626 réponses à ce sujet

[legion999]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

TheFinalDoctor wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Its funny how everyone moans about ME3 ending. But the truth is, at least it had an ending (not a good one mind you).

But then noone moans about Skyrim which has no ending. No that really put me off ever playing that game again.

Skyrim does have an ending to each storyline. In the main storyline you stop the freaking apocalypse Alduin started. saying there was no ending/closure is like saying Mass Effect 2 didn't ende because you could still go finish missions after you destroyed the Collecter base.

No you kill alduin, then you carry on with the next quest.  Thats not like in fallout 3 where you defeat the enclave and then sacrifice yourself for the greater good of the population of the capital wasteland.  Not like it at all.

Wut? You sacrifice yourself only if you don't have Broken Steel installed. And if you don't well tough luck. If only you had a robot companion or a ghoul companion or even a giant unkillable mutant who is immune to pretty much everything to enter the code for you.

[Johcande XX]

There are basically two different ways of viewing the ending, ours (the majority) and Kotakus (one guy). Then a Bioware higher-up looks at both reactions and says, "Yeah, the guy who liked it, that's what we meant from the beginning and everyone else just didn't get it, but it would have gone against artistic integrity to tell you all what we were going for from the beginning."

Seems legit.

[Festilence]

The idea of the whole game was the end, therefore the end of the end is allowed to be flawed is folly and I'm sure many agree with me.

[chemiclord]

_aLucidMind_ wrote...

They may not have said it outright, but they have most certainly insinuated it.

No.

YOU insinuated it, twisting that meaning from several PR releases that do not say anything of the sort.

[Zix13]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

I mean, I understand the Dev's anger at their failed vision, but honestly, when it's obvious you screwed up, tighten your belt and learn from it. No one likes someone who doesn't admit they're wrong. Everyone likes the guy who's wrong but learns from it and fixes their mistake.

But what vision is that?

The only thing I saw in the ending was pretty loud.

You must end the syn/org struggle. There are three means to achieve it. Only one of them is good and it is the path of final unity through trans-humanism.

Then you remember everything you've done and realise that what hes saying makes no sense. You've seen with your own eyes the most violent org/syn conflict in your cycle ended without any need to force unity. You've seen that the Geth and EDI were fully capable of interacting with organics and evolving the capacity to do so. If the source was different it doesn't matter if the end result is the same. To me, ME was clear, syn and organics are the same thing. The reapers exist as the anti-thesis to that.

So why am I helping them and why am I suddenly agreeing with them? Synthesis is abhorrent, why are you making out as if this fits with your game? That conflict is not inevitable, no conflict is inevitable, thats what all three games relentlessly hammered into you. Its as if they completely forgot at the ending what their game was about.

It would be like if William Hogarth had ended A Rakes Progress had ended with Tom Rakewell inheriting another fortune and lived out his days in peace. If art is a continuous series, like Hogarths progresses, you have to make sure your ending is in keeping with the moral of your tale. It doesn't matter whether people do, or do not get it if this is the case.

Damned if I know what their vision was. The fact that I'm not even sure what they were going for shows how poor their creation was.

[IanPolaris]

chemiclord wrote...

_aLucidMind_ wrote...

They may not have said it outright, but they have most certainly insinuated it.

No.

YOU insinuated it, twisting that meaning from several PR releases that do not say anything of the sort.

Sorry but when a vast number of people independantly come up with the idea that Bioware is talking down to them, then there is probably something to it.  You can't say "the ending is unapareciated" or "we respect the artistic integrity of our writers" without the near direct and unimistakeable implication that your audience is "too stupid/ignorant" to "get" your art.

BIG SHOCK!  People don't like being talked down to even by implication and Bioware/EA is more than smart enough (or have peopel who are more than smart enough) to know this before they made those statements.

-Polaris

[Apollo-XL5]

legion999 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

TheFinalDoctor wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Its funny how everyone moans about ME3 ending. But the truth is, at least it had an ending (not a good one mind you).

But then noone moans about Skyrim which has no ending. No that really put me off ever playing that game again.

