434 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

The Angry One wrote...

Conclusion: Hackett is either incompetent or indoctrinated, conventional victory is made impossible due to terrible leadership, not because the Reapers truly are unstoppable.

I'm going with that, Hackett was quiet at the beginning, you would have expected a radio message from him that the reapers were coming, I find it odd that he could not get a signal through yet he was able to send a message to go to the mars archives.

[TookYoCookies]

MetioricTest wrote...

"We're about to die OMG WTF HELP!"

They were supposed to be desperate.

 


Since when does Desperation = Complete f*cking stupidity? And utter disregard for Military organization/ Tactics/ Strategy? 

[MetioricTest]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

He could have lessened his losses, inflicted damage on the Reapers, and evacuated Arcturus. 

See now this is making up facts. Anything to further that point is speculation.

I never said those things were facts. 

That phrase 'could have' is important. 

Garrus could have invented a virus that destroys all reapers and cure lung cancer.

GOD Garrus is incompetent.

Strawman, therefore ignored. 

Translation: You have no argument.

"Because the text said he lost I can conclude he made stupid mistakes and got everyone killed in a battle I just made up and this is okay but it's not okay for anyone else to make up stuff because they're not facts."

Wut?

Even from the get go the whole "More than a dozen  = 16!" is an asspull. It could be 49! It's never stated. Don't speculate and make up that a character who is clearly never displayed as being incompetent actually is because if you make up a story about him being an idiot he's an idiot. That's just stupid.

[MetioricTest]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...
Garrus could have invented a virus that destroys all reapers and cure lung cancer.

GOD Garrus is incompetent.

Resorting to ridiculous argument will only make you look ridiculous.

That's the point. I'm paraodying the entire idiocy of "if you make something up that makes a guy look bad even he isn't it's okay if you say "could have."

Try actually countering and making a valid point

[In Exile]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah Shepard's entire dialog in the intro is facepalm worthy.
Though why the defence committee ever thought that Shepard, a soldier who's essentially a glorified grunt who goes where they're told to would have superior space tactics to the people who's job it is to come up with these tactics is never explained.

I mean sure Shepard has encountered Reapers and would be a good advisor, but coming up with a strategy on the spot? Right there? With the Reapers at the gates? What were they thinking?

That's how strategy works. You don't play ahead. You ask random people, the moment something happens, to come up with some kind of magic bullet strategy when there is no time or hope to implement any kind of response.

[MetioricTest]

TookYoCookies wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

"We're about to die OMG WTF HELP!"

They were supposed to be desperate.

 


Since when does Desperation = Complete f*cking stupidity? And utter disregard for Military organization/ Tactics/ Strategy? 

*shrug* the entire start was a bit off, they seemed to want to get Shepard into space ASAP.

I wish you got a little bit of play time on Earth BEFORE The Reapers turned up. It'd make it more impactful and make a little more sense.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

MetioricTest wrote...
That's the point. I'm paraodying the entire idiocy of "if you make something up that makes a guy look bad even he isn't it's okay if you say "could have."

Try actually countering and making a valid point

No, you trying to use straw man fallacy as people rightfully pointed out.
I saw plenty of valid arguments in this thread since start (and in other threads about Hackett suspicious behaviour). 

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 13 mai 2012 - 03:00 .

[The Angry One]

MetioricTest wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...
Garrus could have invented a virus that destroys all reapers and cure lung cancer.

GOD Garrus is incompetent.

Resorting to ridiculous argument will only make you look ridiculous.

That's the point. I'm paraodying the entire idiocy of "if you make something up that makes a guy look bad even he isn't it's okay if you say "could have."

Try actually countering and making a valid point

Point to where I've made anything up, or kindly be silent, troll.

[The Night Mammoth]

MetioricTest wrote...

Translation: You have no argument.

No, it means you used a strawman.

"Because the text said he lost I can conclude he made stupid mistakes and got everyone killed in a battle I just made up and this is okay but it's not okay for anyone else to make up stuff because they're not facts."

Wut?

Heh, you're funny. If I didn't suspect otherwise I'd ignore you for a troll. 

It's more like Hackett demonstratably failing at his job when he shouldn't have. 

Even from the get go the whole "More than a dozen  = 16!" is an asspull. It could be 49! It's never stated.

