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So Duane Webb says that Steven Totilo "gets it" re: ME3 ending


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#526
generalleo03

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Nimrodell wrote...

@generalleo03: Very nicely written. Lets see what'll happen in EC and what kind of writing miracle will or will not writers pull out (again, I still don't get how last 10 minutes actually came to be - just how).


Thanks, like I said, I'm not optimistic.  If they chose to keep the exact same motive, it won't fit the narrative no matter how much they want it to.  

As far as the last 10 minutes, I'm just not sure.  I've read that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson did it by themselves, but I just find it hard to believe there was literally no input from anyone else.  I'm inclined to think that they planned an ending like this, but didn't ask themselves, or at least ask it in time to change it, "does this ending fit the story?" until after the point of no return.  That seems more likely to me.  I think they should have just cut to black after anderson, would have been better.

#527
generalleo03

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Isichar wrote...

generalleo03 wrote...
*Snip*


Great post.

A while back I heard a quote from bioware saying something along the lines of "We are just lucky edi and the geth were so understanding" which for a series that asks you to read between the lines is pretty insulting.


Thanks.  I missed that one.  There is a theory about friendly AI being important for real life development.  However, Mass Effect is a story, not real life.  It is bad story telling if I must insert external knowledge of the concept to even make any sense of it.  The fact there are not AI singularities in Mass Effect's main plot is the writers telling me it isn't important.  This is lit 101.  That's beyond reading between the lines, that's writing a new chapter to the story.

#528
generalleo03

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FFHAuthor wrote...

generalleo03 wrote...

Alright I need to rant. I've thought about this a bit and come to some conclusions. I'll try to address this as best I can. I largely place pro-endingers into 3 categories. This will not address them all. If you are missed sorry, I don't have the time to argue all possible points. But I should hit most of them with this.


Let me just say General, excellent post there and very well put about the supposed undertones to the ending that were not present, but remember another aspect that's been used to argue for a 'Technological Singularity' rationatle for the ending; Javik.  Of all the characters in the game, he is the only one that provides a consistent tone in dealing with the Synthetic/Organic issue, and many people point to the many statements he makes as being supportive of the Technological Singularity and the inevitibility of Organic/Synthetic Conflict, but just like the side quests in ME2 that reference this concept, Javik is bundled as a DLC character.

It seems disturbing that the only character which consistently argues for the point that your entire game trilogy is trying to make isn't inculded or considered central enough to the story to be incuded in the game. (well...at least incuded and accesable!)


I agree Javik provides more arguments in favor of the technological singularity being important.  Or at least a sub plot of it.  But like you said, he isn't required, and can be completely ignored.  I'm not even sure he really covers that beyond "we must kill all machines."  His motive seems to be more out of fear or rage rather than an intellectual conclusion based on the facts of the technological singularity.  He's definately anti-synthetic, but I'm not sure he actually provides any of the background exploration of the technological singularity (IE does he talk about synthetics outpacing organics?  I remember him saying the protheans beat their rebellion, not exectly outpacing them there...)

On a more practical point, you're totally right, if it was important it should be required, the fact he can be skipped is the writers telling me it isn't important.  

Also as an aside, there are a lot of synthetic-organic conflicts in mass effect, there are also synthetic-synthetic conflics and organic-organic conflicts.  For the technological singularity to work, it has to be a direct effect of being synthetic, not a result of a species that has other goals and happens to be synthetic.  I can't think of a real conflict in the main plot that underscores this.

#529
Cyne

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"finally someone gets it?" Oh wow, so the vast majority were too thick-skulled to get it. Nice.

If most of the ME staff feel the same as this guy, no wonder the ending isn't being changed. They think the message just wasn't clear for us stupid people, so we need it clarified. God knows the ending couldn't have possibly sucked due it's own failings, right?

Besides, even if the whole thing was one long ending (which it wasn't. Some story arcs were wrapped up nicely, like the Genophage story, but others, like Kai Leng, had their origins and resolutions in this "ending"), the "ending of the ending" still wouldn't make sense because it brought up new elements (eg. mass relays exploding) which it then failed to resolve. SO the ending of the ending in itself is a kind of beginning.

#530
T41rdEye

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Those of you who were successfully indocrinated by Harbinger are all over this forum.