Skyrim does have an ending to each storyline. In the main storyline you stop the freaking apocalypse Alduin started. saying there was no ending/closure is like saying Mass Effect 2 didn't ende because you could still go finish missions after you destroyed the Collecter base.

No you kill alduin, then you carry on with the next quest.  Thats not like in fallout 3 where you defeat the enclave and then sacrifice yourself for the greater good of the population of the capital wasteland.  Not like it at all.

Wut? You sacrifice yourself only if you don't have Broken Steel installed. And if you don't well tough luck. If only you had a robot companion or a ghoul companion or even a giant unkillable mutant who is immune to pretty much everything to enter the code for you.

Well i have never made my companions do that, since i saw that as sort of renegede choice.  Plus I have been told that you cant get fawkes (super mutant) to go in there, its either you or the girl soldier. thats the choice.

[chemiclord]

Again... what is a PR release SUPPOSED to say?

"Yeah, our writers are nitwits and we're gonna sack them the moment they fix the piece of **** they created?"

Come on. It said exactly what it was meant to say. That they support their employees (duh), and that they are disappointed that it didn't come across they way they intended (not an insult)" then followed by an announcement of an EC that is to help convey the message they were trying to make (whatever that message was supposed to be) better.

And fans decided to twist all those things into insults. I swear, it's like the fans WANT to be insulted by whatever Bioware says. I guess it makes it easier to get into a rage when you can convince yourself the other side is "talking down to you" or calling you an idiot.

[Jenonax]

chemiclord wrote...

_aLucidMind_ wrote...

They may not have said it outright, but they have most certainly insinuated it.

No.

YOU insinuated it, twisting that meaning from several PR releases that do not say anything of the sort.

Please, take another look at what Mr Webb has said in his twitter post.  Just look at this one example.  All I'm getting from it is just a sigh of self satisfaction.  Finally! Someone has appreciated my art!  Someone gets it. 

I'm interested to know what you thought Webb meant from that post as you clearly got a different meaning than I did.  Not having a go or anything, just curious.

EDIT - apologies didn't see your above post.  I want them, now, to say nothing.  Let the EC speak for itself.  All they're doing now is throwing hot oil onto the fire, sooner or later the BSN is going to explode.

Modifié par Jenonax, 12 mai 2012 - 12:31 .

[legion999]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

TheFinalDoctor wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Its funny how everyone moans about ME3 ending. But the truth is, at least it had an ending (not a good one mind you).

But then noone moans about Skyrim which has no ending. No that really put me off ever playing that game again.

Skyrim does have an ending to each storyline. In the main storyline you stop the freaking apocalypse Alduin started. saying there was no ending/closure is like saying Mass Effect 2 didn't ende because you could still go finish missions after you destroyed the Collecter base.

No you kill alduin, then you carry on with the next quest.  Thats not like in fallout 3 where you defeat the enclave and then sacrifice yourself for the greater good of the population of the capital wasteland.  Not like it at all.

Wut? You sacrifice yourself only if you don't have Broken Steel installed. And if you don't well tough luck. If only you had a robot companion or a ghoul companion or even a giant unkillable mutant who is immune to pretty much everything to enter the code for you.

Well i have never made my companions do that, since i saw that as sort of renegede choice.  Plus I have been told that you cant get fawkes (super mutant) to go in there, its either you or the girl soldier. thats the choice.

Renegade? Your companions can't be killed by radiation!

If you have Broken Steel installed Sgt RL-3, Fawkes or Charon can activate the purifier.

[Faded-Myth]

_aLucidMind_ wrote...
While I respect his opinion, him saying "someone finally gets it" can very easily come off as dismissing the complaints of others; those complaints, mind you, seem to be coming from the majority of every place I sign into online. While I am not everywhere online and realize that, it does give me fair reason to say "the majority". It can be taken as him calling those complaining about the ending are too stupid to understand, which is something BioWare PR has a habit of insinuating. .

