93 réponses à ce sujet

[Sutekh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Hawke always starts out the same. You have maybe 2 origins, Mage is different from the others, but beyond that Hawke at point A is the same regardless. Because characters are 100% nurture, how you choose that first step is totally down to the player and that is very much "Oh I'll be snarky Hawke today".
That's very different from the Origins,where the Origins themselves will shape the characters personality with some variation here and there.

I am the first to say that Hawke would have needed more backgrounds than ONE. I have debated endlessly on the merits of origins and various backgrounds in other threads for months. If you believe I'm against that, or that I think dominant personalities are in any way as roleplay-ish as origins, you're mistaken.

Can we establish that we agree on this, or are you going to keep trying to convince me of something I already and absolutely believe?

However, you seem to think that the first choice you make "I'll be snarky Hawke today" conditions how you'll play him for the whole game duration; that once you've chosen, you're stuck with one dominant personality. It's not true. 1. You don't have to conform to that design (you won't get struck by lightning if you choose diplo or aggro from time to time). 2. dominant personality can change - even though I'm not fond of the formula that change is based on, because I believe it encourages meta-gaming a lot. But regardless, it can; nuances are possible.

So yes, it's nowhere near backgrounds / origins, but it's still something that allows a bit of flexibility. Hawke is shapeable, much less so than the Warden, and far from enough, but s/he still is. It's not a yes or no situation. It's a 100 or 20 one.

ETA to drive the first point home:

brushyourteeth wrote...

If I just want a fantasy adventure game, I'll pick one of dozens of decent ones out on the market that do that even better than DA.

If I want fantastic writing and options, options, OPTIONS enough to make the replay value tempting enough to pre-order and purchase DLC's, I look to DA. And to that end, I'll always hope for some form of the multiple origin options. It's the signature, groundbreaking leg-up DA:O had on the competition, and I think it was a mistake to ignore it in the last installment.

 I absolutely, 100%, completely, totally, fully, wholy, all the way agree with this.

Modifié par Sutekh, 16 mai 2012 - 11:11 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

The only way to avoid people complaint about multiple origins is to have multiple story branches like choose-your-adventure book type, something which is BioWare not fond in making. If Ostagar didn't tied every origins to the same plot, I think no one will complaints. BioWare should move away from their linear storytelling and start exploring multiple story plots or least try the Wicher 2's approach. People are getting tired with linearity. Even reviewers tend to criticize linearity in storytelling like LOTR: War in the North and Jurassic Park the Movie.

[AkiKishi]

Sutekh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Hawke always starts out the same. You have maybe 2 origins, Mage is different from the others, but beyond that Hawke at point A is the same regardless. Because characters are 100% nurture, how you choose that first step is totally down to the player and that is very much "Oh I'll be snarky Hawke today".
That's very different from the Origins,where the Origins themselves will shape the characters personality with some variation here and there.

I am the first to say that Hawke would have needed more backgrounds than ONE. I have debated endlessly on the merits of origins and various backgrounds in other threads for months. If you believe I'm against that, or that I think dominant personalities are in any way as roleplay-ish as origins, you're mistaken.

Can we establish that we agree on this, or are you going to keep trying to convince me of something I already and absolutely believe?

However, you seem to think that the first choice you make "I'll be snarky Hawke today" conditions how you'll play him for the whole game duration; that once you've chosen, you're stuck with one dominant personality. It's not true. 1. You don't have to conform to that design (you won't get struck by lightning if you choose diplo or aggro from time to time). 2. dominant personality can change - even though I'm not fond of the formula that change is based on, because I believe it encourages meta-gaming a lot. But regardless, it can; nuances are possible.

So yes, it's nowhere near backgrounds / origins, but it's still something that allows a bit of flexibility. Hawke is shapeable, much less so than the Warden, and far from enough, but s/he still is. It's not a yes or no situation. It's a 100 or 20 one.

ETA to drive the first point home:

There are two issues with Hawke.

1. It's a pre-gen character pretending not to be.
2. The voice direction means that choosing different personalies sounds like different people, not the same person adopting a different attitude.

There is no more flexibility there than in Witcher2.Once you get over the fixed appearence thing, there is in fact a lot less.
Even if you were to add races back in, without the extra voice acting, you would have different races who all sounded the same. This is not something you ever need to deal with when you have a silent protagonist.

[Sutekh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

There are two issues with Hawke.

