634 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

I suspect that in the eyes of say, a die-hard  Witcher 2 fan, anything that isn't "politics" is, therefore, childish BS? Am I getting close?

I don't mean this disparragingly. Political intrigue, when done right (and TW2 does it better than any RPG I've ever played) IS terrific. Mature. Thought provoking. All those things. But High fantasy isn't any less mature simply because it concerns itself with supernatural things, like magic, dragons, dwarves and  hero squads instead of the politics of men.

When it becomes a tale of fighting against faceless "evil" reeking of hero worship, it's immature and childish.

That doesn't mean those who play it are immature, I too play immature games for fun every once in a while. But an immature story remains immature, lacking complexity, tact and nuance. That doens't mean it can't be great or interesting either.

EDIT: and just to clarify that I don't think all of Origins is immature. It's premise is. But Loghain, Orzammar and to an extent the Landsmeet, as well as its nuanced and multi-faceted characters, save it and give it a lot of complexity and maturity.

For DA2, it's the opposite. Its premise is not immature, but the execution is on almost all fronts.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 04:31 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Elhanan wrote...

Looking forward to DA3; plan to pre-order again unless it is discovered to be a shoe shopping trip to Orlais.

I'll pre-order an additional copy if thats the case.

[Yrkoon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

I suspect that in the eyes of say, a die-hard  Witcher 2 fan, anything that isn't "politics" is, therefore, childish BS? Am I getting close?

I don't mean this disparragingly. Political intrigue, when done right (and TW2 does it better than any RPG I've ever played) IS terrific. Mature. Thought provoking. All those things. But High fantasy isn't any less mature simply because it concerns itself with supernatural things, like magic, dragons, dwarves and  hero squads instead of the politics of men.

When it becomes a tale of fighting against faceless "evil" reeking of hero worship, it's immature and childish.

That doesn't mean those who play it are immature,

It doesn't mean the game is  immature either.    Anyone can whittle down any  story to its bare essentials, reducing the whole plot to a 1-sentence soundbyte that  will obviously come across as   simplistic and childish.      I can do the same to your precious Witcher 2.  Watch:

The Witcher 2  - you play a mutant with super human powers (comic book cliche #1), who has amnesia (literary cliche #2), who wanders the world in search of his past, and gets caught up in local ward politics (yawn)

^is this accurate?  Technically yes.  Is it an honest assessment of TW2's plot?  Not even close.  But that's exactly what you're trying to do here with DA:O's plot.    You completely omit the in-game lore that the player discovers about Blights (past and present).  About arch demons, about the religious origins of Darkspawn.     You know, stuff that PUTS a face on the enemy, and gives the threat the weight it has.  You completely mis-label Grey Wardens, referring to them as  "super heros", as if they're some force of good from a children's fairytale, rather than the grizzled, pragmatic, amoral thugs that the game actually portrays them as on several occasions.  You ignore the entire  Dark Ritual, as if it's some marginal  "extra"  thing, rather than the very embodiment of dark and mature, and something I've not encountered the likes of in any other fantasy game I've ever played.  (and no, the "I f**ked her!" trading cards from  the Witcher don't count.)

You focus on Logain, because he  has a face and talks.  Nevermind the fact that there's really nothing special about Logain; or what he ever says.  He's no different than any   rebellious General in any story,   and kudos to  Bioware for  intelligently relegating him and his  non-fantasy plots to a secondary position in the overall scheme of  DA:O's story.


There's also the matter  Companions in DA:O.  They're part of the  story and  not a single one of them can honestly  be described as "immature story-telling".  (there's no Minsc and Boo in DA:O, for example)

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 mai 2012 - 05:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...
It doesn't mean the game is  immature either.    Anyone can whittle down any  story to its bare essentials, reducing the whole plot to a 1-sentence soundbyte that sounds woefully simplistic and childish.      I can do the same to your precious, Witcher 2.  Watch:

The Witcher 2  - you play a mutant with super human powers (comic book cliche #1), who has amnesia (literary cliche #2), who wanders the world in search of his past, and gets caught up in local ward politics (yawn)

^is this accurate?  Technically yes.  Is it an honest assessment of TW2's plot?  Not even close. 

