44 réponses à ce sujet

[SushiSquid]

UPDATE: Upon re-reading this, I agree that the wording was a little definitive.  I've changed it so people will hopefully discuss their own ideas more.  I'm not trying to say my ideas are absolutely what must be done; I'm providing feedback so Bioware knows how one member of the community feels about parts of the game, and I'm asking for feedback from the rest of you.  I personally enjoy the game very much even with some things that I would change.

Some specializations are just not as powerful as others.  In the interest of opening discussion with others about this, I'll start with my ideas on how to improve what I see as problems with the specializations.

Shapeshifter

• Make shifting instant-cast like most spells are.  This would allow the Mage to switch among the three forms to use their different powers. The cooldown on each shape should also be greatly reduced to around 10-20 seconds.  To actually make switching among them worthwhile...
• The shapes need greater differences. To accomplish this, each one needs a few more active abilities. We're giving up spells (and a specialization slot plus four talent points) for these shapes, so make them worth it. This would give the Mage a reason to use each of the three shapes under different circumstances.
• Sustained spells should still be usable. I agree with active spells being replaced by the shape's active talents, but removing access to sustained spells is the nail in Shapeshifter's coffin. The shapes all do nothing but melée combat, which they already are much worse at than an Arcane Warrior. Don't make them worse by removing sustained spells.

Reaver

• The loot delay glitch needs to be fixed. This alone makes Devour (and Death Magic and Death Syphon) kind of suck. Rarely enemies will register as dead right when they fall. Much more commonly you can't loot the corpse or Devour it until after the battle ends.  Otherwise, a minor healing ability is nice and, when it works, is pretty cool.
• Aura of Pain does absolutely terrible damage. When my character can take off 70-100 damage per swing, an extra 14 damage every two seconds is a joke. I'm paying a specialization slot, three talent points, 60 upkeep, 5% fatigue and my own health for this?  Not worth it at all. The damage is currently not even increased by any attribute. Increase the base damage and then have magic empower it further so warriors get an actual benefit to increasing magic (I'd get into how each attribute should have some realistic use for all classes, but that's another topic).  Yes, this should also increase the damage the Reaver himself takes, which makes it a proper trade-off.  This would also make Reaver enemies a little more dangerous and a little more self-destructive. Currently they have a cool name but are otherwise almost indistinguishable from other warriors.
• Blood Frenzy needs to be made passive, obviously with no health regeneration penalty. The damage bonus is already very low; why make the talent totally worthless by adding upkeep, fatigue, and penalized regeneration?  Sure, you can get a small damage boost at near death with penalties, or you could just Berserk for the same small damage boost plus increased health regeneration and mental resistance.

Templar

• Righteous Strike needs to provide a small damage bonus against mages. Draining their mana isn't enough given how much mana mages have; they just seem to cast spells anyway with no noticeable difference from having drained them. Mostly however, this is needed as a matter of perception: Templars as a class need to feel like Mage hunters. Adding a small (magic-10) bonus in spirit damage versus anything with mana would add to the flavor of the class greatly. Making the damage spirit would make it resistable, but would also make it more noticeable so that the player would see that he/she is actually better against Mages like Templars are supposed to be.  Again, this would also provide warriors a use for magic.  They could boost magic and be better against Mages (strength adds 0.5 against everything, magic adds twice that but only against things with mana), but would spend fewer points then on strength/dexterity/constitution. As it is currently, magic is worthless for warriors and rogues (oo, my potions now heal an extra 2 health, that was really worth 3 points).
• Cleanse Area should be ranged like Holy Smite. Having it center on the caster makes it almost always more harm than good.  A stun effect on Mages (still friendly-fire) would also be a nice addition.
• Holy Smite does not smite Mages.  It doesn't even smite anything. I expected Mana Clash for warriors. It is not. Holy Smite does perhaps an extra 2 damage for me against Mages. Currently, the damage is based on willpower and the increased damage against Mages is very, very small. It needs a serious kick in the back end to make it worth the huge stamina cost. Leave the damage against non-Mages low as it should be, but make it use magic instead of willpower (which for most warriors would make it even weaker against non-Mages). As Alistair admits, Templar powers are basically magic, so Holy Smite using magic would make more sense.  Against Mages, it should drain all mana like Mana Clash (which doesnt require a specialization and level 15 to unlock) and cause massive damage. This is a level 15 talent, costs a huge chunk of stamina, has a long cooldown, and is the final reward for a specialization that supposedly focuses entirely on hunting Mages. Make it feel like it, because doing the same 20 damage to a Mage and knocking everything over for a second makes Holy Smite extremely underwhelming and currently not worth the stamina. Mages are supposed to fear Templars, but currently they end up being far better hunters of each other just using Mana Clash.

