626 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

veramis wrote...

Does Duane Webb get that his company has lost millions in sales/future sales with what they did with ME3? That's only about a million times more important than kotaku getting whatever.

Of course he gets it, this is why he comes across as a resentful goth teenager who is upset because the mainstream world does not appreciate his poetry.

Modifié par The Angry One, 18 mai 2012 - 01:06 .

[Norwood06]

In defense of the Totilo article, ME3 did a very good job wrapping up some of the ME plot points. I liked how the Krogan and Geth storylines were resolved.  I liked the ending for Mordin. And given that bioware cared more about its characters than its overall plot, (look at ME2, how much time spent with squadmates vs. stopping the collectors) I can see how some BW devs might feel slighted by all these rabid ME fans not applauding some of the character send offs.

However these points do not come remotely close to compensating for the 1) massive plot holes; 2) 'thematically revolting' endings 3) lacking any effect of player choice in the endings, 4) failed closure to the squadmates not mentioned above.

Totilo "gets" maybe half the picture.

Modifié par Norwood06, 18 mai 2012 - 01:33 .

[DamonD7]

The "you didn't understand it" defence is always a big winner with the community, after all.

EDIT - hang on, so Bioware really did intend the whole Mass Effect 3 of be a big multi-hour ending? 

Does this make the second page of a five-hundred page novel part of the ending too?

It feels like semantics. Or moving the goalposts. All of a story is building towards an ending, of course, but you still need The Ending.

Modifié par DamonD7, 18 mai 2012 - 01:35 .

[Bushido Effect]

Orange Tee wrote...

Ugh... I'm sorry there's a huge difference between "The Final Chapter/Episode" of a story and the actual conclusion to one.

Yep...

[SetecAstronomy]

I hadn't read that Kotaku article yet. Thanks, OP, it was a good read.

[soulprovider]

 yea it resolved all plots but the main ones

[Hyrist]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Ok, stepping in here a second

1 - Duane is entitled to his opinion, just like you all are entitled to yours
2 - So is the writer of the article
3 - Duane is likely referencing that the person who wrote the article viewed the entire game of ME3 as an ending, which it is. This is what the team intended, which is the "gets it". Yes, you can discuss how successful we were or whatever, but this was the goal.
4 - Some people like the ending and they are welcome to express that here the same way that those who didn't like it express their opinions.
5 - Just because Duane does or doesn't feel a certain way doesn't mean anything about the Extended Cut.

Sure he's entitled to his opinion, but the difference is, our opinion determines our purchases - aka, your cash flow. That flatly means valuing his own personal opinion over that of his customers is bad decision. And parading his opinion in a public trumpet. 

As far as the goal of making ME3 "An Ending" I got it. I even got the sort of 'Welcome to the Afterlife, you are now god, determine the fate of the universe as you pass into the next world." type of feel they were trying to produce. The whole stumbling to fall and pass out, the noticing of yourself bleeding out, the raising to an unknown white light. The conversation with 'god' and the choice of fate of the Galaxy made on a starry platform.

But it was the wrong approach for the ending. Like the normal human concepts of death, it leaves too many questions unanswered, and a feeling of fear, pain and anxiety of seperation when we conceive of death as a reality.

And you wonder why it made people upset?

You tried to project the artistic image of death and afterlife on people in a game where it was just not welcome. Players wanted to have the sensation of life, the grit and the survival and the enivitable feeling of triumph, even at a cost. Not this sort of disorientation and seperation normally associated with the concepts you were pulling out of a hat.

Yeah, I get the artistic intent, but it was done in the wrong way, the wrong game - and your sales are going to suffer for it for a while.

[RavenEyry]

Sure Duane is entitled to his opinion. Doesn't mean he is entitled to be rude about it. His manner in that post implies no one else gets it. Well I for one do. I get the whole game was an ending to the saga. I'm aware of various bits of closure you get along the way. That doesn't change the fact the ending to the ending blows that closure wide open again. Sure we got the quarians their homeworld back, pity most of their race is dead now. Yes, not stranded, dead. I don't care whether the relays wiped out the system or not, the tail end of the shockwave made Normandy crash, so logically the entire sword fleet is destroyed. Omega station too, what with two relays popping next to it.