What you just demonstrated was that TW2 has cliches. That has nothing to do with maturity.

But that's exactly what you're trying to do here with DA:O's plot.    You completely omit the in-game lore that the player discovers about Blights.  About arch demons, about past blights and how they shaped Thedas.     You know, stuff that PUTS a face on the enemy, and gives the threat the weight it has.

And what is it about the archdemons that is so mature? That they were Old Gods that got corrupted? They still remain mindless monsters that want to kill everything, with no thought, motivation and complexity at all. Big bad Evil = childish. The part of them being old Gods is never explored and is kept in one or two codices, wow. 
Past blights are relegated to codices and their effects on Thedas are not explored at all.

The darkspawn have no face, that was accomplished only with Awakening. Before that, the darkspawn were mindless hordes of orcs, with no motivation, no will and no thought = childish.

About the Grey Wardens. Sure their copy pasting of the Night's Watch from Song of Ice and Fire makes them an atypical band of super heroes (which is not explored either, we only hear of it once or twice). But ultimately, that's what they are. Walking Deus Ex machinas. The only people who can defeat blights. The people that are hero worshipped with the most idiotic speech I heard "For the grey Wardens!", eum what?

Now had they actually explored the fact that Wardens essentially become half darkspawn and forsake their humanity, then they would have been very interesting. But this is never addressed. It's exactly like Shepard in ME2 becoming a cyborg but it never being addressed. The Witcher and Deus Ex on the other hand do.

As for Loghain. He's not great because he can talk and has a face. He is great because he has *motivation*, has a *will*, and is *relatable.* The darkspawn  have no will, no motivation other than "lol kill everything" and are not relatable in the slightest, the complete alien evil other. Childish concept when people don't want to have relatable human enemies, but just demonized inhuman foes that they can slaughter happily without thought.
This changed with Awakening, but I am putting Awakening on the side.

As for the Dark Ritual. It will depend entreily on hoiw they handle it. But it's not the basic premise of the game, which is what I am focusing on. As I clarified, I do not think Origisn is compeltely immature, it has a good amount of moments that have subtelty, nuance and complexity. And I just said that it had very good characters.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 05:38 .

[termokanden]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

About the Grey Wardens. Sure their copy pasting of the Night's Watch from Song of Ice and Fire makes them an atypical band of super heroes (which is not explored either, we only hear of it once or twice). But ultimately, that's what they are. Walking Deus Ex machinas. The only people who can defeat blights. The people that are hero worshipped with the most idiotic speech I heard "For the grey Wardens!", eum what?

They are not walking deus ex machinas. They are introduced in the very beginning of the game along with the darkspawn and have existed for I don't know how long.

Now had they actually explored the fact that Wardens essentially become half darkspawn and forsake their humanity, then they would have been very interesting. But this is never addressed. It's exactly like Shepard in ME2 becoming a cyborg but it never being addressed. The Witcher and Deus Ex on the other hand do.

It isn't properly addressed in the main game. But it is certainly explored in one of the DLCs.

[jackofalltrades456]

My expectations for Dragon Age 3 are extremely low and I have a feeling they're going to end up repeating Dragon Age 2. It's not that Dragon Age 2 was a horrible game, but I just absolutely hated the direction they went with it. Hell, that was even the reason why the former lead designer for Origins left the company. http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

Bioware could surprise us with a game that's as great as Origins or just release another rushed mess like Dragon Age 2 or Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 12 mai 2012 - 05:44 .

[Dominus]

I haven't seen any cinematics or gameplay footage, so that's impossible to answer. Hard to make an educated guess without enough viable information.

Modifié par DominusVita, 12 mai 2012 - 05:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

termokanden wrote...
They are not walking deus ex machinas. They are introduced in the very beginning of the game along with the darkspawn and have existed for I don't know how long.

Their importance is revealed at the very end. Throughout the game, I was wondering what's so important about being a Warden.

And if not walking deus ex machinas, then walking plot hammers. A reason to make the player feel important.
Because obviously having armies win blights isn't epic enough, we need to have the hero kill the big bad evil dragon for that.

It isn't properly addressed in the main game. But it is certainly explored in one of the DLCs.

