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[Taboo]

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Segameister wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I am also aware of his belief that the Retake movement was trying to wrestle creative control.

The Retake movement is NOT about wrestling creative control.  I see us as the 'tip of the spear', where the spear is ALL the fans that doesn't like the ending.  We're trying to be loud, focused, draw attention to the issue.

The ISSUE being that the fruit loop ending (pick a color) couldn't have been a worse way to end this illustrious serious. 

Heaven forbid that this perception becomes an excuse to not change the ending.

You can use whatever nonsese you like to try and dress it up, but the fact is that the retake movement was about nothing more than trying to force bioware to make a new ending.

Of course. But not to wrestle creative control.

There is a difference.

There is.  However, changing it from what they presented to something different is, in fact, forcing them to alter their creative vision, and the act of BioWare doing so is relinquishing their creative control over the story.  

That movement doesn't want a specific ending, as far as I know, but they do want something---anything---else other than the one BioWare created, one that they're proud of. 

They are altering their vision with the Extended Cut. You of all people should understand what that actually means. More footage is an alteration.

[Tazzmission]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Segameister wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I am also aware of his belief that the Retake movement was trying to wrestle creative control.

The Retake movement is NOT about wrestling creative control.  I see us as the 'tip of the spear', where the spear is ALL the fans that doesn't like the ending.  We're trying to be loud, focused, draw attention to the issue.

The ISSUE being that the fruit loop ending (pick a color) couldn't have been a worse way to end this illustrious serious. 

Heaven forbid that this perception becomes an excuse to not change the ending.

You can use whatever nonsese you like to try and dress it up, but the fact is that the retake movement was about nothing more than trying to force bioware to make a new ending.

Of course. But not to wrestle creative control.

There is a difference.

i dissagree mainly because there are in fact some who have pressured the idea of creative controll

im not saying they all were but some have

[Taboo]

Bioware created something that part of the hardcore fanbase did not want.

And have suffered for it.

The root of the problem is right there.

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Segameister wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I am also aware of his belief that the Retake movement was trying to wrestle creative control.

The Retake movement is NOT about wrestling creative control.  I see us as the 'tip of the spear', where the spear is ALL the fans that doesn't like the ending.  We're trying to be loud, focused, draw attention to the issue.

The ISSUE being that the fruit loop ending (pick a color) couldn't have been a worse way to end this illustrious serious. 

Heaven forbid that this perception becomes an excuse to not change the ending.

You can use whatever nonsese you like to try and dress it up, but the fact is that the retake movement was about nothing more than trying to force bioware to make a new ending.

Of course. But not to wrestle creative control.

There is a difference.

There is.  However, changing it from what they presented to something different is, in fact, forcing them to alter their creative vision, and the act of BioWare doing so is relinquishing their creative control over the story.  

That movement doesn't want a specific ending, as far as I know, but they do want something---anything---else other than the one BioWare created, one that they're proud of. 

They are altering their vision with the Extended Cut. You of all people should understand what that actually means. More footage is an alteration.

And they've made a concession in that regard, though their current marketing for the extended cut implies that the destination of the journey will remain the same. You can add material into a conclusion (any scene, in fact) and still retain the same tone, tempo and overall point of it---but also add elements of exposition to fill in narrative gaps, ones that the author intended on the audience to fill for themselves (or interpret).

[Xx_Belzak_xX]

If the EC fails, oh well. Not a big deal. I've pretty much stopped caring. Besides, Guild Wars 2 is around the corner. Something else to care about that won't have a crap ending. I enjoyed Guild Wars, and I have no doubts that Guild Wars 2 will either meet or surpass my expectations. On, and your choices will matter. Because the people of ArenaNet still care.

[Taboo]

dreamgazer wrote...

And they've made a concession in that regard, though their current marketing for the extended cut implies that the destination of the journey will remain the same. You can add material into a conclusion (any scene, in fact) and still retain the same tone, tempo and overall point of it---but also add elements of exposition to fill in narrative gaps, ones that the author intended on the audience to fill for themselves (or interpret).

It doesn't matter. It's still a change. The hack job of editing that is the current ending is so unmarketable to a great majority of people I seriously begin to wonder what happened.

Any filling in of the gaps is an alteration. Two seconds can change the tone of a scene.

Unless Bioware has the mastery over images that Yasujiro Ozu did, I get a very strong vibe that the tempo will change. The destination will be the same but the route getting there will be clearer. One does not simply add things in and keep the same tempo. Nothing will ever match that schizoid bull rush to the end. Any addition will change the tempo.