1. It's a pre-gen character pretending not to be.
2. The voice direction means that choosing different personalies sounds like different people, not the same person adopting a different attitude.

There is no more flexibility there than in Witcher2.Once you get over the fixed appearence thing, there is in fact a lot less.
Even if you were to add races back in, without the extra voice acting, you would have different races who all sounded the same. This is not something you ever need to deal with when you have a silent protagonist.

Those goal posts? You didn't move them, you just teleported them on another planet.

This thread is NOT about the silent protagonist. This way to constantly make everything about it, this constant nagging, is what makes any discussion almost impossible since the devs have announced the next protag will be voiced. It's not even about Hawke. It's about the possible return of backgrounds and origins in DA3. 

Regardless, I disagree about your view on Geralt being more flexible than Hawke. Made my point in another thread, but I'm gonna make it again, simplier: bottom line, if you only play female characters, you can't roleplay Geralt, period. And no, it's not only about that, but this debate doesn't belong here either.

I also disagree about your point 2 above. The fact that you think so, perceive and experience it this way doesn't make it objectively true. It makes it true for you. Plus, a direction problem is a direction problem. It doesn't mean that it couldn't have been done in a way that you would have found more cohesive.

Seeing that I don't agree with the bases of your argument, up to the races and voice acting, I can't agree that VA and origins are mutually exclusive, especially considering that : 1. different backgrounds doesn't always mean different races. 2. Since we're talking about a potential game about which we know next to nothing, nothing is there to indicate that only one VA would be used. Nothing says either that one actor can't do several voices. DAO and DA2 - and plenty of other games - have abundantly proven that they can.

Aaaaand, that is all. There are already way too many threads about VA / silent already, including some right there on the first pages of both general forums.

[AkiKishi]

Sutekh wrote...
Those goal posts? You didn't move them, you just teleported them on another planet.

This thread is NOT about the silent protagonist. This way to constantly make everything about it, this constant nagging, is what makes any discussion almost impossible since the devs have announced the next protag will be voiced. It's not even about Hawke. It's about the possible return of backgrounds and origins in DA3. 

Regardless, I disagree about your view on Geralt being more flexible than Hawke. Made my point in another thread, but I'm gonna make it again, simplier: bottom line, if you only play female characters, you can't roleplay Geralt, period. And no, it's not only about that, but this debate doesn't belong here either.

I also disagree about your point 2 above. The fact that you think so, perceive and experience it this way doesn't make it objectively true. It makes it true for you. Plus, a direction problem is a direction problem. It doesn't mean that it couldn't have been done in a way that you would have found more cohesive.

Seeing that I don't agree with the bases of your argument, up to the races and voice acting, I can't agree that VA and origins are mutually exclusive, especially considering that : 1. different backgrounds doesn't always mean different races. 2. Since we're talking about a potential game about which we know next to nothing, nothing is there to indicate that only one VA would be used. Nothing says either that one actor can't do several voices. DAO and DA2 - and plenty of other games - have abundantly proven that they can.

Aaaaand, that is all. There are already way too many threads about VA / silent already, including some right there on the first pages of both general forums.

All these things are interelated like a web. Change one thing and you change something something else because of the consequences of that change. Sacrificing origins is a consequence of going full VA. Unless EA are willing to shell out considerably more money for DA3 they will stay gone.

Guys get paid by the line. Even if you have the same actor doing all the voices, good luck getting them to accept a single paycheck for it.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 mai 2012 - 05:01 .

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

All these things are interelated like a web. Change one thing and you change something something else because of the consequences of that change. Sacrificing origins is a consequence of going full VA. Unless EA are willing to shell out considerably more money for DA3 they will stay gone.

Guys get paid by the line. Even if you have the same actor doing all the voices, good luck getting them to accept a single paycheck for it.

I'd voice act for free. Get me a ticket to Canada and I'm game.

I'm only 5% joking. Let Bioware host a competition. Release a short monologue. Choose a fan or two or aspiring VA's based on the best submission. Fan feature + potential career starter + more usable zots = win.

[AkiKishi]

brushyourteeth wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

All these things are interelated like a web. Change one thing and you change something something else because of the consequences of that change. Sacrificing origins is a consequence of going full VA. Unless EA are willing to shell out considerably more money for DA3 they will stay gone.

Guys get paid by the line. Even if you have the same actor doing all the voices, good luck getting them to accept a single paycheck for it.

I'd voice act for free. Get me a ticket to Canada and I'm game.