Bard

• It's funny how bad Song of Valor is.  The current regeneration bonus is 0.5+0.01*(cunning-10). That is not a misplaced decimal on my part, but I'm hoping it was on the part of the guy who scripted the talent. Currently, 60 cunning nets you an extra one stamina every two seconds. That's got to be a mistake. I'm sure it was meant to be 0.5+0.1*(cunning-10), which at 60 cunning would still only give a 5.5 regeneration, making Song of Courage still universally better but much less so.  This should be fixed.

 
I could now talk about how Berserk and Blood Magic should not turn off after battle (it's really annoying), how there shouldn't be a Remove All Summons command on every zone change just to screw with Rangers (this serves no purpose), how multiple summons per party should be allowed on the Xbox 360 and PS3 versions (there was no reason for the limit at all), or how the Arcane Warrior is stupidly overpowered (Shimmering Shield? Seriously did they need an "I am invincible" spell?), but the rest of this topic needs more than just my opinions. How do you all feel about the specializations, and what would you change to make them all worthy choices?

Modifié par SushiSquid, 09 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[SushiSquid]

"You are not allowed to edit this topic."

Why not? I made the thing, and the text editor this site uses messed up my formatting somewhat and ignored my colors. Are we not allowed to use different text colors? None of mine appeared at all.

UPDATE: I'm allowed to edit it now obviously, but the color editor provided has failed to actually produce any effect.  It doesn't matter much though.

Modifié par SushiSquid, 09 décembre 2009 - 06:30 .

[Dranearian]

I completely disagree with your reaver complaints. Especially Aura of Pain. Sure 28 damage on a single target isn't that great. However why would you EVER use this while fighting a single target? (don't forget you can get 2 or 3 procs off per melee swing)



Hit just 3 targets and you buff your damage nearly 50%. Hit 6 and you double it.

[Dranearian]

Wont let me edit.



Hit just 2 targets and you buff your damage nearly 50%. Hit 4 and you double it.

[DaeFaron]

Templar Holy smite damage doesn't smite anything? Have you used it in endgame? That skill easily takes out chunks of Darkspawn grunts charging you, useful for saving time as a warrior.

[SushiSquid]

I have never seen the damage that high, but I do play on Nightmare. I understand that it's for when you're surrounded by multiple targets. It still does terrible damage. Sure, I can do like 18 damage to everything around me once every two seconds, or I can Momentum-speed through them all way faster, shredding them with hits of around 70 each. The damage from Aura of Pain is underwhelming because it doesn't grow proportionally to the rest of your damage, mostly due to it not being tied to any attribute.

Again, I play on Nightmare, so Holy Smite's damage has never killed anything for me.  The most I've seen from it was, I think, 22 damage on a Mage with my level 18 warrior.  I'm not impressed.  I still use it for knockdown, but only when many enemies are in the area at once.

Modifié par SushiSquid, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:14 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

you bring up some really good points about the specs listed. I know some people are working n 'fixing' the specializations, which is good because i can only assume that it will be a long time (if ever) before they are rebalanced officially.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Definately something up with the forums in reguards to editing, my first attempt to post a response said "Unable to find topic" but posted anyways (resulting in a double post which i am now editing)  My first attempt to edit came back with "Wrong post" but a second attempt worked.

Try your edit again, but use the forum based 'highlight and click' colour changing instead of adding your own code.

Modifié par Sloth Of Doom, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:15 .

[DaeFaron]

Well, on normal holy smite did 22 damage 100% of the time to the massed darkspawn I hit with it, insta-killing the grunts to clear room. I'd use templar simply because of the fact Templar armor looks kick-ass until I get either the entire diligence set or the Effort set.

[Thundor562]

reaver owns bones and I have no problem using devour in the middle of a fight, saves on potions for my main character. also what franaerian said. aura of pain will murder group of enemies quite fast, its damage really add up.