Don't feel too bad, hell even Saren was fooled.

#531
DistantUtopia

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antares_sublight wrote...

This comment shows that the Extended Cut is going to be extremely disappointing.

BioWare went from being one of my fav developers to one I will avoid now.



Eeyup...

#532
M0keys

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Taboo-XX wrote...

mcgreggers99 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

mcgreggers99 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's all starting to fall into place..........

They keep tying nooses when they do this......

Why?


Taboo you keep commenting that you have theories about the whole EC and that things are falling into place.

Do you believe that they are going to screw up the extended cut on purpose or something just to spite the overzealous fans?


Something far worse.

Something I was worried about since this debacle began.

This comment only furthers that notion......

Wait a bit longer.


I want your insight......to quote the thundercats...give me SIGHT BEYOND SIGHT B)


It's not good. At all.

You don't want to know anything.

But you will.


let me guess.. big experiment to see if we'd shell out bucks for an actual ending just to rip us off some more, but then it went so badly they had to go ahead and give us the real thing for free otherwise they're totally screwed?

lots of people have thought of that before, and it's definitely the worst possibly intention of this whole thing.

#533
zovoes

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M0keys wrote...
let me guess.. big experiment to see if we'd shell out bucks for an actual ending.

oh god i hope not, i think that would be the lowest point in this whole mess if true. if games start moving that way they will die off for sure.

#534
Terror_K

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Chris Priestly wrote...

3 - Duane is likely referencing that the person who wrote the article viewed the entire game of ME3 as an ending, which it is. This is what the team intended, which is the "gets it". Yes, you can discuss how successful we were or whatever, but this was the goal.


Funny... before ME3's release, you guys were all going on about how ME3 was "the best place to start" rather than an ending.

#535
nrcrane

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"The manner that the game forces closure upon the players is more akin to shoving an unwanted guest out of one's home. You're unwelcome. Goodbye."
 
I never was able to explain just what it was about the ending of ME3 that just just struck me as wrong, but I believe that the above quote sums up the many issues in one sentence rather niceley.

Modifié par nrcrane, 13 mai 2012 - 06:04 .


#536
Lankist

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There isn't much of a point of arguing these kinds of semantics. I'll accept that the whole of ME3 is the "ending" and revise the statement "I do not like the ending" to read: "I do not like the ending of the ending."

The sentiment remains quite clear. The semantics of what is and is not an "ending" are irrelevant, as it's obvious that it's those last moments that most folks are dissatisfied with. What one would prefer to label those moments as shorthand is merely that: a label. A rose by any other name, etc. etc. Asserting that you can't dislike the ending because the whole of the game is the ending is getting into some weird philosophical territory that will spiral into the point where nobody in the discussion even knows what to call anything anymore.

Modifié par Lankist, 13 mai 2012 - 06:15 .


#537
Mcfly616

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This just let's me know they have some kind of deep rooted arrogance....that or they are really full of it......
Saying the game is "one big ending" is ridiculous lol

So what are you saying Bioware? That, since its one big ending, the ending of it isn't that important?


THAT IS THE ****TIEST EXCUSE EVER!!!

That's like going out to dinner, and having a decent appetizer, a great entree....and then when they bring out your dessert and the ice cream you ordered is completely melted, the waitress goes, "well, atleast your entree was great"......


Pathetic.....what a cop out


Bioware sold out

#538
The Vanquished1

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nrcrane wrote...

"The manner that the game forces closure upon the players is more akin to shoving an unwanted guest out of one's home. You're unwelcome. Goodbye."
 
I never was able to explain just what it was about the ending of ME3 that just just struck me as wrong, but I believe that the above quote sums up the many issues in one sentence rather niceley.


Yeah pretty much.  Seemed like we were invited for dinner and were rushed out the door before we could finish the meal.  Spot on what that dude said.  It was simply a rude gesture as if to say "here is the ending now get out of here, beat it, scram!."

#539
Blue Liara

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That is such a massive cop out. Ugh. You can't pull that crap. Oh it was one ending it was so lovely and nice.

You could say that about any book or game that is the last in its series. This is a hugh pile of crap to go along with the Artistic Integrity BS.

