yourself a chance to like it, even if it's not, from the first minute,  exactly what you want.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 12 mai 2012 - 10:26 .

[Mercannis]

I dont think the backlash will be all too great. The general feeling i have gotten from many gamers is that DA is dead in the water. I harbour similar feelings as i just dont care about that franchise anymore. DA 2 accomplished that all on its own.

In relation to other games it is as follows;

Skyrim - 400+ hours of gameplay logged

DAO - 6 full playthroughs + Awakening

TW2 - 7 playthroughs and now currently playing TW1 to import an order playthrough.

ME 3 - 2 playthroughs already, imported games from 1-2-3.  Outside that last 10mins the game was solid.

DA2- 1 playthrough that lasted 3 months of struggling to finish it.

For me the facts say more than any indepth analysis.

Modifié par Mercannis, 12 mai 2012 - 11:18 .

[Darth Krytie]

I would never underestimate the people who take massive tantrums on this forum to do anything less than their personal best to overreact over stupid things.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

Indeed. Blighted lands; Old Gods; Blood Magic; Morrigan's sex-ritual; Grey Wardens drinking the blood of their sworn foes. Its Disney at its finest.

Ah. Don't forget The City Elf origin where your fiancee gets raped if you accept the bribe. Don't forget the fact that The City Elf origin also allows you to sacrifice your own father in a blood magic ritual later on in the game and let's not forget the demonic possession of two children whom you can kill if you wish to destroy the demon within them.

Origins also allowed you to condone the slavery in the Alienage and let the elves be taken away as slaves if you wished. You could even destroy the Circle Tower and then tell the Templars to destroy everyone within presumably including the weak, old and even children themselves.

Asides from the Circle Tower being corrupted and tainted by demonic abominations we also had the deep roads, the broodmothers and the grotesqueness surrounding them.

I agree Yrkoon. Dragon Age: Origins was Disney as its finest. Now let me post some pictures from Origins so we can dwell in the warm and fluffy feel of Origins...

 
 
I hear this guy below is a blast with the children!
 

But I hear children love the guy below even more!
 

 
 
Look at this guy cutting himself. Just another day at Disney!
 
Demonic excess surronds a structure in the Circle Tower. The idea was inspired by Disney land.
 
Punching a mother to kill her demonic possessed son. Another day for the staff at Disney land.
 
Sacrificing Isolde in a blood magic ritual to save her son. Yet another day at Disney land.
 
Anyone who says that Origins isn't a dark fantasy obviously doesn't know what a dark fantasy is. Magic and dragons doesn't automatically equal high fantasy. Origins would be better classed as dark high fantasy. To those who say that Origins isn't a dark fantasy I would like to ask: what is then?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 12 mai 2012 - 11:46 .

[Chromie]

Elton John is dead wrote...

I agree Yrkoon. Dragon Age: Origins was Disney as its finest. Now let me post some pictures from Origins so we can dwell in the warm and fluffy feel of Origins...

Oh please bombarding a thread with pictures doesn't do anything to prove your point and neither does cherry picking. 

[Eternal Phoenix]

Skelter192 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

I agree Yrkoon. Dragon Age: Origins was Disney as its finest. Now let me post some pictures from Origins so we can dwell in the warm and fluffy feel of Origins...

Oh please bombarding a thread with pictures doesn't do anything to prove your point and neither does cherry picking. 

Or rather I was exposing the ridiculousness of calling Origins a fluffy and happy adventure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

Indeed. Blighted lands; Old Gods; Blood Magic; Morrigan's sex-ritual; Grey Wardens drinking the blood of their sworn foes. Its Disney at its finest.

It has some "dark moments" slapped on it. But the basic premise is high fantasy child stuff.
Become part of a super hero squad and single handedly unite a country to kill the big bad evil dragon. Very meh.