You do not add information and not expect a change.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 11 mai 2012 - 10:04 .

[Trebor1969]

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Segameister wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I am also aware of his belief that the Retake movement was trying to wrestle creative control.

The Retake movement is NOT about wrestling creative control.  I see us as the 'tip of the spear', where the spear is ALL the fans that doesn't like the ending.  We're trying to be loud, focused, draw attention to the issue.

The ISSUE being that the fruit loop ending (pick a color) couldn't have been a worse way to end this illustrious serious. 

Heaven forbid that this perception becomes an excuse to not change the ending.

You can use whatever nonsese you like to try and dress it up, but the fact is that the retake movement was about nothing more than trying to force bioware to make a new ending.

Of course. But not to wrestle creative control.

There is a difference.

There is.  However, changing it from what they presented to something different is, in fact, forcing them to alter their creative vision, and the act of BioWare doing so is relinquishing their creative control over the story.  

That movement doesn't want a specific ending, as far as I know, but they do want something---anything---else other than the one BioWare created, one that they're proud of. 

They are altering their vision with the Extended Cut. You of all people should understand what that actually means. More footage is an alteration.

And they've made a concession in that regard, though their current marketing for the extended cut implies that the destination of the journey will remain the same. You can add material into a conclusion (any scene, in fact) and still retain the same tone, tempo and overall point of it---but also add elements of exposition to fill in narrative gaps, ones that the author intended on the audience to fill for themselves (or interpret).

My guess too !

[Apathy1989]

I am getting used to bioware being silent, and thus am waiting for EC.

Either it will suck, and I will be gone, or it will be good. Bioware have already shown they don't care for our input.

[Jonas TM]

Kunari801 wrote...

I expect the star-brats logic to make sense instead of the illogical mess it is now.
I expect it to fit into the ME lore.
I expect, even if Shepard dies, for closure with my team and LI.
I expect for my squad and crew not for abandon Shepard and leave him to die alone
I expect a way to SAVE the galaxy from the Reapers that doesn't destroy the Relays and Citadel
I expect for Control, Destroy, and Synthesis to be less repulsive then they are now via better explanations to their functions and outcomes. Higher EMS makes for better endings.

I WANT to avoid stabbing my allies in the back to Destroy the Reapers even if it means Shepard must die in their place

*snip*

With that I would say it is pretty close to my idea of what the EC should be.  I am alternating between hope (I am not very good at that) and sadness when it comes to my expectatiosn for the EC.  I have said many times I do not hate the endings, I don't much care for them but I don't hate them.  What I have a problem with is the lack of information given to us to draw conclusions and that the devs/writers didn't forsee the outcome. 

I mean with the relays destroyed whole systems of peopel will die if they need imported food/resources.  Any dextro/levo species on the wrong planet, dead.  The Normandy abandoning Shepard in the final moments.  All the relays being destroyed and our only info is the Alpha Relay and Codex and not expecting us to think we were wiping out whole systems.  How could they not see the backlash on this?  It boggles my mind that this wasn't forseen.

[Kesak12]

Apathy1989 wrote...

I am getting used to bioware being silent, and thus am waiting for EC.

Either it will suck, and I will be gone, or it will be good. Bioware have already shown they don't care for our input.

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

And they've made a concession in that regard, though their current marketing for the extended cut implies that the destination of the journey will remain the same. You can add material into a conclusion (any scene, in fact) and still retain the same tone, tempo and overall point of it---but also add elements of exposition to fill in narrative gaps, ones that the author intended on the audience to fill for themselves (or interpret).

It doesn't matter. It's still a change. The hack job of editing that is the current ending is so unmarketable to a great majority of people I seriously begin to wonder what happened.

Any filling in of the gaps is an alteration. Two seconds can change the tone of a scene.

Unless Bioware has the mastery over images that Yasujiro Ozu did, I get a very strong vibe that the tempo will change. The destination will be the same but the route getting there will be clearer. One does not simply add things in and keep the same tempo. Nothing will ever match that schizoid bull rush to the end. Any addition will change the tempo.

You do not add information and not expect a change.

There's a point where we'll have to agree to disagree: I've seen films with ten or fifteen minutes of content edited back in, and the overall rhythm, tone, and emotional resolution remained either mostly or entirely the same---with a few questions answered along the way.  Some of the mystery might (and likely will) be removed, and yes, you could consider that a change, but it won't necessarily detract from the overall destination that it's attempting to reach. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 11 mai 2012 - 10:18 .