I agree with this. That tweet didn't sound as much as a statement of an opinion as much as it did a dismissal of those who don't "get it". He didn't say anything along the lines of "This person shares the same perspective of the ending that I, and others, do." He said "Finally, someone gets it." It's painfully obvious he thinks everyone is missing the point, which I don't think is a fair accusation. People understand the entire game is the finale. That's not the concensus here amongst those angry with how the game ends. It's the way that finale changes the whole entire point of the series in the last 5 minutes that has everyone pissed off. If that's not obvious, then I honestly believe Mass Effect's developers are hiding too much behind their "artistic integrity" shields.

[thefallen2far]

Bull ****! Of all the underhanded, manipulative, disgusting buisness practices.... that's a load of ****. I've never thought that the lawsuit was justified until now. I figured it was an error of the storyteller of the extent of his story. It's like the producer claiming it was the best game of all time...that's just inaccurate. But 16 endings because the whole game is considered the "ending"... that's actually manipulation. Companies can't manipulate people like that. This is literally the first time I thought the complaint to the FEC might have a case.

I can't actually express my anger right now, so I'll just stick with bull****

[chemiclord]

Please, take another look at what Mr Webb has said in his twitter post.  Just look at this one example.  All I'm getting from it is just a sigh of self satisfaction.  Finally! Someone has appreciated my art!  Someone gets it. 

I'm interested to know what you thought Webb meant from that post as you clearly got a different meaning than I did.  Not having a go or anything, just curious.

Yeah.  It sounds like Webb is relieved that someone got the message they were trying to convey (even if I personally find that message to not be much of a message at all).  That's all that says.

Fans took that and decided that Webb was ALSO making an (apparently subtle) jab at the "idiot" fans who didn't see it the same way.  Just like they've been reading into and parsing every word anyone who works for Bioware has said since the rage began.

It's tiresome.  If Bioware felt you were idiots, they would also think you were too stupid to get any backhanded insults.  It would defeat the very purpose of trying to be subtle about it.

[xxskyshadowxx]

chemiclord wrote...

Again... what is a PR release SUPPOSED to say?

"Yeah, our writers are nitwits and we're gonna sack them the moment they fix the piece of **** they created?"

Come on. It said exactly what it was meant to say. That they support their employees (duh), and that they are disappointed that it didn't come across they way they intended (not an insult)" then followed by an announcement of an EC that is to help convey the message they were trying to make (whatever that message was supposed to be) better.

And fans decided to twist all those things into insults. I swear, it's like the fans WANT to be insulted by whatever Bioware says. I guess it makes it easier to get into a rage when you can convince yourself the other side is "talking down to you" or calling you an idiot.

"We thought we were doing the right thing, and wanted to try and take the story into a very interesting direction. We didn't have the time to be able to flesh it out as much as we wanted, but hoped the manner in which we presented it would make it more interesting, and get players talking about it and taking different views on the outcome. After seeing the outpouring of feedback that resulted from it, we do understand why some fans find the ending frustrating."

That's one way to say it without trying to offend consumers. Another thing they could have tried would have been not to boldly lie about the ending(s) prior to the release, especially those last few weeks, when they knew the ending wasn't at all what they were claiming it would be. That right there would have lessened the back lash quite a bit.

[Apollo-XL5]

legion999 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

TheFinalDoctor wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Its funny how everyone moans about ME3 ending. But the truth is, at least it had an ending (not a good one mind you).

But then noone moans about Skyrim which has no ending. No that really put me off ever playing that game again.

Skyrim does have an ending to each storyline. In the main storyline you stop the freaking apocalypse Alduin started. saying there was no ending/closure is like saying Mass Effect 2 didn't ende because you could still go finish missions after you destroyed the Collecter base.

No you kill alduin, then you carry on with the next quest.  Thats not like in fallout 3 where you defeat the enclave and then sacrifice yourself for the greater good of the population of the capital wasteland.  Not like it at all.

Wut? You sacrifice yourself only if you don't have Broken Steel installed. And if you don't well tough luck. If only you had a robot companion or a ghoul companion or even a giant unkillable mutant who is immune to pretty much everything to enter the code for you.