Avernus? Not really.
All he says is that Warden blood has potential. The DLC added a tiny bit of political intrigue in the setting, but it never explored the implications of being a warden. That you're half or part darkspawn. 

The only mention was Morrigan saying it enhances sexual performance....

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 05:50 .

[termokanden]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Their importance is revealed at the very end. Throughout the game, I was wondering what's so important about being a Warden.

Well they can't get killed by the blight. I thought that was the point.

The part about killing the archdemon may be a bit of a deus ex machina. I don't know, it's sort of hinted thoughout the game that the grey wardens are the only ones who can stop it.

And if not walking deus ex machinas, then walking plot hammers. A reason to make the player feel important.
Because obviously having armies win blights isn't epic enough, we need to have the hero kill the big bad evil dragon for that.

Oh no doubt. At least the ritual (where you essentially cheat and "forget" to tell anyone about it) and Loghain's sacrifice add a little flavor to it.

Avernus? Not really.
All he says is that Warden blood has potential. The DLC added a tiny bit of political intrigue in the setting, but it never explored the implications of being a warden. That you're half or part darkspawn. 

Well he is researching it. But it's just a short DLC.

[KnightofPhoenix]

termokanden wrote...
Oh no doubt. At least the ritual (where you essentially cheat and "forget" to tell anyone about it) and Loghain's sacrifice add a little flavor to it.

I agree. Even the sacrifice bit adds flavor to it and help prevent it from being ridiculously childish. But ultimately, it's super hero to the rescue.

Well he is researching it. But it's just a short DLC.

Maybe he should have been a companion, I found Avernus one of the most interesting characters that was underused / explored.

[Yrkoon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What you just demonstrated was that TW2 has cliches. That has nothing to do with maturity.

Oh, I wouldn't say that.  I've encountered very few adult-oriented stories that feature a mutant superhero with super human powers.  I have seen plenty of crappy cartoons with  one of those tho

But that's exactly what you're trying to do here with DA:O's plot.    You completely omit the in-game lore that the player discovers about Blights.  About arch demons, about past blights and how they shaped Thedas.     You know, stuff that PUTS a face on the enemy, and gives the threat the weight it has.

And what is it about the archdemons that is so mature? That they were Old Gods that got corrupted? They still remain mindless monsters that want to kill everything, with no thought, motivation and complexity at all. Big bad Evil = childish.

These are irrelevant questions.   Here's a crazy thought:  Not every  mature plot has to be Protagonist vs.  diabolical schemer.   Contrary to what you might have been raised to believe,  Man vs. Nature is a valid conflict too.  And often times can be as mature or more so than a Dr. Evil  plotline.

But I digress, this is all nothing compared to, you know, Letho from TW2.  "hey, I'm a  witcher from some super secret monk monestary, and I'm gonna go around killing kings until  the Hero comes and has a chit-chat with me over a  40oz'er

About the Grey Wardens. Sure their copy pasting of the Night's Watch from Song of Ice and Fire makes them an atypical band of super heroes (which is not explored either, we only hear of it once or twice). But ultimately, that's what they are. Walking Deus Ex machinas. The only people who can defeat blights. The people that are hero worshipped with the most idiotic speech I heard "For the grey Wardens!", eum what?

From where are you getting this super hero crap?  There's nothing inherantly special about  grey wardens.  They're normal people who, due to a ritual, can sense and "listen" to  darkspawn.  And that's all.   A mage warden is literally no different, power wise than any other mage.  Ditto with warrior and rogue  wardens.

I do find it quite hypocritical  that you'd keep dropping the Super hero claim.  Shall we look at the Witcher again?  There's your superhero.   Literally.  the Witcher is a genetically altered being who can cast signs and  sword fight better than the entire rest of the population.

As for Loghain. He's not great because he can talk and has a face. He is great because he has *motivation*,  has a *will*,

Oh Boy! Will and motivation.  Well I guess this puts the maturity discussion to rest then.  Can't find anyone  in a child's cartoon with will and motivation.  No no.  Those antagonist qualities are reserved for adult entertainment.



 

and is *relatable.*

Of course he's relatable.    He's a cleche we've seen countless times before.
 

