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[simison]

So, for my new DA:O fanfic series, I've decided to read up on medieval history to add new material to my series and generally explore the other aspects of Thedas. I was reading on Medieval Childhood when something struck me:

Aren't the Chantry priests forbidden to marry? 

Now, I admit, I might simply have missed something in-game, but I think the answer is yes. If so, that puts me in this dilemma: why? Although the Catholic Church eventually ruled that Catholic priests must remain single, that wasn't  always so. In the early history of the Church, it was alright for the leaders of the Church to have families. Indeed, the Greek Orthodox tradition allows priests to come into the service married (though they aren't allowed to remarry). And when you look at the other monotheistic traditions, Jewish priests are allowed to marry, as are Muslim Imams. Quite frankly, the reason there is an emphasis on celibacy in the Christian tradition is primarily because Jesus himself is celibate. His actual teachings do not place much emphasis on celibacy. And even the apostle Paul, who would prefer all Christians to remain celibate and single, says it is okay for Christians to marry and in fact would be better to be married than to burn with desire.

Which brings me to Andraste. She is portrayed to be in marriage to Maferath. Unless there's a missing teaching that calls for celibacy in the line of duty, I conclude that the Chantry's emphasis on priestly celibacy is misplaced and unrealistic. It would be more fitting for priestly marriage to be much more acceptable and the norm in the DA universe. 

And, I realize that this is ultimately just being nit-picky, but the thought struck me and I thought I'd share it. Because Bioware has (or had) a reputation for attention to detail. And, on the miniscule chance that one of the BW people is reading through this, I would not mind if this was addressed. Because as interesting and as dramatic as the Templar-Mage issue is, life is just as much about the big as it is about the little stuff.

[gandanlin]

I don't recall anything specific on the subject of priestly celibacy appearing in the codex. It does seem clear enough that Andraste was married. But what the Andrastrian priests do or don't do with regard to marriage is not explicitly stated -- as far as I know.

As far as Jesus being celibate or unmarried, some people assert that Mary Magdalene and Jesus were married. Some even say there was a child born of that relationship.

[simison]

When last I investigated the issue, the Jesus-Mary marriage relied on historically-unreliable sources, that being the Gnostic gospels, sources which are routinely dated much, much later than the synoptic gospels, in addition to other issues that have led them to be largely discredited. Has there been a new discovery since I last checked?

And your point may be valid. I am playing through DA:O again, but the strongest argument I remember for priestly celibacy is that Lelianna mentioned how chastity has a way of improving a woman's mystique, along with a general sense that BW copied medieval Catholic teachings when making the fictional Chantry.

[gandanlin]

I can see parallels between the Andrastrian Chantry and Christianity, but that is as far as I would take it: a parallel. Not a one-to-one mapping.

Although last night I did have a few amusing thoughts about Wardens harrowing Hell (read: fighting darkspawn in the Deep Roads), immaculate conception (read: Morrigan's Dark Ritual), and other things along that line. But I don't really believe that DAO was really telling that sort of story.

I am more inclined to think that fantasy stories require a certain amount of grounding in the real world to be believable. So the Andrastrian Chantry has certain features that resemble Christianity, but are not meant to be an exact replica of that religion. More like a reflection in an otherworldly pool of water.

As far as the Jesus-Mary Magdalene topic goes, no I have nothing new. I would only say that religions and their associated beliefs are rarely about fact. They are more about beliefs, lifestyles, morality, and things along that line. The story is the message, not the facts.

[robertthebard]

I don't recall having seen any references to whether they can or cannot marry. The reference to mystique by Lelianna wasn't to do with the religious teachings, but the desireability of the initiates. Big difference there.

[Deviant Ingredient]

I think it has to do with being "married to the Maker". The Chantry priestesses and priests are dedicating themselves solely to the Maker, marriage would interfere with that. That's my take on it anyway.

[robertthebard]

I'm not sure how much detail I can go into about specific things in this particular forum, but with only one exception, in Origins, there are no male priests. The mentioned exception raised eyebrows amongst the more religious members of my party at the time.

[Deviant Ingredient]

robertthebard wrote...