#540
The Vanquished1

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I look at it this way. I think along the lines that I bought ME3 like a person would buy a piece of commissioned art. I expected the game to follow through, reflect all nuances of our previous choices and tie things up and give us a chance to battle the Reapers/Harbinger once and for all. What we got was what they wanted us to have, and to boot, it wasn't even what they advertised and raved about leading up to release.

#541
ElectronicPostingInterface

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Really?

It's May. A consensus has been reached. Work on the extended ending.

#542
Jaron Oberyn

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Lol obviously Bioware still doesn't get it.

-Polite

#543
Book of Mazarbul

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What a terrible, shortsighted, pandering article. The ending of Mass Effect 3 betrays everything the series stood for with cheap, non sequitur endings that aren't "bittersweet" or "artistic" but shallow and technophobic. It's like Bioware became scared at the cosmic potential and bleak secular brilliance of the world they created, and reverted to boneheaded nostalgia for an insular past without space travel, intergalactic culture, and racial dilemmas. No ending DLC can save it, unless it completely revamps everything after Shepard ascends on the light platform. Starbaby is the whiny, snotty antithesis of the themes of the franchise and if he's still in the game, we should be able to biotically strangle him with a renegade interrupt.

Ultimately, we're going to get some cheap cutscenes with a dumb explanation for how space society can continue - if it can go on, what was the point of wrecking the citadel and relays? Weak attempt at drama. So face it people - Bioware is out of touch, and Mass Effect is dead. Just move on to better things. Play The Witcher 2. Read & watch Game of Thrones.

#544
The Vanquished1

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There are some intelligent folks here on these forums. Some great examples of humor, which in my opinion speak more of good balance of soul and humility. Alot of the fans of Mass Effect that were at the Midnight release where I went were really nice and astute. We all talked of what we hoped for the series and among other things, sports and sci-fi in general. Many were in their late 20's to mid 30's and we had a great time. To say that many of us who are critical of the ending just don't get it or to even imply it or discount our concern of such is just indicative of someone who is out of touch with their fanbase.

I don't mind growing apart and walking away if their core values and vision have changed to where they don't have consideration for those who invest in their works. They have every right to make those decisions but they have best stop misleading folks before a products release and chastising them after release if we don't approve. They must remember that we buy their products in good faith and trust that they deliver on what they promise and if they don't then it's a real easy way to lose customers.

#545
The Vanquished1

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Varus Praetor wrote...

What a surprise, everyone who likes ME3 "gets it" and everyone who thinks the ending is a steaming pile of crap are morons.


Bravo!!  :)

#546
Book of Mazarbul

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^^Sadly their creative well has run dry and their 'artistic integrity' is a simplistic letdown. Dragon Age 3 has been confirmed to be in the style of DA2, ergo it will be equally terrible. No Mass Effect spinoff can work with the canon-wrecking endings, and they clearly gave up on KOTOR when they pushed out a shoddy sequel and then betrayed a potential unifying third installment for the muck that is TOR. The good folks on these forums ought to refocus their allegiance to CD Projekt - a game company that has proved its commitment to gamers and gaming instead of backstabbing them at every turn.

#547
The Vanquished1

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I guess this is the new way of business.
Image IPB

#548
Muhkida

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Duane Webb has the right to say his opinion about the ending, but to say (insert name here) "Finally, someone get's it" is just asking for trouble. Especially considering how touchy the topic is at the moment.

#549
DangerSandler

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Xellith wrote...

If nobody can "get" your art - then you failed hard as an artist.



#550
Guest_MissNet_*

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generalleo03 wrote...

Alright I need to rant. I've thought about this a bit and come to some conclusions. I'll try to address this as best I can. I largely place pro-endingers into 3 categories. This will not address them all. If you are missed sorry, I don't have the time to argue all possible points. But I should hit most of them with this. Let us start with:

1. People who misinterpreted the genre of Mass Effect. Let me state this categorically, if you are in this category, you are wrong. However, let me say up front, you are NOT an idiot. You have merely missed some important facts, and came to the wrong conclusion. Much like Lamarck during the time of Darwin, your ideas are not stupid, they do have some factual bases. I want to apologize up front if this comes across as condescending. It isn't meant to be. All my condescension is for people in category 2 :).