As for the Dark Ritual. It will depend entreily on hoiw they handle it. But it's not the basic premise of the game, which is what I am focusing on.

Then you've moved the goalposts for your own convenience.  We weren't discussing just game premises.  We were discussing whole plots.  I see no need to unaturally place limitations on  the discussion, especially after you've come  here condemning  Dragon Age: Origins as Immature.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 mai 2012 - 06:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...
How about the fact that they were worshipped by the ancient tevinter magistars.  Or the fact that they do have a language; or the fact that they speak on their own "wavelength"  that Grey Wardens can tap in to, and which we learn more about in Awakening?   Or the fact that the Arch demon ISN'T mindless at all.  Your party discovers  his savy during the denerim seige.

When they were old Gods, something that was never explored. The fact that the Wardens can hear the song is irrelevent and never explored either, barring two dream sequences that mean nothing.
The Archdemon is mindless in the sense it has no motivation other than killing everything. It using tactics to do so doesn't change the fact that it's big bad evil BS (animals are smart too you know). Plus, the archdemon was stupid on top of it all. Like the Reapers.

Where is the nature in the darkspawn exactly? How do they represent nature? They are simple monsters who want to kill everything, there is nothing natural about them. Heck, that's the basic premise of their entire existence.
If you are going to tell me they represent human hubris because millenia ago, hubris supposedely created them, then there are ten million better and more mature ways to explore humanity's fight against its own nature. You know, by having actual people and not child story monsters.

It doesn't have to be a schemer. But a relatable, "human" antagonist, with thoughts, beliefs, feelings and motivations that are not :"lol I want to destroy everything!"
And of course Letho beats every single Bioware antagonist, combined.

From where are you getting this super hero crap?  There's nothing inherantly special about  grey wardens.  They're normal people who, due to a ritual, can sense and "listen" to  darkspawn.  And that's all.   A mage warden is literally no different, power wise than any other mage.  Ditto with warrior and rogue  wardens.

Did you forget the part that only they can kill archdemons? You know, the whole premise of the story?

I do find it quite hypocritical  that you'd keep dropping the Super hero claim.  Shall we look at the Witcher again?  There's your superhero.   Literally.  the Witcher is a genetically altered being who can cast signs and  sword fight better than the entire rest of the population.

No, as they are not here to save the world, they are not the only ones who can kill the big bad evil (because there isn't one, surprise) and they kill for money.

Oh Boy! Will and motivation.  Well I guess this puts the maturity discussion to rest then.  Can't find anyone  in a child's cartoon with will and motivation.  No no.  Those antagonist qualities are reserved for adult entertainment.

Motivation that actually makes sense, is grounded and relatable. "I want to destroy everything!" is not a mature motivation. "I want to take over the world because it's fun" is not mature motivation.


 

Then you've moved the goalposts for your own convenience.  We weren't discussing just game premises.  We were discussing whole plots.  I see no need to unaturally place limitations on  the discussion, especially after you've come  here condemning  Dragon Age: Origins as Immature.

No, go back and read what I said. If you want, I can even quote it for you, but hopefully you are not that lazy.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 06:15 .

[Seboist]

The biggest disappointment in DA:O for me was learning that the much hyped darkspawn mastermind turned out to be a Dragon.... and that's it. "Anti-climatic" doesn't begin to describe discovering that this antagonist had no more depth than a Ninja Gaiden end-boss.

[AngryFrozenWater]

BW described ME3 as an action game with an interactive story. It was a course that already became visible in ME2. By doing that they deliberately moved that franchise away from the RPG arena. With DA2 BW tried to do something similar. Fans like me were not exactly happy about that. The same goes for the rushed state and the removal of player agency. Management, marketing and PR clearly doesn't like RPGs anymore. Those are what fans like me don't like about the current direction. What is worse is that BW is promising features that they do not implement in the game - not by accident, but consistently. That's worrisome. It feels like RPG has become a dirty word in the BW vocabulary. And that's strange, because, whether you like the game or not, Skyrim has shown that RPGs can sell like hotcakes. It's not that I want BW to go in that direction, but maybe, like Beth is doing, it is a good idea to build upon the strengths of the previous titles, instead of watering them down.

[Elhanan]

Seboist wrote...