[Fnork]

Is there even any point to asking questions ? They've already said they're not changing the ending so why bother ? At this point the best I'm hoping for is some proper epilogue and a sneak peek at what comes after ME3. I'm pretty sure I'll be disappointed on the second bit (by which I mean no sneak peek), but still, one can hope.

The EC might make me feel a bit better about the story and about the money I spent on the CE ... or it might not. I'm hoping it will but I don't really care much anymore. I'll definitely not buy any ME3 DLC and it's highly unlikely that I'll buy anything ME related ever again.

The ending will never work for me. I don't care how they twist it. Having settled the Geth - Quarian conflict and having both fleets at my side and fighting the reapers, I really fail to see how you can just sit there, wave a magic wand and presto-chango the story is now about how synthetics will always kill organics. After that the reapers turn out to be Starchilds sockpuppets (which cheapens them in my opinion), Shepard speaks his last words "I don't know", kills himself and then the galaxy goes to hell. Queue hard to explain crash scene and freaking Stargazer whom I never met and certainly don't care about. All that that scene really tells me is that some life will continue.

They develop and write a story with characters like this and then in the end blow it all up and my epilogue is "some life will continue". They ofcourse support this vision, one that I'm apparently too stupid to understand, so whatever.

If the DLC is good I'll feel a bit better. But I'll be moving on regardless. Until then I'll rant a bit more on BSN to get it out of my system.

Modifié par Fnork, 11 mai 2012 - 10:27 .

[N7Gold]

This. I don't know what to think right now. Part of me wants to abandon BioWare and the Mass Effect games, another part is begging me to give them one more chance. I don't know which part of me to listen to.

[Taboo]

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

And they've made a concession in that regard, though their current marketing for the extended cut implies that the destination of the journey will remain the same. You can add material into a conclusion (any scene, in fact) and still retain the same tone, tempo and overall point of it---but also add elements of exposition to fill in narrative gaps, ones that the author intended on the audience to fill for themselves (or interpret).

It doesn't matter. It's still a change. The hack job of editing that is the current ending is so unmarketable to a great majority of people I seriously begin to wonder what happened.

Any filling in of the gaps is an alteration. Two seconds can change the tone of a scene.

Unless Bioware has the mastery over images that Yasujiro Ozu did, I get a very strong vibe that the tempo will change. The destination will be the same but the route getting there will be clearer. One does not simply add things in and keep the same tempo. Nothing will ever match that schizoid bull rush to the end. Any addition will change the tempo.

You do not add information and not expect a change.

There's a point where we'll have to agree to disagree: I've seen films with ten or twenty minutes of content edited back in, and the overall rhythm, tone, and emotional resolution remained either mostly or entirely the same---with a few questions answered along the way.  Some of the mystery might (and likely will) be removed, and yes, you could consider that a change, but it won't necessarily detract from the overall destination that it's attempting to reach. 

You assume that Mass Effect is that kind of narrative. Mass Effect is not Solaris and Stalker. I know alternate version exist for both of those films and your answer is true there.

Ten or twenty missing minutes in a mainstream product is a recipe for disaster.

Most extended cuts are longer by a few minutes at most or in some cases seconds.

The ending as it stands feels like someone took a pair of scissors and cut out pieces and then stiched the film strip together again. The end result will be the same but the tempo will change.

[Slappy Ya Face]

Kesak12 wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

I am getting used to bioware being silent, and thus am waiting for EC.

Either it will suck, and I will be gone, or it will be good. Bioware have already shown they don't care for our input.

[Movitz]

*Sigh* I think we're all (I've been doing some myself) overanalyzing this whole situation, and should spend our time on more fulfilling and rewarding activities.

In the end (heh) it boils down to 2 alternatives:

1. The EC will fix the ending.

2. The EC will not fix the ending.

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume that Mass Effect is that kind of narrative. Mass Effect is not Solaris and Stalker. I know alternate version exist for both of those films and your answer is true there.

Ten or twenty missing minutes in a mainstream product is a recipe for disaster.

Most extended cuts are longer by a few minutes at most or in some cases seconds.

The ending as it stands feels like someone took a pair of scissors and cut out pieces and then stiched the film strip together again. The end result will be the same but the tempo will change.