Let's start here, Mass Effect is NOT Comsic Horror. For the uninitiated, Cosmic Horror is a fantasy/fiction concept pioneered by H. P. Lovecraft, with his recognizable villain (if he can be called a villain) Cthuhlu. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmicism ) So let me admit up front, the Reapers are definately a shout out to Cthuhlu. They have a similar appearance (tentacles), names (Old One vs Old Machines), and until the last 10 minutes, a similar motive (or lack there of) to Cthuhlu. But contrary to your thoughts, they are not Giant Death Robot Space Cthuhlus. How do I know this? Because you killed Soverign in Mass Effect 1. This fact alone, that the insignificant specs of the Milky Way Galaxy killed an Old One, removes Mass Effect from the realms of real Cosmic Horror.

Alright, so Mass Effect isn't pure H. P. Lovecraftian Cosmic Horror. It could still be a lighter form of it right? No, it isn't. THE key theme of Cosmic Horror is nihilism. The insignificance of human toil. The vastness of the Universe makes everything and anything we do, could do, or ever will do completely pointless. This has to be present for Cosmic Horror. If it isn't present, it isn't Cosmic Horror. Mass Effect does not have this anywhere except the last 10 minutes. Your actions continually have an effect throughout the trilogy. You killed Sovereign in 1, stopped the collectors in 2, and provided victories against the Reapers in 3. Far from insignificant, your actions have discernable and real effects in the story. The only time your actions don't matter is the end. And that is one of the key reasons the ending is bad, genre switch. There is no reason at all to expect a Cosmic Horror ending to this trilogy. I am not saying Cosmic Horror is bad, far from it, I'm saying Mass Effect isn't Cosmic Horror, and that's whay a Cosmic Horror ending doesn't work.
All that being said, I generally don't have a problem with these people. Like I said before they are not stupid. They're mistaken. Mass Effect directly follows the Hero's Journey (for the uninitiated http://en.wikipedia..../Hero's_journey ). It is a Hero's Journey set in space with an antagonist that draws from Cosmic Horror. My point here isn't to argue that it is a Hero's Journey, but merely to point out that it is NOT Cosmic Horror. So stop arguing that defeating the Reapers is impossible. In the words of Inigo Montoya "That word, I don't think that word means what he thinks it means". Impossible has a definition:

1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen

This doesn't mean unlikely. It means it can't happen. Humans defeating Old Ones in classical H. P. Lovecraftian sense is impossible. Defeating Reapers happens multiple times. Let me place once scenario for you, the Reapers come at us one at a time. Even the most ardent pro-reaper person must admit we have a very high chance of winning that one. In fact, it's what Shepard actually does. So quit arguing that it can't happen. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No.

On to the second category!
2. People who think I don't understand enough or know enough to "get" the ending. These people start with a very condescending statement. It's my lack of knowledge or aplication of knowledge that causes me to misunderstand and dislike the ending. So let me reply with the same condescnention.
These people argue that things like the Drake Equation (http://en.wikipedia..../Drake_equation), the Kardashev Scale (http://en.wikipedia....Kardashev_scale) , and the Techonological Singularity (http://en.wikipedia....cal_singularity) make perfect sense of Mass Effect. So let me start with this. One very important rule in all story telling (Movies, books, games, oral history) is "If it isn't in the story, it isn't important". Good editors don't remove important stuff from a story. I'm not going to argue that stories don't require some grounding, they do. But this is established quickly, like "does gravity work here?", "Do bullets hurt?", etc. This is usually done in the first few minutes of the story. Mass effect does this grounding in Eden Prime. However, higher level concepts, like Kardashev Scales, Drake Equations, etc. that are not commonly known, must be explicitely stated. There is absolutely no reference to either of those in the Mass Effect series. As there is no evidence other that the people who state it's important's feelings to support their importance, I can dismiss them with the same lack of evidence. If it takes no evidence to create a proposition, it takes no evidence to dismiss it. The explicit lack of reference, is even evidence of its lack of importance, or are you really arguing the Author's didn't know them even though they are so important to understanding the ending?
The Technological Singularity is different though. There is evidence of this in the story, so it will take more for me to work past it. The key points of the technological singularity are that, once created, AI will outpace humans (organics) in intelligence, strength, civilization, and wipe us all out. AI lacks empathy. Scientists have long postulated that the reason human's have morality at all is empathy. We can imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes and thus invision what it would be like. Therefore we can figure out what we don't want to happen. In fact, empathy is so important that a lack of it is considered a mental disorder (it makes one a Psycopath). Since AI doesn't care about us by some intrinsic order of its being, it will view us as just more parts of the universe, like rocks. It could wipe us out as a means to prevent natural disasters, or harvest us as resources. It could even take its main task, such as building widgets, too far and wipe us out in an attempt to optimize its goal. Those are key points that need to be explored for the technological singularity to make sense.

