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[The Angry One]

It's funny how the more one reads the codex, the more ridiculous it makes the game's plot and it's characters.

I imagine this is nothing new to many, but I managed to skip over some interesting details here until now.

Codex: Reaper War, Fall of Earth
At Arcturus Station,
more than a dozen Reaper capital ships engaged the Alliance's Second,
Third, and Fifth Fleets. This was mere screening for the main force.
Dozens more capital ships continued through the Charon Relay,
where the First Fleet had been lying in wait but was soon destroyed.
The Fourth Fleet, near Earth, had a few minutes of advance warning. It
stood no better chance.


So, according to this, Hackett's 3 fleets + Arcturus Station and whatever other defences the system had faced over a dozen Sovereign class ships and, presumably, their attendant Destroyers.
"Over a dozen" is a vague term but I'd guess around 16, to be generous.

Then we have this from the same entry, Battle of Palaven:
Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than
any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his
dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then
turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to
turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against
them--because they could turn faster, and their concentrated firepower
downed several Reaper capital ships.


Take note of the last part. They killed several Sovereigns, and at no point in the entry does it say that the dreadnoughts themselves were lost. In fact it may say the opposite as it implies Coronati jumped with the dreadnoughts, who definitely survives.
Though the following paragraph does mention "massive casualties" for the Turians, it also blames this on Reapers sending wave after wave of reinforcements through the relay.

"Several" is another vague term, the absolute lowest this can refer to is 3. So, Coronati killed at least 3 Sovereign Reapers with clever tactics. Possibly more.

Same entry:
The turians insist that Palaven is not lost--the battle has merely moved
to the ground. Reaper troop transports have dumped hordes of husk to
capture Palaven's inhabitants, but met with little success. Reaper
capital ships are destroying city after city. But much of the turian
fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians
refuse to be intimidated.


Despite the losses, the Turians gave as good as they got, and their fleet was not only still operable after the initial attack, it lasted for at least a month defending Palaven, if not more. Depending on how much time passes in the game.

So what do we learn from this?
Hackett, facing a set amount of Reapers acting as a decoy force, with 3 fleets comprised of dreadnoughts, carriers, cruisers and frigates with thanix cannons could not even kill one Sovereign and, in his eagerness to flee the battle, sacrificed an entire fleet to assure his own safety.

Coronati, facing an endless stream of Reaper reinforcements with an unspecified number of fleets was able to use clever tactics and outmaneuver the Reapers to inflict significant casualties upon them, only being forced to retreat into a defensive position due to sheer numbers, and even then the Turian fleet kept battling toe-to-toe with the Reapers for a long while after this.

Conclusion: Hackett is either incompetent or indoctrinated, conventional victory is made impossible due to terrible leadership, not because the Reapers truly are unstoppable.

Modifié par The Angry One, 12 mai 2012 - 12:43 .

[QuantumSheep13]

It's probably just inconsistent writing, or someone on the writing staff really likes turians. Clearly, Bioware's writers did not communicate all that well with each other. Unless, of course, all of these codex entries were written by the same person. Then I'd be worried.

[The Angry One]

Keep in mind it's all from the same entry (Codex: Reaper War) so I imagine it was all written by the same person.
Overall there does seem to be a Turian bias, the Turians are the only ones making the Reapers pay in blood while everybody else keels over and dies.

Still, putting it all together it makes Hackett look like an idiot. Suddenly I'm imagining him on his dreadnought looking at the battle in Arcturus yelling "Stop exploding you cowards!".
It's a shame because I like Hackett. Another character assassinated.

[The Night Mammoth]

This kind of thing annoys me.

Do BioWare read what they put in this game more than once?

There's a part in the codex, I think it was about the fate of one of the human fleets not stationed around Arcaturus or Earth, maybe the seventh, where a single Destroyer class Reaper tears through the whole fleet, scattering it. 

Yeah, those things. The Reapers that you personally have a hand in killing four of. Those Reapers that require only a small sustained bombardment from three Quarian Frigates using their secondary cannons, to destroy, those Reapers that die in a single Thanix missile to the face. 

Clever, right?

Put Coronati in charge. The man understands that when you can't apparently defeat an enemy conventionally you start getting creative. 

That above is what really p*sses me off when they say the Reapers can't be defeated with normal tactics and ordinary weapons. 