Guess we'll have to wait and see. But it's pretty clear that BioWare approached ME3 with a cinematic eye, so I don't think my logic is as off-base as you might be led to think. Personally, I can see how they could properly use about fifteen minutes and appease a lot the people left irreperably bewildered by what they saw---and still get to the same conclusion that BioWare intended, assuming that the mechanics involving the Destroy ending are as indicative of their intentions as they appear in the game.  Whether you think those implementations would change or retain the tone of the scene will, I'm guessing, lay in the eye of the audience.

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

And they've made a concession in that regard, though their current marketing for the extended cut implies that the destination of the journey will remain the same. You can add material into a conclusion (any scene, in fact) and still retain the same tone, tempo and overall point of it---but also add elements of exposition to fill in narrative gaps, ones that the author intended on the audience to fill for themselves (or interpret).

It doesn't matter. It's still a change. The hack job of editing that is the current ending is so unmarketable to a great majority of people I seriously begin to wonder what happened.

Any filling in of the gaps is an alteration. Two seconds can change the tone of a scene.

Unless Bioware has the mastery over images that Yasujiro Ozu did, I get a very strong vibe that the tempo will change. The destination will be the same but the route getting there will be clearer. One does not simply add things in and keep the same tempo. Nothing will ever match that schizoid bull rush to the end. Any addition will change the tempo.

You do not add information and not expect a change.

Adding some scenes might help certain elements that aren't going to change anyway. Things like why Joker was fleeing and the fate of the Fleet.  But it's unlikely to help with elements that we want changed but are unlikely to happen.  EDI and the geth's deaths in destroy.  The absolute silliness of Synthesis (trying to come up with scenes to explain that may cause more than one writer's head to explode) the virtual inability to avoid Shepard's death in any of the endings.  

It sounds like all EC is going to add is context, fill in some blanks.  the actual story will remain unchanged, which will make a lot of people very unhappy 

[Reorte]

iakus wrote...

Adding some scenes might help certain elements that aren't going to change anyway. Things like why Joker was fleeing and the fate of the Fleet.  But it's unlikely to help with elements that we want changed but are unlikely to happen.  EDI and the geth's deaths in destroy.  The absolute silliness of Synthesis (trying to come up with scenes to explain that may cause more than one writer's head to explode) the virtual inability to avoid Shepard's death in any of the endings.  

It sounds like all EC is going to add is context, fill in some blanks.  the actual story will remain unchanged, which will make a lot of people very unhappy 

EDI and the geth dying isn't shown in Destroy so the EC could very easily do something about that if it wanted. The only completely irreedemble thing that couldn't be fixed by the EC is Synthesis. Everything else about the ending could be bodged around with a few extra scenes. It can't do enough to make a great ending but it could do enough to make an acceptable one, for me at least. The problem I've got is that I've not heard anything to tell me that BW aren't still standing by their trainwreck like a puppy proudly sitting by the mess its left on the living room carpet so I'm rather sceptical about them actually making much use of this opportunity to do anything other than rub our faces in it.

[lordnyx1]

Movitz wrote...

*Sigh* I think we're all (I've been doing some myself) overanalyzing this whole situation, and should spend our time on more fulfilling and rewarding activities.

In the end (heh) it boils down to 2 alternatives:

1. The EC will fix the ending.

2. The EC will not fix the ending.

Or the EC will merge with the ending creating a new framework... that will eventually fix the ending.

[Reorte]

Opsrbest wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware created something that part of the hardcore fanbase did not want.

And have suffered for it.

The root of the problem is right there.

Yup, and Hardcore entitlement has shown exactly why the game industry will always focus on the broader more casual players.

Because they'll accept any old nonsense. Sad but true.

[Taboo]

Herein lies the problem. All the information that has been coming out has conflicted with what others have said.

Patrick Weekes said that EDI can survive the Destroy ending, as the majority of writers came to that conclusion. I have no idea what to make of that. Michael Gamble has said that they can rework dialogue on the BSN itself. Nothing coming out of the offices really turns into anything cohesive and it's starting to get rather odd.

All I do know is that VA are in recording dialogue for the EC.

[Zix13]

Slappy Ya Face wrote...

Kesak12 wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

I am getting used to bioware being silent, and thus am waiting for EC.

Either it will suck, and I will be gone, or it will be good. Bioware have already shown they don't care for our input.

[Reorte]

lordnyx1 wrote...
Or the EC will merge with the ending creating a new framework... that will eventually fix the ending.

Are you suggesting that the EC might be Synthesis? Run for the hills!