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[The Night Mammoth]

lillitheris wrote...

The entry says, in particular: “…but Singh was forced to retreat in the face of overwhelming opposition from the Reapers.” Emphasis mine. So, a single ship was unable to wipe out the Third, and then a larger contingent forced retreat.

This single destroyer was unable to because a Dreadnought simply slowed it down. It wasn't killed. The fleet wasn't about to be demolished by a concentrated force of several Sovereign-class Reapers, it was a lonely destroyer that was about to do the job. 

Once that destroyer was sufficiently slowed down, the fleet retreated in face of other Reapers moving against them. 

[wicked_being]

Eain wrote...

"Thats it?! That's our plan?!"

Consider that this fool likely graduated from the same academy as Hackett.

Haha true. And that one guy in the end whose final words were "I...don't know."

[The Angry One]

strive wrote...

I'm okay with the Turians putting up a much better fight. They've been space faring for 1000+ years. They're a military/honor driven society. They are the best non Reaper military in the galaxy. With space warfare in their blood for countless generations. While the humans have been on the scene for 50 years and have had only a handful of major space battles in their history.

The whole thing with the humans is how fast they've adapted to galactic life in only a few decades.
They pushed back the Turians at Shanxi and have a fleet technologically on par with them, the Turians advanced in some areas and them in others.

After the Citadel fleet was crippled in ME1, the Alliance was said to have one of the strongest military forces in the galaxy, and now they get completely flattened in less than a day while the Turians hold out for far longer?
This isn't just a question of attrition.

[a.m.p]

strive wrote...

I'm okay with the Turians putting up a much better fight. They've been space faring for 1000+ years. They're a military/honor driven society. They are the best non Reaper military in the galaxy. With space warfare in their blood for countless generations. While the humans have been on the scene for 50 years and have had only a handful of major space battles in their history.

Which did not stop the humans who barely crawled out into space from successfully fighting against them in the First Contact War.

Edit: ninja'd.

@The Angry One
I'm still collecting threads about conventional warfare. Can I have this one?

Modifié par a.m.p, 12 mai 2012 - 01:40 .

[The Angry One]

a.m.p wrote...

@The Angry One
I'm still collecting threads about conventional warfare. Can I have this one?

Of course.

[Edolix]

According to the Mass Effect wiki, at the start of ME3 the turians had a total of about 40 dreadnaughts, whilst the Alliance only had 9. That's a huge difference.

[The Angry One]

Edolix wrote...

According to the Mass Effect wiki, at the start of ME3 the turians had a total of about 40 dreadnaughts, whilst the Alliance only had 9. That's a huge difference.

That's a huge difference in firepower, not tactics. You could have 100 dreadnoughts and still lose them all if you use Hackett's "pants down" strategy.

[Noelemahc]

Edolix wrote...

According to the Mass Effect wiki, at the start of ME3 the turians had a total of about 40 dreadnaughts, whilst the Alliance only had 9. That's a huge difference.

Still doesn't excuse how a fleet that's EXPECTING the Reapers fails to demolish a single Destroyer, dontcha think? That's not a blitzkrieg we're seeing here, not yet. And even then, a blitzkrieg only really works until it runs into expecting forces and is then pushed into trench warfare. That's what happened at Palaven. Why the trenches for humans had to happen on Earth instead of Arcturus is a mystery for the ages.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 12 mai 2012 - 01:55 .

[goofyomnivore]

Which did not stop the humans who barely crawled out into space from successfully fighting against them in the First Contact War.

The Turians would of crushed the Alliance without intervention from the Salarians/Asari. The Alliance won like one battle.

[Noelemahc]

strive wrote...

Which did not stop the humans who barely crawled out into space from successfully fighting against them in the First Contact War.

The Turians would of crushed the Alliance without intervention from the Salarians/Asari. The Alliance won like one battle.

Ayup, the ME: Evolution comics show the final day of the First Contact War. Humanity was being pounded into the ground on the front lines.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 12 mai 2012 - 01:58 .

[The Angry One]

Noelemahc wrote...

Still doesn't excuse how a fleet that's EXPECTING the Reapers fails to demolish a single Destroyer, dontcha think? That's not a blitzkrieg we're seeing here, not yet. And even then, a blitzkrieg only really works until it runs into expecting forces and is then pushed into trench warfare. That's what happened at Palaven. Why the trenches for humans had to happen on Earth instead of Arcturus is a mystery for the ages.

Well, the main Reaper force bypassed Arcturus entirely, however the fact remains that the Alliance fleets were poorly spread out and Hackett lost so damn fast that everyone on Arcturus Station died.
So basically Hackett, with 3 fleets, couldn't hold out long enough to evacuate the prime minister from what was likely one of the most well armed stations in the galaxy. Right.

Noelemahc wrote...

strive wrote...

Which
did not stop the humans who barely crawled out into space from
successfully fighting against them in the First Contact War.

The
Turians would of crushed the Alliance without intervention from the
Salarians/Asari. The Alliance won like one battle.

Ayup, the
ME: Evolution comics show the final day of the First Contact War.
Humanity was being pounded into the ground on the front lines.

On the ground, sure. But the fact remains they won the battle in space. The Turians might've crushed them by sheer numbers but the humans were still able to repel them with far, far less advanced ships than they have now.

Modifié par The Angry One, 12 mai 2012 - 02:01 .

[goofyomnivore]

Yeah.. the grand Alliance military was fighting versus the equivalent of the Turian police, and barely retook Shanxi. After the Turians lost their 'police patrol stopping an ignorant species from activating a relay' they began to mobilize their actual military and were stopped by the Salarians/Asari.

[The Angry One]

strive wrote...