The biggest disappointment in DA:O for me was learning that the much hyped darkspawn mastermind turned out to be a Dragon.... and that's it. "Anti-climatic" doesn't begin to describe discovering that this antagonist had no more depth than a Ninja Gaiden end-boss.

A dragon that is also considered to be an Old god; one that can only be slain by a Grey Warden, and.  which may cause the death of said Warden. They cannot all be fire dwelling Balrogs.

Seems like good stuff to me....

[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For DA2, it's the opposite. Its premise is not immature, but the execution is on almost all fronts.

That's how parts of The Witcher come off to me.  I feel gross playing it, and at the very least need to be fully dressed in a well-lit room to not feel like I've just loaded some perverted old man's escapist fantasty and be obligated to apologize personally to every woman I've ever met.  

The only thing I like about it is the political aspect, and unlike in DA2 where I have sympathy for both sides' arguments the Squirrels' presentation did nothing for me in either TW1 or the parts of TW2 I could get through.  I side against them without hesitation or remorse, and that's less appealing.

The monster killing, the very core of what a Witcher is, bores the ever loving bejesus out of me.  It's like the darkspawn parts of DA but without the big-bad impetus.  Half the game is like an MMO quest as a result.

So while I loved the siege camp and the premise behind it - exploitative fanservice with naked Triss in the tent aside, see first point - TW2 rapidly went downhill for me after that was over.

DA2 on the other hand doesn't appear immature in its execution only, well, rushed.  As it was.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 mai 2012 - 06:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
DA2 on the other hand doesn't appear immature in its execution only, well, rushed.  As it was.

Soul edge idol, demons spawning in every corner in the wave load, insanity rampant everywhere pathetically "explained" by a codex due to of course a teir in the veil (aka more demons) and now apparently because a darkspawn was dreaming, complete incompetence of all characters involved not to mention the melodrama, and no exploration at all of geo-politics....etc etc.

Yea, sure.

It's laughably immature. The only thing it would have succeeded in doing were I not attached to the franchise is make me laugh throughout.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 06:28 .

[Seboist]

Elhanan wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The biggest disappointment in DA:O for me was learning that the much hyped darkspawn mastermind turned out to be a Dragon.... and that's it. "Anti-climatic" doesn't begin to describe discovering that this antagonist had no more depth than a Ninja Gaiden end-boss.

A dragon that is also considered to be an Old god; one that can only be slain by a Grey Warden, and.  which may cause the death of said Warden. They cannot all be fire dwelling Balrogs.

Seems like good stuff to me....

Yeah, that's waaaay deeper than NG's plot of an evil deity needing to be killed by a Dragon Ninja and his Dragon Sword.... not.

[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Soul edge idol

I'll give you that one.  Well, mostly.  It was fine until Meredith broke it out at the end, she didn't need further reason to do what she did, her characterization as a paranoid autocrat was already complete.  Because of the writing.

KnightofPhoenix wrote... 

demons spawning in every corner in the wave load

Is this an encounter design complaint?  That would fall under "rushed."

No different to me than, say, Flotsam being utterly surrounded by deadly monsters.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...  

insanity ranpant everywhere pathetically "explained" by a codex due to of course a teir in the veil (aka more dmeons)

Not seeing how this represents "immaturity" in any way.  It's background.  Kirkwall is a hellmouth.  There should have never even been a Circle there.  Situations like that lead to wars, which is... what happened.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...  

and now apparently because a darkspawn was dreaming, complete incompetence of all characters involved

The premise of the Witcher 2 relies on rank incompetence, the cutscene with the assassination of the King in the beginning made me laugh.  Well, it made me head-desk with all the telegraphed incompetence.  I just laugh in hindsight.  That scene was scripted by a nine year old.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...   

not to mention the melodrama, and no exploration at all of geo-politics....etc etc

Considering youre criticizing the plot, not mentioning the issues you have with the melodrama seems like an oversight.  Melodrama isn't necessarily immature.  

Furthermore, geopolitics also does not equal maturity.  That Kirkwall was a crucible for the mage issue in Thedas stands to reason for the very thing you dismiss above.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...   

Yea, sure.

It's laughably immature. The only thing it would have succeeded in doing were I not attached to the franchise is make me laugh throughout.