There is also the obligatory Titanic rebuttal to anyone that says the journey matters but the ending doesn't.

[Magiking117]

ME was about stopping the Reapers. That was our main goal. All the other stuff were sub-plots. In ME3 you wrap up all these sub-plots - because that's what you do in the final act of a trilogy - and then deal with the primary conflict. The end to our main goal wasn't satisfactory. Some of the sub-plots came to a conclusion nicely, yes, but at the end of the day our business was with the Reapers...and that was a disappointment.

Cool, you helped the Krogans. Cool, you united the Geth and Quarians. But what about what that meant after the defeat of the Reapers. You don't end the final game so abruptly. The player is just left feeling empty, and unsatisfied. 

Modifié par Magiking117, 18 mai 2012 - 02:36 .

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

DamonD7 wrote...

The "you didn't understand it" defence is always a big winner with the community, after all.

EDIT - hang on, so Bioware really did intend the whole Mass Effect 3 of be a big multi-hour ending? 

Does this make the second page of a five-hundred page novel part of the ending too?

It feels like semantics. Or moving the goalposts. All of a story is building towards an ending, of course, but you still need The Ending.

To quote John Stewart:

"Redefining the meaning of words.  He'll go far in congress."

[Walsh1980]

You could view the whole game as an ending sure, although then that makes me wonder why the game was promoted as an "entry point" for new players. I'd actually go along with this too, for example Fable 2 a lot of people complain about the ending because you just shoot the final guy and it ends, to me, the last boss was the thing you fought on the beach and the rest was the ending. Or Shenmue 2, the last boss was the fight with the big fat guy, and the last disc with Shenhua is the ending.

You can also view Return of the Jedi as a 2 hour ending, and whether you like Ewoks and Jabba or not, the last 10 minutes of Luke Vs. Vader, finally facing this (until then) faceless Emperor, Vader coming back to the light, blowing up the Death Star, was all very satisfying. Mass Effect 3 was, action, action, action, huh? It's the "huh" that sticks out, it should have been "action, action, action, wow!"..

[macrocarl]

I agree wholeheartedly with the article. Although I'm also psyched for the EC! Come on bring it!!!11 MOAR!!!!

[G00N3R7883]

Duane Webb's comment is insulting to the fans. Basically saying that everyone who didn't like the ending, is too stupid to understand it. No, we don't understand it because there are plot holes big enough to fit the Normandy and several mass relays through. If we've misinterpreted certain events, then your writing failed.

The Kotaku article is hilarious. I don't visit that website very often so I don't know if its representative of the quality of writing on the whole website. Okay its fair to say that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but wow, there are serious flaws in that opinion.

Our best effort will only delay the loss. Mass Effect 3 proved to be more Tetris than Mario, but with each extra effort, each new re-load, I had a shot to keep a cast of characters alive. When my pieces finally reached the top of the screen, I had bought enough time and made enough effort to guarantee that a starship full of friends had lived.

In my game, out of 19 companions, 1 died on Virmire, 2 died on the collector base, 3 died during ME3, 1 never showed up on ME3 due to what I'm assuming is a bug, and 2 were shown alive at the normandy crash site. That leaves 10 companions who I know were alive at the start of Priority:Earth, but I've no idea what happened to them. To make it even worse, that 10 includes 6 who I count as personal favourites. And that's without even including non-companion characters.

No amount of reloading can fix this lack of closure. No amount of reloading can save more of them because no matter what, we only see 2 at the end and are left to wonder about the rest.

The best part of the end of the original Star Wars movie isn't the knowledge that the Death Star was destroyed but the smile, during a military awards ceremony, that the princess has for the farmboy. I always feel good when I see it, that knowing look between new friends (siblings, whatever).

If we apply the ME3 ending to Star Wars, the Death Star would blow up and the credits would roll. This scene that he enjoys so much would never have happened. (He also would have no idea if the princess was even still alive).