[Rainen89]

Templar is good for resists/commander armor. Holy smite for me is not for the damage, it's for the long range knockdown that lets my mage get a long cast CC spell off (Mass paralysis / Blizzard.) without fear of being interupted. It's also good for the end because, yeah you'll see.

As for Song of Valor, holy crap if that is the math that is horrible. Clearly just given for the graphic.

Modifié par Rainen89, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:24 .

[SushiSquid]

No one defending Shapeshifter yet, and one person defending Templar agrees that it's useful for the armor and knocking things down, which I would still say isn't worth a specialization. There are other good armors (even if they aren't as cool looking) and Champions knock things down too.

This is good though.  I'd like for this to generate discussion on how people feel about all the specializations.  The developers actually read these boards and care what we think, so a topic that generates enough interest might actually produce changes depending on how the community feels.

Modifié par SushiSquid, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[DaeFaron]

Champion was nice for the rally, Besides when I had to switch to another char for a second, then come back and see my warrior turned off rally, turned on threaten, and maybe a shield defense skill I didn't need at the moment.

[kelsjet]

I never understood threads like this.

These kind of posts would make a lot of sense if DA:O was a MMO, or some other closed development game.

You guys do realize you have access to a toolkit that gives you the ability to change pretty much anything you wish? Why lobby for Bioware to make changes to the game? Why wait for "fixes to the totally useless specializations"?

Why not, you know... put your money where your mouth is? Go out there and make the so called "Small and Obvious" changes that you talk about and are so confident about.

Make a mod, and let the community as a whole decide how good your 'changes' are. If they are any good, many people will download and use it. If they are cr@p (which, imho, they are), no one will bother and you will be forgotten just like every other self proclaimed master of game design out there.

Simple, isn't it?

This whole "Oh I will go to the QQ on the forums so that Bioware can make the changes I want and that I KNOW will make this game better" is just such a moronic activity, especially when you have been given all the tools to make any changes to the game you wish AND been given a place where you can share these changes with the rest of the DA:O community.

[DaeFaron]

I would like to see how I can mod the xbox 360 game, because everybody here plays the PC version and nobody has a console.

[SushiSquid]

That just requires a few changes to the character's tactics. I actually turn off all tactics except healing when low on HP for my main character so that when I take control of others he or she won't do stupid things. Champions get enemy debuffing with a knockdown plus ally buffing. It's a pretty good class for the same reasons Bard is a good class, but Champion achieves great bonuses without having to focus on any attribute. This said, Champion is not too powerful because, like Duelist's bonuses, the bonuses from Champion are static. They're all 10 points, which is high enough to always be useful even later on, but not so high that they're too strong when acquired.

How do people feel about the other choices, though? I'd really love to hear if anyone has any gripes with other specializations. Is the after-battle deactivation along with the weak and worthless Final Blow enough to make you hate Berserker? Do you detest spending your own HP on spells and see no use for Blood Mage? Do Assassin's last two talents being so weak make you ignore the whole specialization?


And Kelsjet, don't be a jackass.  I personally play the Xbox 360 version of this game.  When I played Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2, I did make many of my own changes for myself.  I'm quite familiar with working on toolsets for those games.  I cannot do that for this game because I no longer own a PC that would run it and hence got it for a console.  If you have nothing to add, then don't add anything.  If you'd like to actually argue with valid points against anything I said (rather than saying you just hate it all), then please go ahead.  I'd love to hear other opinions.  I would not love to hear "dur, that all sucks," because it is in no way constructive.

Modifié par SushiSquid, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:41 .

[Godeshus]

Wow what an interesting read. I'm sure some will disagree with you, but for the most part your suggestions make a lot of sense. Especially in regards to shapeshifter. I've always found the idea of a shapeshifter cool, however never used it because it always seems that when you shift shape you become LESS tough. Kinda defeats the purpose.



Anyway, I hope the devs get a chance to look at this for some ideas.



On a side note:



I wonder who bioware used for their QA testing. My girlfriend worked as a QA for a while. She was working on a lucas arts release a while back, and the devs flew in to ask the testers what they thought about the game, what they would change and what they would keep. There was a lot of positive feedback and a couple builds later they had actually changed some core parts of the game.