The only argument you've effectively proven is you didn't like it.

Which is all I really try to do with games, hence my TW1-2 comments.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I suppose Knight of Phoenix is right, just saying. Anyway DAO actually scares me, so it's not childish in certain moments. I agree about big old faceless evils are childish.

They don't make you think wth they have been doing or think. 'Obvious Evil' should be destroyed, without any doubt. Too easy

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 12 mai 2012 - 06:34 .

[Chromie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's how parts of The Witcher come off to me.  I feel gross playing it, and at the very least need to be fully dressed in a well-lit room to not feel like I've just loaded some perverted old man's escapist fantasty and be obligated to apologize personally to every woman I've ever met.  

Lol Game of Thrones would probably terrify you.

[upsettingshorts]

Skelter192 wrote...

Lol Game of Thrones would probably terrify you.

What?  I watch it.  I know many people who've read the series as well and can't stand The Witcher.

I don't like the sexposition in GoT either because it's (wait for it) immature.

However the sex scenes with actual characterization that isn't there to give the audience a boner are good.  If anyone links me to any sex scene or related act from TW1-2 and attempts to argue that they're the former and not the latter I'm only going to laugh at them.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 mai 2012 - 06:38 .

[Yrkoon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Where is the nature in the darkspawn exactly? How do they represent nature?

Nature  as a non- man made force.   (as opposed to the personal schemes of a schemer.)   The fact that a Darkspawn horde can walk  the land and blight it is an illustration of that.

It doesn't have to be a schemer. But a relatable, "human" antagonist, with thoughts, beliefs, feelings and motivations that are not :"lol I want to destroy everything!"

Why?     Does one represent a more "mature" threat than the other?  We got your humanized villian in DA2.  It was immature garbage.  So no thanks.  I'll take the well written  faceless threat, over the poor attempt at "I'm like you but eeevvviiilll" schtick.

 

And of course Letho beats every single Bioware antagonist, combined.

Well, except for maybe Irenicus, Or  Serevok.   He's  most definitely up there  though.  Very close call.

From where are you getting this super hero crap?  There's nothing inherantly special about  grey wardens.  They're normal people who, due to a ritual, can sense and "listen" to  darkspawn.  And that's all.   A mage warden is literally no different, power wise than any other mage.  Ditto with warrior and rogue  wardens.

Did you forget the part that only they can kill archdemons? You know, the whole premise of the story?

There's a HUGE difference between "only YOU, the chosen one, can Kill X"  -vs.-   X can only be killed by YOU because your body is part Darkspawn due to a deadly ritual  designed to decieve the archdemon's spirit into escaping into your soul-filled body and exploding the both of you.

^That's Maturity.    It's not the   "I'm superman, and only I can damage the villian from Krypton" premise you're making it out to be.

I do find it quite hypocritical  that you'd keep dropping the Super hero claim.  Shall we look at the Witcher again?  There's your superhero.   Literally.  the Witcher is a genetically altered being who can cast signs and  sword fight better than the entire rest of the population.

No, as they are not here to save the world,

Semantics.  You're stuck saving the world anyway in TW2 (well, as much as it can be saved, in any event.  it's a cliff hanger, after all).  You're literally dragged, kicking and screaming from one chapter to the next, with the game not concluding until the big bad evil(s) is dealt with. 

Let me state again:  I have no problem with this.  I'm merely pointing  it out to show you that it has nothing to do with maturity or immaturity

and they kill for money

In subquests and board notice quests, maybe.  But then, so  does the Warden. 

Oh Boy! Will and motivation.  Well I guess this puts the maturity discussion to rest then.  Can't find anyone  in a child's cartoon with will and motivation.  No no.  Those antagonist qualities are reserved for adult entertainment.

Motivation that actually makes sense, is grounded and relatable. "I want to destroy everything!" 

Again,  you act as if motivation even matters.  An Asteroid zooming towards earth does not need a "motivation", or a 'relatable personality", to  make for a mature story involving a cataclysmic threat that has to be dealt with before the entire earth is destroyed..


Edit:  sorry for the botched quote tags.   Fixed them on edit.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 mai 2012 - 06:43 .