Modifié par G00N3R7883, 18 mai 2012 - 02:58 .

[JamieCOTC]

Xellith wrote...

If nobody can "get" your art - then you failed hard as an artist.

Not neccesarily. Art either does something for you or it doesn't.  There is no right or wrong. At the same time, artists should be responsible for their work and ready to defend it beyond the magic shield of "artistic integrity." 

[M920CAIN]

Wait. That article is talking about the Synthesis ending. I stopped right there. No way man, no way. If that Duane Webb guy is serious well I'm sorry I ever got hooked into the ME Series...

[luzburg]

well i think bioware dosent get it that they did a bad jobb with the ending.
it is a war story and it should have had many different outcome rangin from happy to epic fail
gaming media is a joke and artistig integrity as a exuse is a joke.
if the EC fails bioware will probably go down as gaming historys biggest fails.

they should listen to the metal gear creator its clear when you play those games that they are 10 times more refined and polished than anything bioware has released and frankly he has more experience than anyone in bioware

[Silpheed58]

Let a man have an opinion...

[Bill Casey]

From the Mass Effect 3 site...

Interactive Storytelling
Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome.

If you're new to this award-winning series, Mass Effect 3 offers a unique opening narrative to immerse you in the storyline and characters, quickly and easily preparing you for the beginning, middle, and end of a galactic war for survival.

whoops...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 18 mai 2012 - 09:45 .

[dreamgazer]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Xellith wrote...

If nobody can "get" your art - then you failed hard as an artist.

Not neccesarily. Art either does something for you or it doesn't.  There is no right or wrong. At the same time, artists should be responsible for their work and ready to defend it beyond the magic shield of "artistic integrity." 

I strongly agree with this rebuttal, both the bolded and the fact that I'd personally appreciate more transparency and defense than what we've got now. I'm hoping that the release of the extended cut will also lead to an opening-up of their opinions. 

Also, many, many people, critics and audiences alike, didn't "get" Stanley Kubrick's works when they were first released; in fact, many were reviled within certain circles. It's an easy example---and I'm not saying Mass Effect 3 approaches the same arena as Kubrick quality---but it's an obvious and pertinent one that pertains to the nature of art and the unreliability of first impressions.  Painters are the same way, but I'm steering away from things too easily-ascribed to the "art" moniker. 

[sistersafetypin]

"Finally someone get's it."

Um. Sorry but the people that have been playing Mass Effect since 2007 will continue to call you on the joke of an ending, the plot holes that might as well double as black holes, and the lies pre and post release.

But I'm glad that Bioware can still enjoy a bj when it's given by the press

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 18 mai 2012 - 10:32 .

[Kushan101]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's all starting to fall into place..........

They keep tying nooses when they do this......

Why?

Keep in mind, back in March he tweeted:

"Saw #21JumpStreet last night - funny movie but we didn't like the ending. Who can I send cupcakes to?"

I'm getting very, very close to not buying anything BioWare ever again. To disagree with the people who buy your products is one thing, but to actively mock them? He can go f*ck himself.

[Podge 90]

Quite frankly, after Duane Webb's comment, and the comments of Chris Priestly in this thread, I don't think Bioware "get it".

What a shame. They still don't know what they've done, do they?

[Postman778]

Podge 90 wrote...

Quite frankly, after Duane Webb's comment, and the comments of Chris Priestly in this thread, I don't think Bioware "get it".

What a shame. They still don't know what they've done, do they?

No, it is very hard to accept that you have done something wrong...
You can get the best critics for a movie, but if the audience doesn´t like it, you failed...

[RavenEyry]

I love how they seem to think passive-aggression is going to help them keep credibility and ensure future profits.

[aksoileau]

I love how they like to troll their own customers with bull****. Seriously bioware why don't look in the mirror for once and take a look at your screwups and how arrogant some of your employees are.

But hey, you know how TOR has lost nearly a quarter of their subs? I bet the ME franchise has lost just as much... But keep that pride up BioWare, it'll get you places.