What made Origins good in my eyes is characters like Loghain, situations like Orzammar (though it is simplistic), the Architect made the darkspawn interesting but before that they were ridiculous..etc. But the basic premise of Origins is the same high fantasy BS. Which is the exact same premise of ME. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 01:11 .

[Yrkoon]

I suspect that in the eyes of say, a die-hard  Witcher 2 fan, anything that isn't "politics" is, therefore, childish BS? Am I getting close?

I don't mean this disparragingly. Political intrigue, when done right (and TW2 does it better than any RPG I've ever played) IS terrific. Mature. Thought provoking. All those things. But High fantasy isn't any less mature simply because it concerns itself with supernatural things, like magic, dragons, dwarves and  hero squads instead of the politics of men.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 mai 2012 - 02:10 .

[Sylvianus]

Yrkoon wrote...

I suspect that in the eyes of say, a die-hard  Witcher 2 fan, anything that isn't "politics" is, therefore, childish BS? Am I getting close?

I don't mean this disparragingly. Political intrigue, when done right (and TW2 does it better than any RPG I've ever played) IS terrific. Mature. Thought provoking. All those things. But High fantasy isn't any less mature simply because it concerns itself with supernatural things, like magic, dragons, dwarves and  hero squads instead of the politics of men.

This. Thank you.

It's getting borring to see die hard witcher 2 fans saying that everything that isn't  politics is bad or idiot or childish,which is ridiculous. You have the right to like different things, but that's not the same.

When you read their opinion, it's amazing how they treat everything like facts, while that's just what they like most with what they want in their stories, and the worst is they don't see it. Haha, no politics of mens, haha, it's idiot, it's childish, it's borring, blah blah bah. We get it.
Just  buy a game that will please you ( with politics of men ) and you won't have any issue.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 12 mai 2012 - 03:06 .

[Chromie]

Sylvianus wrote...

When you read their opinion, it's amazing how they treat everything like facts

Your doing that now aren't you?

And I don't mind high fantasy. If done well then I'm all for it but Origins didn't handle the darkspawn threat well. There was no loss that I could control. I went to 4 places and built an army. I'd prefer some more like Planscape Torment fantasy depending on you ask it could be high fantasy.

Modifié par Skelter192, 12 mai 2012 - 01:54 .

[Blastback]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

Ouch, those two posts about as bitter and condescending as I've ever seen - even more so than self-anointed real fans. Not sure that does much to help... whatever message it was you were trying to get across.

The message was:

For whatever reason, BioWare no-longer makes games for you.  Stop taking it so personally, just move on.

The problem then becomes where does one move on to?  I haven't found anything that I enjoy as much as Bioware's products.  Obsidian can come close at times, but not quite. 

I know that Bioware might not be making exactly the kinds of games that I love anymore, but my hope is that they can modify the current direction in a way that will allow me to still enjoy them.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Skelter192 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

I agree Yrkoon. Dragon Age: Origins was Disney as its finest. Now let me post some pictures from Origins so we can dwell in the warm and fluffy feel of Origins...

Oh please bombarding a thread with pictures doesn't do anything to prove your point and neither does cherry picking. 

Sorry your majesty ... You lost this time. Pictures as proof are convincing more than enough.

[Yrkoon]

Skelter192 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

When you read their opinion, it's amazing how they treat everything like facts

Your doing that now aren't you?

And I don't mind high fantasy. If done well then I'm all for it but Origins didn't handle the darkspawn threat well. There was no loss that I could control. I went to 4 places and built an army. I'd prefer some more like Planscape Torment fantasy depending on you ask it could be high fantasy.

I think DA:O  (and then Awakening) did the Darkspawn threat pretty darn well.   And they did the lore behind the Darkspawn even better.

But If we're going to nit-pick, and name-drop Planescape: Torment(!),   then I'd argue that TW2 does the  "Amnesia-suffering hero"   cliche terribly.  Cringingly, even.    So there.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 mai 2012 - 02:13 .

[Sylvianus]

Skelter192 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

When you read their opinion, it's amazing how they treat everything like facts

Your doing that now aren't you?