It assume no one in the galaxy as a f*cking creative brain-cell in their head. Even the high0up supposed military bigshot geniuses like Hackett seem completely incapable. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 mai 2012 - 01:00 .

[a.m.p]

I used to like Hackett a lot before ME3. I hate what the crucible plot does to him.

And I still think that the protheans actively fighting for decades or centuries with the relay network down is a much better example of good chances for conventional victory, than anything in the codex.

[Hudathan]

Show me where it says in game where we have enough ships and supplies to keep 'giving as good as we get' until all the Reapers in the galaxy are destroyed, regardless of tactics.

Yeah, Coronati did a good job considering the circumstances but their home world was still lost at the end of the day. That's billions of lives locked down and huge amounts of resources/industry made unavailable. How long does this continue before new ships can no longer be constructed and crews trained to man them?

There were plenty of exchanges between the U.S. and Iraqi army during the war that could be considered fair trades, didn't stop Iraq from losing conventionally over time against a superior force. The insurgency also claimed some success by inflicting casualties on the occupation, didn't change the fact that the U.S. chose to pull out when it did.

[Torrible]

OT, but this thread reminds me of: 

[Wulfram]

Hackett would have had maybe 4 Dreadnoughts at his disposal at Arcturus. Coronati would have had 30 or so

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

The Angry One wrote...

Conclusion: Hackett is either incompetent or indoctrinated

... or he is willingly corroborating with enemy, and/or he has own agenda.
Not sure what is worse.

[Lonsecia]

That or Turians are just awesome.

Personally I didn't like how many of the human top brass acted. It felt likes some of their tactics were a little lacking in, well... tactical forethought.

I also thought that as a specter I'd get less missions associated with humans and a generally more disparate selection of requests than I got. We're supposed to be working as an unbound soldier for the council, not the alliance, yet the game only occasionally hinted at that.
I can understand this more in the second game, though I wonder why it's always a human that reinstates our Specter status, and not one of the other council races. Or rather I'd have preferred the acknowledgement of an alien race deeming me suitable for the task, rather than a character like Udina who I never liked to begin with. I felt like I was his tool, not the councils.

Also: I hate having to use American spellings on every site all the time to avoid that evil red wavy line of evilness.

Another thing that I now ponder: How in the hell did we not get completely wiped out by the Turians in the first place? We're clearly not used to space combat, and it'd seem that even when we have superior numbers, we're only good for cannon fodder.

Modifié par Lonsecia, 12 mai 2012 - 12:58 .

[lillitheris]

Well, yes, obviously they were all dumbasses. They should have built huge walls around all relays.

In defense of the earthlings, it must be noted that they were the first to be attacked (Edit: first of the two, if this is unclear). The turians actually had time to organize for defense – and, by decree of the council, had the largest fleet.

Modifié par lillitheris, 12 mai 2012 - 01:00 .

[Ned Starks Head]

a.m.p wrote...

I used to like Hackett a lot before ME3. I hate what the crucible plot does to him.

And I still think that the protheans actively fighting for decades or centuries with the relay network down is a much better example of good chances for conventional victory, than anything in the codex.

This

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

lillitheris wrote...

In defense of the earthlings, it must be noted that they were the first to be attacked.

Batarians were attacked first.
And earhlings have no excuse, since Reapers invasion was confirmed since events of Arrival. But they've chosen to ignore Shepard, and concentrate on prosecuting him instead.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 12 mai 2012 - 01:23 .

[lillitheris]

Lonsecia wrote...
I also thought that as a specter I'd get less missions associated with humans and a generally more disparate selection of requests than I got.

ME3, Shepard is not a Spectre.

, though I wonder why it's always a human that reinstates our Specter status, and not one of the other council races.

…But it’s not.

Also: I hate having to use American spellings on every site all the time to avoid that evil red wavy line of evilness.

Set your spell checker to use en-GB?

[Noblewolf]

Or the turians are the better fighters like joker says

[Elyiia]

Don't forget, he managed to lose 1/3 of two fleets in the Battle for the Citadel that weren't even involved in the Battle for the Citadel.

[The Angry One]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

This kind of thing annoys me.

Do BioWare read what they put in this game more than once?

There's a part concerning a Reaper destroyer tearing through an entire human fleet.

Yes, one destroyer, those things that you kill four of, apparently tore through I think was the seventh fleet, or maybe the second. Those Reapers that it took three Quarian ships with a bit of sustained fire-power, frigates that weren't using their main guns, to kill. Those Reapers that are destroyed in one ground fired missile.