So let me state up front, it is not a lack of knowledge of the technological singularity that has people pissed. Do you really want to argue that the set of people playing Mass Effect and the set of people who have seen "The Matrix" are really disjoint? Come on here. There is a ton of popular references to the technological singularity in all forms of narrative. Movies like "The Matrix", "I, Robot", "The Terminator", stories like "The Evitable Conflict", "The Last Question" by Asimov, "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream". And those are what I can come up with off the top of my head. People playing Mass Effect are plenty familiar with the concept of the Technological Singularity, even if they cannot tell you the name of the concept. The problem is that they were not told to care about the concept in the entire story arc of Mass Effect (even including the end). Let's start with this, there are 3 Artificial Intelligences explored in the main story Mass Effect. The Geth, EDI, and the Reapers.

The Geth start out as villains that could easily have explored the Technological Singularity. In Mass Effect 1, they are villains working for Sovereign to kill organics. Their motives are mostly unknown, and could have easily degenerated into an exploration of the Technological Singularity. However, that exploration all falls apart with one word: Legion. The Geth are not a uniform species of AI's bent on harvesting us (though the reapers are!). They are a civilization. They have internal conflicts, Geth vs. Heretic Geth. They have goals like becoming strong with their own two hands, not by taking the Reapers tech. They compromise said goals. The Geth are an exploration of the awakening of consciousness. Consciousness is considered one of the great unlikely events in Human evolution, and the Geth are a direct exploration of how that could happen. The problem is, nowhere in any of the full Geth story line do any of the main points of the Technological Singularity get explored. Where is the indifference to organics? Sure, they are isolationist, but they aren't indifferent. Even without the morning war exploration in Mass Effect 3, the Geth are not a representation of the Technological Singularity, they are directly referenced as a species that happens to be synthetic, not a representation of a species defined by the fact it is synthetic. By the end of Mass Effect 3, they Geth are fully actuallized real people who make decisions based on information, survival, and empathy. Even more so if they survive, they become full individuals. The presentation of the Geth is one of a civilization comming in its own within the galactic community, not one of an Artificial Intelligence becoming dispassionate and logical. And that doesn't even include the Morning War, which was not started by the AI attempting to wipe out its masters, but by the Quarian fear of what they Geth were and could do. The Geth are NOT an exploration of any concepts of the technological singularity.

EDI is another AI that basically comes to its own within the Mass Effect community. Granted I thought it was kind of a stretch to make EDI the AI you "defeated" at luna in Mass Effect 1, that also happened to give you an upgrade (Booh Yah!). But let's take that as a part of the story, since it was on a main quest. She starts out, like the Geth, as something that could have explored the Technological Singularity. In Mass Effect 1, she fights organics. However, in Mass Effect 2, she is a full fledged crew member. She has a sense of humor, and interacts and grows. Hell she's responsible for some of the funniest lines! "I like the sight of humans on their knees", "This is all Joker's fault. What a tool he was. I have to spend all day computing pi because he plugged in the Overlord.". Comon, you laughed. We all did. However, she wasn't fully unleashed until the end of Mass Effect 2, so she could still explore the technological singularity. But she didn't. Once unleashed she didn't because impassionate, logical, and indifferent. She became MORE human. MORE a part of the crew. A dispassionate AI wouldn't go to the collector base, wouldn't help them defeat them. Too much risk. In Mass Effect 3 EDI becomes basically human, and I don't mean she gets a body. I mean she makes decisions we all do. What's important to me, survival or my friends? Selfishness or Selflessness? Reguardless of her choices, the fact she is making them means she's becoming human. She can even start a relationship for goodness sake! She is another exploration of an AI becoming more and more human.