No matter how big a company is, imagination becomes stagnant when your team is working on the same project for 5 years, and it gets increasingly difficult to view this project as a game that people will play. You see numbers and broken down chunks of various aspects. Getting some feedback from a fresh audience seems like a really cool way to avoid the types of inconsistencies mentioned in the OP.



Cheers and thanks for a good read.

[Godeshus]

SushiSquid wrote...


And Kelsjet, don't be a jackass.  I personally play the Xbox 360 version of this game.  When I played Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2, I did make many of my own changes for myself.  I'm quite familiar with working on toolsets for those games.  I cannot do that for this game because I no longer own a PC that would run it and hence got it for a console.  If you have nothing to add, then don't add anything.  If you'd like to actually argue with valid points against anything I said (rather than saying you just hate it all), then please go ahead.  I'd love to hear other opinions.  I would not love to hear "dur, that all sucks," because it is in no way constructive.

I agree wholeheartedly on this. There was a patch recently released that changed some things because of constructive user feedback.  The Devs are watching the forums and your OP was very well laid out, describing what you DON'T like about the specs, and then dropping suggestions on what you would like.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[jivebeaver]

agree 5000% percent, whoever designed holy smite must have been smoking

except the song of valor deal, since energy regen balance is a delicate subject and 5.5/tick borders on broken (every 10 seconds 27.5 mana = heal or regen) but it should be more than 0.50+0.01x



the assassin second talent makes the entire spec worth it

[kelsjet]

SushiSquid wrote...
And Kelsjet, don't be a jackass. 

Are you seriously this retarded?

Me telling you to stop QQing and make the changes yourself is me being a "jackass"?

Such a classic child metality. It really is quite telling when you lead with "These are my opinions, feel free to discuss these opinions but if you disagree with what I am saying you are a jackass so fuk off!"

But at the end of the day, even all this is totally irrelevant. Again, this is NOT a MMO. You are not paying $x a month to get Bioware to 'fix' the game for you as you see fit.

Going out there, demanding that Bioware 'fix these retarded specializations" which, according to you are "quick and easy" fixes when you obviously have absolutely no idea what development is actually about makes you the jackass my friend, not me.

A total jackass to the guys who actually do work on DA:O.

How much blatant disrespect for Bioware developers can one person seriously contain? And you aren't even paying them for the patches!! For **** sake man, get off your high horse and stop being a douche who 'claims' to know it all when you have absolutely no idea.


The sense of entitlement that exist with some people on these forums is absolutely sickening. Total disregard for the people who actually spend years of their life creating something which you pay $40 for, only to have you come to their forums and p!ss all over their effort. Sh!t all over their skills and go around blasting how "quick and easy" everything is.

I really do hope you are all kids, because I shudder at the thought that you are adults who act like this.

[Wolfva2]

SushiSquid wrote...

No one defending Shapeshifter yet, and one person defending Templar agrees that it's useful for the armor and knocking things down, which I would still say isn't worth a specialization. There are other good armors (even if they aren't as cool looking) and Champions knock things down too.

This is good though.  I'd like for this to generate discussion on how people feel about all the specializations.  The developers actually read these boards and care what we think, so a topic that generates enough interest might actually produce changes depending on how the community feels.

Of course no one defended shapeshifter, since you ordered us not to.  And since you ARE the 'Keeper of All Knowledge of DA:O and the Way it is SUPPOSED to Be' you are, of course, completely correct in everything you say.  If only those idiot devs had hired you to design the game the RIGHT way instead of the stupid way they did.

Above is sarcasm, btw.  I'm not going to argue your points because they're your opinions.  And hey, I actually agree with some of them.  What I DON'T agree with is your applied assertion that YOU and ONLY YOU are right, and that people who disagree shouldn't even bother responding since you're right, and they're wrong.  Please, remember that just because you have an opinion does NOT make it true for everyone. 

 Let's take shapeshifting; someone wrote a post a few weeks ago detailing how they used it, and for them it was very effective.  Basically, he went into combat already shifted, used the special skills, then transformed back to Morigan and cast spells.  I tried it that way, pretty effective.  People have different playstyles then you do after all.  They may have found a way to get the most out of a skill you may find worthless.