I'm not sure how much detail I can go into about specific things in this particular forum, but with only one exception, in Origins, there are no male priests. The mentioned exception raised eyebrows amongst the more religious members of my party at the time.

They have Brothers, they just can't ever get higher than that. I think it's called affirmed? Remember Brother Burkel in Orzammar, and I believe Lelianna and Zevran mention Brothers in the Chantry. You might be thinking about Father Eirik in Haven. 

[robertthebard]

Right, but they aren't priests, they are more like nuns.

[Deviant Ingredient]

robertthebard wrote...

Right, but they aren't priests, they are more like nuns.

Which isn't that much different other than gender. And nuns still have Mothers, they just can't go any higher than that like be a Bishop or a Cardinal. In Dragon Age they have Sisters, Brothers, Revered Mothers, and the Divine. I believe the Tevinter Chantry has a male Divine if I recall correctly.

Modifié par Deviant Ingredient, 15 mai 2012 - 04:21 .

[robertthebard]

Actually, there is a huge difference between a priest and a nun; how many nuns give sermons at church? The Haven example would require marriage for the Father, since it's passed down from generation to generation. However, this gets away from the point I was initially making, I don't recall any codex entries, or dialog, that indicate that priests cannot marry.

[Corker]

I don't think there is, although we have examples of a lay sister who remained celibate (Leliana) and a sworn brother who absolutely has a vow of celibacy (DA2's Sebastian). Leliana also has banters with Zevran that imply that, aside from the lay sisters and brothers, chastity is the norm:

Edit: Whoops, forgot it was a no spoilers forum.  The Leliana/Zevran banters are here; read the second and third ones.  Especially in the third, Leliana seems to be saying that lay sisters and brothers, like herself, were not "under vows" but that the sworn priests, sisters and brothers were.

Modifié par Corker, 15 mai 2012 - 04:16 .

[mousestalker]

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, there is a huge difference between a priest and a nun; how many nuns give sermons at church? The Haven example would require marriage for the Father, since it's passed down from generation to generation. However, this gets away from the point I was initially making, I don't recall any codex entries, or dialog, that indicate that priests cannot marry.

There are orders of nuns for preaching, btw. The Dominicans, for example, are a preaching order. What women can not do in the Catholic or Orthodox churches is celebrate the Mass.

As far as in game lore, I think Bioware hasn't gone into a great many details about the Andrastean religion. Haven is presented as very much an outlier of the faith. The Tevinter Chantry is also viewed askance by the non-Tevinter devout.

Modifié par mousestalker, 15 mai 2012 - 04:44 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

*checks non-spoiler forum*

Ok. In DA2 there is at least one notable example of a brother who can get married, although what he proposes is a chaste marriage. EDIT: IIRC it's implied he means a marriage with no sex, so he might have meant celibate instead of chaste, but there's some confusion on that...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 16 mai 2012 - 07:53 .

[gandanlin]

Brother Genitivi and Weylon seemed to live together in Denerim. I'm speculating a little here (in the absence of hard evidence), but I sometimes have wondered if room and board was part of their relationship...well, maybe it went a little deeper than that.

So I suppose I was wondering if the Andrastrian Chantry had an official position on same-sex marriages and relationships? I can't recall anything being said in the ambient dialogue, but my memory can be sketchy at the best of times.

Modifié par gandanlin, 16 mai 2012 - 09:49 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It's getting so that two people can't live under the same roof without a relationship being assumed.

Like the time I was renting with a female friend, and when I told a door-to-door electricity agent I couldn't sign any contracts because it was in her name and not mine, he automatically jumped to the conclusion she was my partner.

Good times.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 17 mai 2012 - 12:34 .

[simison]

[quote]mousestalker wrote...

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

As far as in game lore, I think Bioware hasn't gone into a great many details about the Andrastean religion. 

[/quote]

Which is kinda the crux of my thread. DA2 focused quite a bit on the Chantry solely in the light of the templar vs. mage debate that I wouldn't mind seeing other aspects of the Chantry in the next game, even if its only in codex entries. And this just happens to be one of the little things I'm wondering about.