No, I only gave my opinion about what I often see and read on this forum. Your preferences don't bother me by the way.

[Joy Divison]

A game doesn't need excellent political intrigue to be an great, but it does need *something* to keep a gamer invested in it. DA:O did have a kind of hackneyed "save the world form the big bad" plot BUT I've never had a game elicit my emotions that way it did so it was amazing. I did not care so much about saving the world as I did roleplaying my warden; the origins story, the choices, characters, situations, NPCs, etc., all combined to make one the best games I ever played.

Labels are nonsense. I don't care about high fantasy, dark fantasy, what is an RPG , what isn't, the merits of the dialogue wheel, et al. Just make a good game that I can't wait to get home from work to play.

To answer the OP's question: no. Too many fans have already been disappointed enough about DA2 and ME3. A mediocre DA3 won't surprise.

[termokanden]

I have no idea when a game qualifies as dark fantasy, and I suspect there is no official definition. I will agree that games can get a lot darker than DA:O, but how you can think it's a Disney game is beyond me.

As for the Darkspawn threat, I always felt that was the game's weak point. I loved most of the game, but ultimately you're just fighing some ultimately evil out to destroy the world for reasons you couldn't possibly understand. However, unlike the fight against the reapers story in the Mass Effect series, DA:O has the Grey Wardens, and this at least manages to add some extra flavor to the otherwise generic save-the-world plot.

Modifié par termokanden, 12 mai 2012 - 02:37 .

[stonbw1]

Even if DA3 is much worse than ME3 (which I really enjoyed), I suspect that the fan base for DA is much smaller and therefore, it isn't likely to garnish that much backlash. Further, getting bored of DA:O and not purchasing DA:2, I was under the impression from you guys that it wasn't even a real trilogy and therefore, probably doesn't garnish that much loyalty either.

[Elhanan]

Looking forward to DA3; plan to pre-order again unless it is discovered to be a shoe shopping trip to Orlais.

[Yrkoon]

stonbw1 wrote...
 Further, getting bored of DA:O and not purchasing DA:2, I was under the impression from you guys that it wasn't even a real trilogy and therefore, probably doesn't garnish that much loyalty either.

It's not a real trilogy (in the ME sense) that's true.  But loyalty  is gained and grown from much more than  just a singular on-going story.  In a good RPG, the world, the setting, the gameplay and the lore can do the trick.

The Elder Scrolls is a good example of that. There are throngs of   fans that have been loyal to that francise for  17 friggin years.  And their loyalty is  physical... tangeable.  It's what caused  Morrowind to outsell Daggerfall, and Oblivion to outsell Morrowind, and Skyrim to outsell all of them combined.

Bioware *could* have been on their way to  this type of  loyalty-based guaranteed sales trend with Dragon Age.  But  they decided to reboot the  franchise after the first game  (or kick down the sand castle, as Laidlaw put it).    Terrible move.  Because now they have to rebuild  a huge part of the massive fan-base that Origins attracted and DA2 lost.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 mai 2012 - 03:09 .

[termokanden]

Elhanan wrote...
shoe shopping trip to Orlais.

I might just buy that.

[Seboist]

Yrkoon wrote...

I suspect that in the eyes of say, a die-hard  Witcher 2 fan, anything that isn't "politics" is, therefore, childish BS? Am I getting close?

I don't mean this disparragingly. Political intrigue, when done right (and TW2 does it better than any RPG I've ever played) IS terrific. Mature. Thought provoking. All those things. But High fantasy isn't any less mature simply because it concerns itself with supernatural things, like magic, dragons, dwarves and  hero squads instead of the politics of men.

No, Bioware's schtick of inane hero worship and having leaders turned into blubbering morons in order to stroke the players' ego is what makes it childish. I've played various T rated JRPGs that treat their characters with more digintiy than the Alliance committee in the intro of ME3 or Meredith.