There is no right or wrong way to play the game, or to utilize a skill.  The important thing to remember is that this is a game, and games are played to have fun.  Now, having discussions about HOW to utilize skills, or how to make them more effective can be fun.  But starting a 'discussion' by stating your opinion as fact, and that contrary opinions are not worth even bringing up...well, not quite as fun.

[Meicyn]

Some of the drama that occurs here is absolutely hilarious to me. I'm waiting for the Xbox 360 patch for my next playthrough so I can get more mileage out of a rogue character, but some folks act like it's the end of the world because they aren't getting a fix RIGHT THIS SECOND. There are other games out there, you know. You can still come back to Dragon Age at any time.

[SushiSquid]

Again, you fail to be mature and add anything to the topic. The developers do read these boards and, from what I've heard, the Xbox 360 version of the game is the best selling version, which means this type of thing does matter. I've asked for your and other's opinions; not because I don't care, but because I actually want to hear them along with my own.

I am in no way demanding anything; I am simply making my suggestions for how what I perceive to be broken should be fixed. From working on modifications in Neverwinter Nights and its sequel, I do know that the changes I suggested would actually be very simple to make. Obviously all patches require testing and time to put out, but I suggested the changes I did specifically because they would be easy to produce.

As far as not paying them for patches, I bought the Collector's Edition of the game, Warden's Keep, and I will be buying Return to Ostagar as well as any other DLC the day it comes out. I think my opinion counts at least as much as everyone else who bought the game. I feel no sense of entitlement and I can't imagine where in all my text you would have gotten that idea.

I expect nothing and hope for everything. There is nothing wrong or arrogant about that.


tl;dr version: You are a presumptive jackass.

Modifié par SushiSquid, 09 décembre 2009 - 06:02 .

[Godeshus]

kelsjet wrote...

SushiSquid wrote...
And Kelsjet, don't be a jackass. 

Are you seriously this retarded?

Me telling you to stop QQing and make the changes yourself is me being a "jackass"?

Such a classic child metality. It really is quite telling when you lead with "These are my opinions, feel free to discuss these opinions but if you disagree with what I am saying you are a jackass so fuk off!"

But at the end of the day, even all this is totally irrelevant. Again, this is NOT a MMO. You are not paying $x a month to get Bioware to 'fix' the game for you as you see fit.

Going out there, demanding that Bioware 'fix these retarded specializations" which, according to you are "quick and easy" fixes when you obviously have absolutely no idea what development is actually about makes you the jackass my friend, not me.

A total jackass to the guys who actually do work on DA:O.

How much blatant disrespect for Bioware developers can one person seriously contain? And you aren't even paying them for the patches!! For **** sake man, get off your high horse and stop being a douche who 'claims' to know it all when you have absolutely no idea.


The sense of entitlement that exist with some people on these forums is absolutely sickening. Total disregard for the people who actually spend years of their life creating something which you pay $40 for, only to have you come to their forums and p!ss all over their effort. Sh!t all over their skills and go around blasting how "quick and easy" everything is.

I really do hope you are all kids, because I shudder at the thought that you are adults who act like this.

Woah, calm down guy. You take one too many serious pills today? Maybe you should stop playing for a while and get yourself something to eat. I think your blood sugar is getting low or something.  You may not realize it, but you just made yourself look like everything you were accusing sushi of, and a temper tantrum like that does not make you look like an adult at all.

[MerinTB]

Very constructive post! Well reasoned, well explained, easy to read through.

Why can't more critiques of the game be half this well done?

I won't defend Shapeshifting. But I will say I still had tons of fun with it. Did I realize Morrigan would be far more effective hurling Cone of Cold endlessly? Sure. But it was damn cool watching her pin down enemies as a corrupted bear!

EDIT - wow, the venom directed at the OP...  It is seriously uncalled for, people.  I like the game just fine as it was released, but I can stand (easily stand (actually, I enjoyed reading this)) seeing someone else very succinctly and elegantly lay out what he believes could be done to make the game more fun for all players by making all options more viable.
And yes, this is still MerinTB.  I still don't think classes need to be balanced in a single-player CRPG.  But all options should be fun options, even if not as good as others, and I've rethought my defense of the SS insect swarm form and I cannot remember it ever doing much other than quickly draining my mana.

Modifié par MerinTB, 09 décembre 2009 - 06:05 .