Well i have never made my companions do that, since i saw that as sort of renegede choice.  Plus I have been told that you cant get fawkes (super mutant) to go in there, its either you or the girl soldier. thats the choice.

Renegade? Your companions can't be killed by radiation!

If you have Broken Steel installed Sgt RL-3, Fawkes or Charon can activate the purifier.

I dont like broken steel.  I felt the original ending did the story justice.  That particluar dlc just retconned the ending and then gave us no ending, similar to skyrim.  

[chemiclord]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

"We thought we were doing the right thing, and wanted to try and take the story into a very interesting direction. We didn't have the time to be able to flesh it out as much as we wanted, but hoped the manner in which we presented it would make it more interesting, and get players talking about it and taking different views on the outcome. After seeing the outpouring of feedback that resulted from it, we do understand why some fans find the ending frustrating."

That's one way to say it without trying to offend consumers. Another thing they could have tried would have been not to boldly lie about the ending(s) prior to the release, especially those last few weeks, when they knew the ending wasn't at all what they were claiming it would be. That right there would have lessened the back lash quite a bit.

Okay... now ask yourself if that passes EA's censors.

Cut "We didn't have the time to be able to flesh it out as much as we wanted" right out.  No way in hell EA lets Bioware pin the blame on them.  

Oh, and "After seeing the outpouring of feedback that resulted from it, we do understand why some fans find the ending frustrating." isn't going to fly, either.  Corporate bosses are never going to allow shareholders to hear anything resembling "we made a mistake."  Full stop on that score.

Boom, half of your statement is on the cutting room floor, and you have... a bunch of neutral words that really don't say anything.

Basically, anything you would have wanted Bioware to say they would have no ability in hell to say.  So they had to go with a very general, very blase response that satisfied no one.  Welcome to the world of Public Relations.

Modifié par chemiclord, 12 mai 2012 - 12:42 .

[Mann42]

My goodness, he's the Project Franchise Manager for Mass Effect? 

So he's the reason Deception was inconsistent with the Mass Effect universe? 

And he thinks that a full featured, 30 hour game is supposed to be 100% an ending? Even though it has its own plot and climax? Is that why he thought it was okay to ship the game without an actual, complete ending? Was he okay with the technical flaws, obvious asset recycling, and introducing a deus ex machina into the end to resolve it in under 10 minutes?

Chris Priestly wrote...
And he is every bit as right in his opinion as you are in yours.

He's not only entitled to his opinion, his opinion is going to (partly) shape what happens to both the EC and the future of the franchise. Pretending that he's just 'some guy' that works at Bioware is disingenous. This guy has pull.  

Sure, he's not Casey or Mac, but don't pretend he's just a guy with an opinion. 

Any hope I had that Bioware actually understood why the ending was lacking is now gone. If the franchise manager's opinion is that ME3 is, in its entirety, so much of an ending that they didn't have to bother actually adding one to the game, then there really is no hope.

These are the people in charge now. I'm not expecting much from now on. 

Modifié par nexworks, 12 mai 2012 - 12:42 .

[Mathias]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Ok, stepping in here a second

1 - Duane is entitled to his opinion, just like you all are entitled to yours
2 - So is the writer of the article
3 - Duane is likely referencing that the person who wrote the article viewed the entire game of ME3 as an ending, which it is. This is what the team intended, which is the "gets it". Yes, you can discuss how successful we were or whatever, but this was the goal.
4 - Some people like the ending and they are welcome to express that here the same way that those who didn't like it express their opinions.
5 - Just because Duane does or doesn't feel a certain way doesn't mean anything about the Extended Cut.

I think number 3 is total nonsense. It sounds like the team is once again making excuses so they don't look as bad. I mean i can accept it if they said the last 2 hours of the game was the ending. Hell i'd be willing to roll with it if they said everything starting from the assault on the cerberus base is the ending.

But the whole game?

No. Just no. So the intro of the game is also part of the ending to the game? What? I've never heard of a 30 hour ending  

[xxskyshadowxx]

chemiclord wrote...