Notice a pattern here? The Geth and EDI both provide direct evidence that the real difference between synthetics and organics is actually pretty small. They are an exploration of awakening consciousness. Most importantly, they are NOT SCARY. They don't explore the technological singularity in any way. They don't state how AI outpaces organics, they don't show anything remotely like that. In fact, this exploration is completely contrary to the technological singularity. The Techonological Singularity requires that AI cannot coexist with organics. To explore AI that can for 99 hours, then say, whoops can't work is a conflicting theme that makes a bad ending.

The last AI explored are the Reapers themselves. Only they aren't. The motives of the Reapers are not explored until the last 10 minutes. And these people argue that the 14 lines of dialogue at the end completely put the Reapers as preventing the technological singularity? wait, scratch that, a lot of those lines are explaining what the "crucible could do", so its not even 14 lines. If you are telling me you can completely explain the motives of the Reapers in 7 lines or fewer of dialogue, then let me tell you that you are a moron. Also, it takes BALLS to argue that the Reapers are preventing the technological singularity, when they are literally the only AI in the story that could even be argued to explore the concept of the technological singularity at all! They could be argued to represent the eventuallity of that very concept!
Now, I do feel it necessary to address a point here. There are definately side quests that explore the Technological Singularity. The rogue citadel AI in Mass Effect 1, the loki mech saga in Mass Effect 2. However, these side quests don't affect the main plot, and can be completely skipped without any hinderance to the story. If the technological singularity was really an important concept to understand the Reapers, then it should NOT be skippable, and should be forced. If the writer's don't force you to care about it, IE it doesn't affect the main plot, then it is de facto evidence it isn't really important.

The problem here isn't that the technological singularity couldn't explain some of this, the problem is that the story doesn't explore that concept. You are literally telling the writer's of Mass Effect that it is okay to NOT tell you the story, that you will fill in the blanks that are missing to force it to make sence, and they call them geniuses for it. You are a sucker, and I don't care if you take offense to that or not. The narrative of the main plot of Mass Effect and missions that effect the main plot don't care about the Technological Singularity, and if you have to add external information into the narrative to force the motive of the main antagonist to make sense, that is a definition of narrative failure.

Let me also say this, it doesn't matter if the catalyst is a billion years old, and spent two hours recanting all the time's AI attacked organics. The point is NARRATIVE! The story doesn't explore those concepts. It doesn't matter if he *could* know everything, what matters is the story being told. The technological singularity does not belong as a part of the ending to Mass Effect. This is why the Extended Cut will suck. There needs to be complete thematic rewrite to the end to force it to make sense. Either that, or a complete rewrite of the other 99 hours of Mass Effect.

on to !
3. People who enjoyed the emotional experience. I actually don't have much of a problem with these people. They are reveling in the fact that they had an emotional experience with the game. I might jokingly call them robots, because games have been evoking emotional experiences for a while now, but they may not play many games. However, I do feel in necessary to make a point, or rather to explain the point of the ending. The only constant among all endings is the death of Shepard. The ending is a direct appeal to the player. It is going after the collateral emotion of killing off the player's representative in the universe. I'm not saying this is bad in of itself, it is just a bad narrative device if that is the only point of the ending. Which given how little sense the rest of the ending actually makes, it becomes the only point of the ending. That said, an ending can be both bad from a narrative point of view AND a satisfying emotional experience. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Which is why these people typically don't argue that the ending is good, just that they enjoyed it. However, I do want to point out that if you actively argue against us anti-endingers you are explicitely telling me your emotional experience is the "correct" emotional response to the ending. I hope that you agree that it is just as wrong for me to argue that your emotional experience is wrong as it is for you to argue ours is.

And on to my last point. On narrative devices, because many people are talking about deus ex machina and macguffins. I'm not going to argue about whether these are literary devices or not. However, I will state they they have both been considered weak narrative tools for over a thousand real years. If you are going to argue that the ending is good, you cannot just gloss over this fact. You must address it head on. Why does it work in Mass Effect? What makes it work? Why shouldn't I consider it weak? There have been plenty of explations for why thse plot devices are weak, I won't recant them here. The default position is that it is weak until proven otherwise.

Good read. QFT.