More than a dozen usually means a number just over 12. If it's anything more than 24 it would say dozens or several dozen, but it doesn't. You'd be making stuff up if you think it's anything more than that. 

Don't speculate and make up that a character who is clearly never displayed as being incompetent actually is because if you make up a story about him being an idiot he's an idiot. That's just stupid.

Yet he is displayed as being incompetent, that's the point.

[TookYoCookies]

MetioricTest wrote...


Translation: You have no argument.

"Because the text said he lost I can conclude he made stupid mistakes and got everyone killed in a battle I just made up and this is okay but it's not okay for anyone else to make up stuff because they're not facts."

Wut?

Even from the get go the whole "More than a dozen  = 16!" is an asspull. It could be 49! It's never stated. Don't speculate and make up that a character who is clearly never displayed as being incompetent actually is because if you make up a story about him being an idiot he's an idiot. That's just stupid.

 


Did you even read the first 1-3 pages of this thread???

Stop over-exagerating about very reasonable speculations(estimations) that were denoted from the codex(the game), as a falice attempt to validate your argument. 

We're not making sh*t up to say hes an idiot, we're saying that given the information we get from the game, this guy must be  a f*cking idiot.

[MetioricTest]

Hell it's also key to note that the Turians took the fight to the Reapers and launched a surprise attack.

While the Alliance where attacked by surprise. It also says "Dozens more" implying even more ships not the same ones again.

And finally it never states that they didn't take any Reapers down.

It also never states that no Turian dreadnoughts weren't destroyed.

Garrus also talks about how much the turian battles with the Reapers are going badly and they have to decide whether or not to give up.

All this stuff about Hackett's fleets roaming around bashing into each other and getting slaughtered is made up speculation.

All the stuff about the Turians being impeccible is made up speculation.

And going by the same logic you use to make these huge leaps to conclusions how come when the Sword Fleet mobilizes they choose Hackett to be the leader and the voice?


[quote]Did you even read the first 1-3 pages of this thread??? [/quote]

yes

[quote]Stop
over-exagerating[/quote]

Thats what you guys are doing, not me. With these fictional events you're making up.

[i]about very reasonable speculations(estimations) that
were denoted from the codex(the game), as a falice attempt to validate
your argument. [/quote]

such as "more than a dozen...Dozens more." equalling 16... Yeah that's reasonable.
"It doesn't say they lost ships." meaning they lost no ships... Yeah that's reasonable.

[quote]We're not making sh*t up to say hes an idiot,
we're saying that given the information we get from the game, this guy
must be  a f*cking idiot.
[/quote]


The information you get from the game is praising him as a general and some very vague accounts in the codex. Everything else you guys are making up yourselves.

Modifié par MetioricTest, 13 mai 2012 - 03:07 .

[WandererRTF]

He could have lessened his losses, inflicted damage on the Reapers, and evacuated Arcturus.

Instead, he lost several fleets, the rest of which were badly damaged, incurred no significant losses on his enemy, and caused the entirety of the Alliance government to be killed.

How exactly? All those goals are either mutually exclusive or then plainly impossible. As seen from what happened with Turians and Asari there is nothing Citadel races can do to stop Reapers from reaching their static targets. Losses were likely as low as they could be, mind you Turians et al had been warned by what happened at Earth. Reaper invasion to Batarian homeworld happened first but no one had any idea of Reaper lack of need for logistics or of their ability to rapid jump relays. So Alliance fleets were caught with their pants down, was it Hacketts fault, no.

Hackett chose to preserve as much of his assets as possible, hence the sacrifice of the single fleet. Likely had he tried to evacuate Arcturus there would not have been anything to evacuate any body with. And same goes with 'to damage' the Reapers, stand up fight with the Reapers is suicidal.

Hard lock? What in blazes are you talking about? Are you saying the capital of the Systems Alliance can take less damage than a cruiser?
And if the Reapers are attacking the station, that should give Hackett ample opportunity to shoot down some capital ships.

Hard lock as in Reapers having a known static target in their (collective) mind that they are after and they are singlemindedly heading for it. Given that none of the Citadel ships (even dreadnoughts) could survive long if facing Reapers face to face the chances that a static installation (which may not have even been armed or armored) are non-existing. So yes, it is quite possible that 'capital of the Alliance' was not the Death Star you seem to envision that it had been - more likely it was just an eggshell with some barrier - and a standard Alliance cruiser could take more beating than what it could.