I'm only 5% joking. Let Bioware host a competition. Release a short monologue. Choose a fan or two or aspiring VA's based on the best submission. Fan feature + potential career starter + more usable zots = win.

Well you could cast less well known voice actors for less. The DA2 VA's were hardly A list, but certainly quite well known in the UK.
Bad voice acting will certainly not escape notice , so there is a case of diminishing returns in cost saving.
This is like the major advantage of the silent protagonist, you write the line but it can be delivered in any way the player can imagine vs a fixed delivery every time by a voice actor. Voice actors suit single characters like Geralt and Adam very well, but it's no where near as versitile as an imagined line.

It's one thing to add the models for different races. It's quite another to voice an Elf and Dwarf (same voice for both types) four additional voice actors and line alocations for around 20% of the player base.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 mai 2012 - 05:22 .

[Sutekh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's one thing to add the models for different races. It's quite another to voice an Elf and Dwarf (same voice for both types) four additional voice actors and line alocations for around 20% of the player base.

Different things cost money. Different races aren't only different models. You have to adapt armors too. All loot that is wearable by the PC has to be made in six versions (three races x two genders), and this only considering we stick to the existing playable races. Should we get rid of armors too, have an immutable "iconic" look for the PC as well? Have much less loot? Or do you think modellers work for free too? And let's not get into the cinematics problem

And, again, different backgrounds doesn't mean different races. I'd rather be able to play as an elf or a dwarf depending on my mood, but I'd be satisfied with all-humans backgrounds too provided they offer variety. The VA cost would then be the same as for allowing more branching.

I'm not arguing that multi-races or even backgrounds wouldn't cost more. I'm saying that stating the problem lies only with VA is conveniently reducing it to what you don't like, while ignoring the taste and preferences of others.

Not even gonna touch "major advantage of silent protagonist". Discussed to death already, and I just made a very good Willpower roll.

[TJX2045]

Sutekh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

There are two issues with Hawke.

1. It's a pre-gen character pretending not to be.
2. The voice direction means that choosing different personalies sounds like different people, not the same person adopting a different attitude.

There is no more flexibility there than in Witcher2.Once you get over the fixed appearence thing, there is in fact a lot less.
Even if you were to add races back in, without the extra voice acting, you would have different races who all sounded the same. This is not something you ever need to deal with when you have a silent protagonist.

Those goal posts? You didn't move them, you just teleported them on another planet.

This thread is NOT about the silent protagonist. This way to constantly make everything about it, this constant nagging, is what makes any discussion almost impossible since the devs have announced the next protag will be voiced. It's not even about Hawke. It's about the possible return of backgrounds and origins in DA3. 

Yes, let me remind everyone that this thread is NOT ABOUT THE SILENT PROTAGONIST vs VOICED.  We know that the DA3 protagonist is going to be voiced.  They announced it.  They are not going to go back on their word about that.  We need to just deal with that aspect and see if they can go the route of MMOs and add more content for us to install on the consoles or PCs to get more voice acting for each race so we can possibly have a choice in what race we play again.

I know it is possible.  How come an MMO can have different voiceovers for each of the races AND not to mention the fact that it's online on a server?  Which is considerably more than just making the content to be enjoyed single player offline.  And before anyone says "subscription" this was in Guild Wars 2, which is using the buy the game, play for free model.

Can we get someone from Bioware in here to post some kind of recognition that they have read this thread?  There are a lot of good ideas and shared concerns we have in here...It'd be great to at least know you guys are reading this and make me (and I'm sure many others) feel better as I am very passionate about this.

Sutekh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's one thing to add the models for different races. It's quite another to voice an Elf and Dwarf (same voice for both types) four additional voice actors and line alocations for around 20% of the player base.

Different things cost money. Different races aren't only different models. You have to adapt armors too. All loot that is wearable by the PC has to be made in six versions (three races x two genders), and this only considering we stick to the existing playable races. Should we get rid of armors too, have an immutable "iconic" look for the PC as well? Have much less loot? Or do you think modellers work for free too? And let's not get into the cinematics problem

 
Well let us also not forget that it is also three different classes that all have different looks based on that one outfit as well.  Same with the Champion's armor in DA2.  3 different classes x 2 genders = 6 different looks.

Modifié par TJX2045, 16 mai 2012 - 06:03 .

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
I'd voice act for free. Get me a ticket to Canada and I'm game.