Seriously? Can't find an entry on this, but that's utterly ridiculous if true, Destroyers have cruiser level firepower at best.

Clever, right?

Put Coronati in charge. The man understands that when you can't apparently defeat an enemy conventionally you start getting creative.

Another interesting tidbit is that while Alliance forces stupidly divided their Sol fleet between Earth and Charon, meaning both got picked apart, Coronati held back and sent unmanned drones to the Turian relay to actually see what was coming in first. Oh my god, tactics!

[Wulfram]

lillitheris wrote...

ME3, Shepard is not a Spectre.

Yes, she is.  From the start, potentially, otherwise the council reinstates you after your meeting.

[Elyiia]

Wulfram wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

ME3, Shepard is not a Spectre.

Yes, she is.  From the start, potentially, otherwise the council reinstates you after your meeting.

Yup, if you're a spectre from ME2 you can go into the room before talking to the council.

[Noblewolf]

[quote]lillitheris wrote...

[quote]Lonsecia wrote...
I also thought that as a specter I'd get less missions associated with humans and a generally more disparate selection of requests than I got.[/quote]

ME3, Shepard is not a Spectre.

Yes he is







http://www.youtube.c...g7h3Vnos#t=591s

Modifié par Noblewolf, 12 mai 2012 - 01:03 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Noblewolf wrote...

Or the turians are the better fighters like joker says

The Turians appreciate the fact that humanity is much more creative and flexible. For defined missions and scenario's, where training-ground tactics are viable, the Turians have anyone beat, but as soon as something goes awry, the Alliance apparently has the upper hand. 

Odd then, that the only cases of creativity we see in this game are from the Turians. 

[Hudathan]

Coronati planned an ambush on the Reaper forces once the war had already begun and he knew when and where to attack in order to enjoy some success. It's not the same as the human fleet with fewer Dreadnaughts having to defend a position vital to the protection of their home planet against 'dozens more capital ships.' They are two completely different situations involving completely different forces that do not compare to one another.

a.m.p wrote...

And I still think that the protheans actively fighting for decades or centuries with the relay network down is a much better example of good chances for conventional victory, than anything in the codex.

It didn't matter at the end of the day and they lost anyway?

Modifié par Hudathan, 12 mai 2012 - 01:05 .

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

The Angry One wrote...

Another interesting tidbit is that while Alliance forces stupidly divided their Sol fleet between Earth and Charon, meaning both got picked apart, Coronati held back and sent unmanned drones to the Turian relay to actually see what was coming in first. Oh my god, tactics!

I think whole human's military response perfectly reflected in "defense committee" response at the start of the game:
(*mouth gaping in horror, almost crying*) - waaaaah! what will we do?? 
this is defense committee, seriously?!

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 12 mai 2012 - 01:23 .

[The Angry One]

Wulfram wrote...

Hackett would have had maybe 4 Dreadnoughts at his disposal at Arcturus. Coronati would have had 30 or so

He also had several cruisers with thanix cannons, providing significant firepower.
Moreover if he had consolidated his fleets at Arcturus he would've had more dreadnoughts.

And are you telling me that with proper tactics, 4 dreadnoughts wouldn't be able to take down ONE Sovereign? ONE?

[The Night Mammoth]

The Angry One wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

This kind of thing annoys me.

Do BioWare read what they put in this game more than once?

There's a part concerning a Reaper destroyer tearing through an entire human fleet.

Yes, one destroyer, those things that you kill four of, apparently tore through I think was the seventh fleet, or maybe the second. Those Reapers that it took three Quarian ships with a bit of sustained fire-power, frigates that weren't using their main guns, to kill. Those Reapers that are destroyed in one ground fired missile.

Seriously? Can't find an entry on this, but that's utterly ridiculous if true, Destroyers have cruiser level firepower at best.

Found it!

It's not as bad as I remember, but still pretty ridiculous. Here, bask in its glory - 

Third FleetStationed at Arcturus Station, the Third Fleet is headed by Admiral Nitesh Singh. When the Reapers came for the station in 2186, Singh had already pulled his command ship, the SSV Logan, back to an ideal firing position for its mass accelerator cannons. The dreadnought's guns managed to slow down a destroyer before it could demolish the Third Fleet, but Singh was forced to retreat in the face of overwhelming opposition from the Reapers.