Modifié par WandererRTF, 13 mai 2012 - 03:08 .

[Chaoswind]

Is like ME1 and the wrong hand salute... The writers should had done a TON more research into the military doctrine and how military command tends to act when fighting different types of enemies, yeah only fictional works have military reactions against a superior technological enemy, but still is better than this...

In Me3 humans are pushovers, heck even the Volus are doing better than us in tactics and adaptability, with was supposed to be our damn strongest point.

[The Angry One]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

More than a dozen usually means a number just over 12. If it's anything more than 24 it would say dozens or several dozen, but it doesn't. You'd be making stuff up if you think it's anything more than that.

Hell if it were something like 18 it would be better to say "a dozen and a half".
Generally "over a dozen" won't mean very many more than 12 so again I think I'm being generous saying 16.

[TookYoCookies]

MetioricTest wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

"We're about to die OMG WTF HELP!"

They were supposed to be desperate.

 


Since when does Desperation = Complete f*cking stupidity? And utter disregard for Military organization/ Tactics/ Strategy? 

*shrug* the entire start was a bit off, they seemed to want to get Shepard into space ASAP.

I wish you got a little bit of play time on Earth BEFORE The Reapers turned up. It'd make it more impactful and make a little more sense.

 


This was one of my biggest problems with the game from the get-go..

No trial, no exposition other than a couple sentences with Anderson as to what happened post-Arrival, no information (or ability to gain information) about your ME2 squadmates, and where they are. Then the defense comittee scene.. 

So contrived to fail.... I agree, more Earth, and a better exposition akin to what they did with ME2 would have made the bombastic first contact with Reapers alot more impactful/meaningful.

[MetioricTest]

It's also worth noting:

The Turians are supposed to be the strongest in terms of military fleet and soldiers in the galaxt.

And The Turians had been preparing for Reaper attacks while Earth was taken down. The entire point of the begining is that no one comes to help Earth because their own fleets and homes are being reinforced.

[The Angry One]

MetioricTest wrote...

Hell it's also key to note that the Turians took the fight to the Reapers and launched a surprise attack.

Because they used unmanned drones to scout the enemy force instead of parking themselves at the relay like morons.

While the Alliance where attacked by surprise. It also says "Dozens more" implying even more ships not the same ones again.

Not at Arcturus.

And finally it never states that they didn't take any Reapers down.

Never says it does, and Hackett directly implies he's never defeated one in a fleet vs. fleet battle later on.

It also never states that no Turian dreadnoughts weren't destroyed.

If any were destroyed it was due to the Reaper reinforcements, as only after this are "massive casualties" mentioned.

Garrus also talks about how much the turian battles with the Reapers are going badly and they have to decide whether or not to give up.

Due to attrition and the time that's passed, the fact remains however that the Turians were making the Reapers pay in blood for everything they did take.

All this stuff about Hackett's fleets roaming around bashing into each other and getting slaughtered is made up speculation.

It's extrapolation based on codex entries and dialog.

All the stuff about the Turians being impeccible is made up speculation.

Nobody said that.

And going by the same logic you use to make these huge leaps to conclusions how come when the Sword Fleet mobilizes they choose Hackett to be the leader and the voice?

Because the plot is daft.

[MetioricTest]

The Angry One wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

More than a dozen usually means a number just over 12. If it's anything more than 24 it would say dozens or several dozen, but it doesn't. You'd be making stuff up if you think it's anything more than that.

Hell if it were something like 18 it would be better to say "a dozen and a half".
Generally "over a dozen" won't mean very many more than 12 so again I think I'm being generous saying 16.

This is trivial nitpicking not sensible speculation.

"More than a dozen" = "Over a dozen" = "Dozens." The idea that because it says "More than a dozen" means it must be 13-16 isn't reasonable at all. And it also ignores "Dozens more." meaning more Reapers joined in shortly.

The Reapers jumped in and got a shot in before the Alliance can React.

When the Turians attacked they jumped in and got a shot in before the Reapers could react.

[The Angry One]

MetioricTest wrote...

It's also worth noting:

The Turians are supposed to be the strongest in terms of military fleet and soldiers in the galaxt.