I'm only 5% joking. Let Bioware host a competition. Release a short monologue. Choose a fan or two or aspiring VA's based on the best submission. Fan feature + potential career starter + more usable zots = win.

Well you could cast less well known voice actors for less. The DA2 VA's were hardly A list, but certainly quite well known in the UK.
Bad voice acting will certainly not escape notice , so there is a case of diminishing returns in cost saving.
This is like the major advantage of the silent protagonist, you write the line but it can be delivered in any way the player can imagine vs a fixed delivery every time by a voice actor. Voice actors suit single characters like Geralt and Adam very well, but it's no where near as versitile as an imagined line.

It's one thing to add the models for different races. It's quite another to voice an Elf and Dwarf (same voice for both types) four additional voice actors and line alocations for around 20% of the player base.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. But it's completely off the table and not worth discussing anymore. This is one issue on which Bioware has closed their ears, and I actually understand why. To my eternal horror, the BSN polls show the numbers on voiced vs. non-voiced are about 50/50.

But I still have hope for origin options returning. Especially since even having a single VA voice all origin options (whether they differ in race or not) would only result in a small number of extra lines. Most of your content in DA:O wasn't tailored to your origin or race - just enough to be nuanced and super cool. The firepower behind the idea was roleplay and replay. I bet we can still do that, especially with friendship/rivalry making its exit from the series along with all the extra recording/animating that went with it.

[Uccio]

Races and Origins do not exclude voiced main character. Same person can speak all of them. Just saying.

[AndrahilAdrian]

I agree with this. In an RPG, the player should be able to design the character they want. That's half the fun. A set protagonist may work for a half action half rpg game like Mass Effect, but Dragon Age should have strong character customization; that's a niche that needs to be filled.

[wsandista]

Ukki wrote...

Races and Origins do not exclude voiced main character. Same person can speak all of them. Just saying.

Races and Origins does mean more lines though, and VAs get paid per line, so having Races and Origins can add quite a bit to the cost to the project.

[TheShadowWolf911]

again i would like to point out we could just make male and female, ragerdless of race, have the same voice.

lazy and cheap? yes, but im willing to take it if it means not being a human again.

[brushyourteeth]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

again i would like to point out we could just make male and female, ragerdless of race, have the same voice.

lazy and cheap? yes, but im willing to take it if it means not being a human again.

Surely you mean one female actor for all females of each race and one male actor for all males of each race, right? Because it kinda sounded like you supported one VA for both males and females.

I'm pretty sure you meant the former, and I totally support that. Wendy Braun, who voiced some of the npc's in DA:O including Hespith is a human, voiced a dwarf, and has no more deep a voice than the VA who voiced Athenril, who is an elf. She's an example of someone who would work perfectly across all female race origins.

Though even if we can't choose any race beside human, I still support multiple human origin options. DA:O was originally set to have four (human mage, human noble, human barbarian, human commoner). DAIII could totally do the same.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 17 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[Dr. wonderful]

brushyourteeth wrote...

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

again i would like to point out we could just make male and female, ragerdless of race, have the same voice.

lazy and cheap? yes, but im willing to take it if it means not being a human again.

Surely you mean one female actor for all females of each race and one male actor for all males of each race, right? Because it kinda sounded like you supported one VA for both males and females.

I'm pretty sure you meant the former, and I totally support that. Wendy Braun, who voiced some of the npc's in DA:O including Hespith is a human, voiced a dwarf, and has no more deep a voice than the VA who voiced Athenril, who is an elf. She's an example of someone who would work perfectly across all female race origins.

Though even if we can't choose any race beside human, I still support multiple human origin options. DA:O was originally set to have four (human mage, human noble, human barbarian, human commoner). DAIII could totally do the same.

...Well to be fair, DA2 kind of feels like the Human Commoner origin. I know it isn't in RedCliff like the original version was in, but still.

[TheShadowWolf911]

brushyourteeth wrote...

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

again i would like to point out we could just make male and female, ragerdless of race, have the same voice.

lazy and cheap? yes, but im willing to take it if it means not being a human again.

Surely you mean one female actor for all females of each race and one male actor for all males of each race, right? Because it kinda sounded like you supported one VA for both males and females.

I'm pretty sure you meant the former, and I totally support that. Wendy Braun, who voiced some of the npc's in DA:O including Hespith is a human, voiced a dwarf, and has no more deep a voice than the VA who voiced Athenril, who is an elf. She's an example of someone who would work perfectly across all female race origins.