Please, take another look at what Mr Webb has said in his twitter post.  Just look at this one example.  All I'm getting from it is just a sigh of self satisfaction.  Finally! Someone has appreciated my art!  Someone gets it. 

I'm interested to know what you thought Webb meant from that post as you clearly got a different meaning than I did.  Not having a go or anything, just curious.

Yeah.  It sounds like Webb is relieved that someone got the message they were trying to convey (even if I personally find that message to not be much of a message at all).  That's all that says.

Fans took that and decided that Webb was ALSO making an (apparently subtle) jab at the "idiot" fans who didn't see it the same way.  Just like they've been reading into and parsing every word anyone who works for Bioware has said since the rage began.

It's tiresome.  If Bioware felt you were idiots, they would also think you were too stupid to get any backhanded insults.  It would defeat the very purpose of trying to be subtle about it.

Someone earlier pointed out that he's the same fellow who had Tweeted something like "Just saw 21 Jump Street, good movie but I didn't like the ending. Where do I send my cupcakes?" or something to that effect. Which is a definate jab at "idiot fans," and it's also ironic, since he also is someone who doesn't "get it."

Had the producers of 21 Jump Street claimed in months of PR releases that the movie was a gritty, American action thriller starring Liam Neeson who plays a former CIA operative who sets about tracking down his daughter after she is kidnapped by human traffickers, and of course after having watched it, the movie proved to be nothing they had claimed, then he could make the cup cake comment without it being a petty jab at "idiot fans. But in fact, 21 Jump Street was exactly what it's producers and writers claimed it would be, unlike the ME3 "ending" (or whole game at this point), which was the opposite of what PR statement claimed it would be, and as such his comment was nothing more than a petty jab.

Modifié par xxskyshadowxx, 12 mai 2012 - 12:47 .

[legion999]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

TheFinalDoctor wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Its funny how everyone moans about ME3 ending. But the truth is, at least it had an ending (not a good one mind you).

But then noone moans about Skyrim which has no ending. No that really put me off ever playing that game again.

Skyrim does have an ending to each storyline. In the main storyline you stop the freaking apocalypse Alduin started. saying there was no ending/closure is like saying Mass Effect 2 didn't ende because you could still go finish missions after you destroyed the Collecter base.

No you kill alduin, then you carry on with the next quest.  Thats not like in fallout 3 where you defeat the enclave and then sacrifice yourself for the greater good of the population of the capital wasteland.  Not like it at all.

Wut? You sacrifice yourself only if you don't have Broken Steel installed. And if you don't well tough luck. If only you had a robot companion or a ghoul companion or even a giant unkillable mutant who is immune to pretty much everything to enter the code for you.

Well i have never made my companions do that, since i saw that as sort of renegede choice.  Plus I have been told that you cant get fawkes (super mutant) to go in there, its either you or the girl soldier. thats the choice.

Renegade? Your companions can't be killed by radiation!

If you have Broken Steel installed Sgt RL-3, Fawkes or Charon can activate the purifier.

I dont like broken steel.  I felt the original ending did the story justice.  That particluar dlc just retconned the ending and then gave us no ending, similar to skyrim.  

The original ending where your radiation immune companions refuse to help you resulting in either the PC or Sarah Lyons dying. And open world games don't need an ending where you can't play any more.

[Jenonax]

chemiclord wrote...

Please, take another look at what Mr Webb has said in his twitter post.  Just look at this one example.  All I'm getting from it is just a sigh of self satisfaction.  Finally! Someone has appreciated my art!  Someone gets it. 

I'm interested to know what you thought Webb meant from that post as you clearly got a different meaning than I did.  Not having a go or anything, just curious.

Yeah.  It sounds like Webb is relieved that someone got the message they were trying to convey (even if I personally find that message to not be much of a message at all).  That's all that says.

Fans took that and decided that Webb was ALSO making an (apparently subtle) jab at the "idiot" fans who didn't see it the same way.  Just like they've been reading into and parsing every word anyone who works for Bioware has said since the rage began.

It's tiresome.  If Bioware felt you were idiots, they would also think you were too stupid to get any backhanded insults.  It would defeat the very purpose of trying to be subtle about it.