And The Turians had been preparing for Reaper attacks while Earth was taken down. The entire point of the begining is that no one comes to help Earth because their own fleets and homes are being reinforced.

And Earth wasn't preparing until literally 5 minutes before the Reapers arrived because...?
Considering the time it takes to get to Earth from Charon even at Reaper speeds, this means that while the Batarians were attacked, while they detected the Reaper's long range approach, while Arcturus was being attacked, while the first fleet was being attacked, the defence commitee were sitting on their hands with no plan, panicking.

Charming.

[feliciano2040]

You know what impresses me ?

The majority of "fans" here weren't thinking critically about science-fiction before playing Mass Effect 1. They were taught by Bioware to dig deeper and ask questions into the framework of a Sci-Fi universe in scientific terms.

Now, when they have continuity errors, as all franchises do, the "fans" look down on them for not being "critical" enough.

Really, do you guys insult your teachers at college whenever they make a mistake ?

Do you even study ? Or work ? Anything ?

Modifié par feliciano2040, 13 mai 2012 - 03:15 .

[The Angry One]

MetioricTest wrote...

This is trivial nitpicking not sensible speculation.

"More than a dozen" = "Over a dozen" = "Dozens." The idea that because it says "More than a dozen" means it must be 13-16 isn't reasonable at all.

If it meant dozens, it would've said dozens.

And it also ignores "Dozens more." meaning more Reapers joined in shortly.

At Arcturus Station,
more than a dozen Reaper capital ships engaged the Alliance's Second,
Third, and Fifth Fleets. This was mere screening for the main force.
Dozens more capital ships continued through the Charon Relay,
where the First Fleet had been lying in wait but was soon destroyed.
The Fourth Fleet, near Earth, had a few minutes of advance warning. It
stood no better chance.


This refers to the ones that went to Earth, NOT the fleet that stayed at Arcturus.

The Reapers jumped in and got a shot in before the Alliance can React.

When the Turians attacked they jumped in and got a shot in before the Reapers could react.

And do you know WHY the Turians got a shot in? Due to TACTICS.

For the last freaking time:
The Turians stayed away from the relay and used drones to scout the Reapers.
The Alliance hung around the relays like idiots and got blindsided.

[MetioricTest]

Never says it does, and Hackett directly implies he's never defeated one in a fleet vs. fleet battle later on.

You don't seem to realize that "It never says otherwise" =/= "I can make things up and say they happened."

Due to attrition and the time that's passed, the fact remains however that the Turians were making the Reapers pay in blood for everything they did take.

Because they are the most militarily powerful race in the universe who had time to prepare, and they were still losing badly. This isn't knocking Hackett at all if anything it's praising him.

It's extrapolation based on codex entries and dialog.

It's bad extrapolation. That's the problem. "Over a dozen means 16" for example, is bad extrapolation. "The game is just wrong when they treat Hackett as the real deal." is bad extrapolation.

Because the plot is daft.

So you're saying

"I'm not wrong the game is wrong and makes no sense because my baseless fiction is correct."

instead of

"Yeah I'm wrong my baseless fiction must not be accurate because the game says otherwise."

Hell this is the same codex that mentions Palin.

[Wulfram]

Considering it does say dozens later, I think it's reasonable to assume that the number of Reapers attacking Arcturus, rather than passing through to Earth, was between 13 and 23 Capital Ships. With, i'd assume, an unknown number of Destroyers in support.

Which is certainly more than enough to take on the 3-4 Dreadnoughts in the Arcturus Fleet.

[WandererRTF]

There was also some mention IIRC in one of the books that Alliance doctrine was a responsive one. That is only skeleton forces maintained distant worlds which would call upon the cavalry (from Sol and Arcturus) as needed. What this means against Reapers is that instead of having troops dispersed into ready combat groupings you essentially have them lined up like P-40s in Pearl Harbor on December 7 1941. It was not chosen by the Alliance because it was the best, it was chosen because Alliance had too much space to cover - in other words the rapid expansion of humanity did not leave other solutions.

Also lack of warning is not so surprising since Reapers likely jammed all comms, only the newfangled quantum comms seem to work.

[matthewmi]

So you want Hackett to put the entire alliance fleet in one place? That seems to be the tactic being suggested, yeah nothing bad can happen with that plan.