Though even if we can't choose any race beside human, I still support multiple human origin options. DA:O was originally set to have four (human mage, human noble, human barbarian, human commoner). DAIII could totally do the same.

if i HAVE to be human again.........i wouldn't mind being a Chasind, those guys interest me.

[AkiKishi]

brushyourteeth wrote...

For what it's worth, I agree with you. But it's completely off the table and not worth discussing anymore. This is one issue on which Bioware has closed their ears, and I actually understand why. To my eternal horror, the BSN polls show the numbers on voiced vs. non-voiced are about 50/50.

But I still have hope for origin options returning. Especially since even having a single VA voice all origin options (whether they differ in race or not) would only result in a small number of extra lines. Most of your content in DA:O wasn't tailored to your origin or race - just enough to be nuanced and super cool. The firepower behind the idea was roleplay and replay. I bet we can still do that, especially with friendship/rivalry making its exit from the series along with all the extra recording/animating that went with it.

Playing Deus Ex:HR and Witcher 2 tipped the balance for me. I've never been overly fixated on having my own character though since starting to play JRPGs.

It's more or less established that different accents are used for different races and regions in DA. Unless all the backgrounds are very similiar anyway, one voice is not going to cut it. All this is going to depend on whether we get a something or a someone anyway.

[LeBurns]

I would like more of a DAO setup, but I am sure, 100% positive, that BioWarEA will instead promise the world and then give us an even more stripped down, dummy RPG, with a button. I think they just can't help themselves at this point. Those left working at BioWarEA either have forgotten what a RPG was or they never actually played one.

[animedreamer]

I guess we know who the elves and dwarves are.. just teasing.

Still I have to agree. If anything what im looking forward too in DA3 if it should happen is

1.) Selectable Regions to start in: With the story reflecting my original starting region. If im from Orlai then I'm Orliesean. If I pick Ravin, then I want to be seen as that, especially if I pick human as my race. Perhaps it could reflect what available specializations or classes are available to me, though I would venture if I traveled far enough before picking a specialization other options should open up.

2.) Seletable Race/Gender: We've seen so far 4 races in Thedas, and while that's a pretty small number its just enough that making a origin for the 4 of them is enough (though smaller than the number of ones in origins), that it should be possible. How many potential outcomes could that be with only 3 classes which will or should affect the origin in some way, that's what 11 possible origins which smaller though definitely there changes based on gender. I don't think people would mind playing human as much if your region effected the humans stats. Like how in Skyrim certain humans were better at certain skills than others, not to mention special powers unique to each race/member of said race.

3.) Selectable Origin: Maybe not for every possible Region/Race/class combination, but even if the class decides the origin like in Origins, then do that. Wannabe a Qunari Mage who somehow escaped his Kiratom and decides to try and escape, then make a origin for that.

I don't care if every origin has to be silent because they can't afford the voice actors, so we have to read text like in the old days, so what!!  JUST DO IT!

Modifié par animedreamer, 17 mai 2012 - 12:44 .

[Tirigon]

What I dont like is the half-assed way BioWare did with Shepard and Hawke. Either let us have our own character, or let us play as a fixed one (like in The Witcher etc..).

But this half-assed thing with a fixed character but customisable looks and gender is just dumb.

[PinkShoes]

Lets face it DAO was pretty generic. It was awesome but generic one of the things that really stood out was the origins and everyone loved them. Why take them out?

I swear Bioware was like "okay lets make a list of everything everyone liked in the first game and downgrade it!"

[Truth]

I totally agree with the OP,Bioware BRING THE RACE OPTİONS BACK!!!!!!

[Cutlasskiwi]

Tirigon wrote...

What I dont like is the half-assed way BioWare did with Shepard and Hawke. Either let us have our own character, or let us play as a fixed one (like in The Witcher etc..).

But this half-assed thing with a fixed character but customisable looks and gender is just dumb.

I disagree. I view the Warden as a equally "fixed" character as Hawke, you just had a few more starting points to pick from. Form Ostagar the Warden is just as flexible as Hawke, IMO. It would be another matter had the Origins played a bigger part in the main game, again just my opinion.

There will always be certain character traits that will be locked from the characters, because the story would not work otherwise. (Broad examples) Hawke can't really hate his family or leave Kirkwall, the Warden can't really hate Ferelden/The Wardens or go get help from Orlais.