Finally, someone gets it.

You're correct, I think Mr Webb is relieved someone is on the same page as Bioware.

But the wording of his tweet is atrocious.

He could have said something much less inflammatory.  Something like, this is what we were trying to convey.  Something that doesn't shift the blame.

Finally, someone gets it.

If you have to explain the meaning of whatever you were saying, you put it across badly.  If people didn't get it, then that is a failure of the writer.  I know, I am one.  If people who read my work come back and say we don't get it, we don't understand, that's my fault.  

I don't get it.  I have serious doubts I will ever get it.  I almost don't care about the ending anymore, but the PR surrounding it atm is mindboggling.

Thumper from Bambi keeps popping up in my head whenever I see a member of Bioware make another ill informed statement such as this "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."

Childish example, yes.  But seriously, they know people are annoyed.  Why would they say anything at all, let alone something as inflammatory as this is being perceived to be?  In all honesty, I think they should just shut up and wait for the EC to do the talking for them.  Damage control and all that.

[chemiclord]

So... let me get this straight. They shouldn't say anything at all?

Yet I see thread after thread here of "WHY ISN'T BIOWARE TALKING TO US!!!!! RAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!"

Can we at least figure out what we want from these guys before we start taking them to task for not giving it to us?

[GeoFukari]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

TheFinalDoctor wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Its funny how everyone moans about ME3 ending. But the truth is, at least it had an ending (not a good one mind you).

But then noone moans about Skyrim which has no ending. No that really put me off ever playing that game again.

Skyrim does have an ending to each storyline. In the main storyline you stop the freaking apocalypse Alduin started. saying there was no ending/closure is like saying Mass Effect 2 didn't ende because you could still go finish missions after you destroyed the Collecter base.

No you kill alduin, then you carry on with the next quest.  Thats not like in fallout 3 where you defeat the enclave and then sacrifice yourself for the greater good of the population of the capital wasteland.  Not like it at all.

Wut? You sacrifice yourself only if you don't have Broken Steel installed. And if you don't well tough luck. If only you had a robot companion or a ghoul companion or even a giant unkillable mutant who is immune to pretty much everything to enter the code for you.

Well i have never made my companions do that, since i saw that as sort of renegede choice.  Plus I have been told that you cant get fawkes (super mutant) to go in there, its either you or the girl soldier. thats the choice.

Renegade? Your companions can't be killed by radiation!

If you have Broken Steel installed Sgt RL-3, Fawkes or Charon can activate the purifier.

I dont like broken steel.  I felt the original ending did the story justice.  That particluar dlc just retconned the ending and then gave us no ending, similar to skyrim.  

Thats the point of Bethesda games though.... They are about exploring the environment. And while they are working on Story stuff in their games now, It'll be a while until they get to the level of Bioware.

If you don't like that type of game, don't play it.

[Mann42]

chemiclord wrote...

So... let me get this straight. They shouldn't say anything at all?

Yet I see thread after thread here of "WHY ISN'T BIOWARE TALKING TO US!!!!! RAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!"

Can we at least figure out what we want from these guys before we start taking them to task for not giving it to us?

No, we want them to talk TO us. Not sigh at us, or act exhasperated, or talk at us, or tell us we don't get it.

We want them to actually TALK TO US. This is not that. This is talking AT us, letting us know we don't get it, but the lead editor of a site his company pays to display ads does. 

[Jenonax]

chemiclord wrote...

So... let me get this straight. They shouldn't say anything at all?

Yet I see thread after thread here of "WHY ISN'T BIOWARE TALKING TO US!!!!! RAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!"

Can we at least figure out what we want from these guys before we start taking them to task for not giving it to us?

Its my opinion, my friend, no one elses.  I don't pretend to speak for everyone.  Some people want them to say a lot, I think it would be a terrible idea.

Its gone way beyond the point now where I think them saying anything will have a positive effect.

Like I said, in my opinion, they should keep quiet, release the EC and then we'll see.

Modifié par Jenonax, 12 mai 2012 - 12:54 .