Yeah.. the grand Alliance military was fighting versus the equivalent of the Turian police, and barely retook Shanxi. After the Turians lost their 'police patrol stopping an ignorant species from activating a relay' they began to mobilize their actual military and were stopped by the Salarians/Asari.

Erm. Such a fleet would have to be well armed by definition, if it wants to actually stop unknowns from opening relays without permission.

[JadedLibertine]

So if TIM had not been turned into an indoctrinated meat puppet to serve the plot contrivances, then joining up with him may have made more sense as he at least had something of a coherent plan. And he has the only VA cooler than Lance Henriksen.

[Edolix]

The Angry One wrote...

Edolix wrote...

According to the Mass Effect wiki, at the start of ME3 the turians had a total of about 40 dreadnaughts, whilst the Alliance only had 9. That's a huge difference.

That's a huge difference in firepower, not tactics. You could have 100 dreadnoughts and still lose them all if you use Hackett's "pants down" strategy.

Perhaps, but that lack of firepower could easily compromise any existing strategies that Hackett could have used.

I'll use that example you used in your original post, about the turians and their FTL tactic. The turians have a truckload of dreadnaughts spread across all of their fleets so this was naturally a very viable tactic for them. The Alliance have 9 dreadnaughts spread across about 5 different fleets, which would leave about 2/3 dreadnaughts per fleet. At the battle of Arcturus, they only had the Second, Third and Fifth fleets present. That's about 5 dreadnaughts. Hardly enough to make a difference.  Plus, Hackett was taken completely by surprise.

I'm sure Hackett could have used that same FTL strategy, using cruisers/frigates instead. However, they would have most likely barely scratched the Sovereigns and would have most likely ended up getting destroyed in the process.

Modifié par Edolix, 12 mai 2012 - 02:07 .

[goofyomnivore]

The Alliance sent the whole 2nd Fleet versus basically a police patrol in hostile/unknown territory with no supply lines.. It isn't surprising they won.

Modifié par strive, 12 mai 2012 - 02:11 .

[Chaoswind]

I agree is painfully retarded how the humans manage to get owned that badly.

Also the whole leadership seem like incompetent idiots and we are supposed to be respected for our cunning military tactics and adaptability :/

I know the system alliance fleet is small compared to the Turians and asari, but we are almost on par with the salarians, yet we are losing almost as badly as the batarians (that got screwed by indoctrinated leadership.

[The Night Mammoth]

Edolix wrote...

Plus, Hackett was taken completely by surprise.

He had fair enough warning. The fleets were in position before the Reapers actually arrived. 

I'm sure Hackett could have used that same FTL strategy, using cruisers/frigates instead. However, they would have most likely barely scratched the Sovereigns and would have most likely ended up getting destroyed in the process.

Depends on how he uses them and how many he uses. 

[The Angry One]

Edolix wrote...

Perhaps, but that lack of firepower could easily compromise any existing strategies that Hackett could have used.

I'll use that example you used in your original post, about the turians and their FTL tactic. The turians have a truckload of dreadnaughts spread across all of their fleets so this was naturally a very viable tactic for them.

The number of dreadnoughts used in the tactic isn't specified. Also, you're ignoring being able to use cruisers for this tactic, while frigates can repel Destroyers.

The Alliance have 9 dreadnaughts spread across about 5 different fleets, which would leave about 2/3 dreadnaughts per fleet. At the battle of Arcturus, they only had the Second, Third and Fifth fleets present. That's about 5 dreadnaughts. Hardly enough to make a difference.  Plus, Hackett was taken completely by surprise.

As I've said, spreading out the fleets was an immense tactical blunder. They should have consolidated at Arcturus Station, or in Sol (NOT Charon or in orbit of Earth), not both.
Also, Hackett was NOT taken by surprise. They knew the Reapers were coming from Batarian space.

I'm sure Hackett could have used that same FTL strategy, using cruisers/frigates instead. However, they would have most likely barely scratched the Sovereigns and would have most likely ended up getting destroyed in the process.

One dreadnought plus however many cruisers and frigates that can be attached to them.
If a frigate sized thanix cannon can provide cruiser level firepower, then a cruiser scale would provide even more, and contrary to some claims they DO scale up (e.g. the Kwunu).

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Chaoswind wrote...

I agree is painfully retarded how the humans manage to get owned that badly.

Also the whole leadership seem like incompetent idiots and we are supposed to be respected for our cunning military tactics and adaptability :/

I know the system alliance fleet is small compared to the Turians and asari, but we are almost on par with the salarians, yet we are losing almost as badly as the batarians (that got screwed by indoctrinated leadership.

They way humans aptitude as a race were shown in ME3, you kind of see why Council didn't even consider them joining initially, and even after they've joined they were kept in kind of "special seat". You'd think that only because of Shepard's massive effort they weren't dismissed as being kindergarden-level.

[goofyomnivore]

I agree is painfully retarded how the humans manage to get owned that badly.

I think it is more annoying how Mary Sue humanity is. Having extremes on both sides is annoying, but with the way the trends had gone throughout the last two games I was expecting one dreadnaught manned by Hackett to take out half a dozen Sovereign class Reapers or something stupid.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Edolix wrote...
Plus, Hackett was taken completely by surprise.

Huh?!
I thought Hackett was one of the top brass who actually took Shepard's warnings seriously? He sent him to do Arrival, and after it it was pretty much clear that invasion has became imminent.
Or was it all just an act and he was just laughing behind Shep's back, dismissing him as everybody else?

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 12 mai 2012 - 02:18 .

[The Night Mammoth]

strive wrote...

I agree is painfully retarded how the humans manage to get owned that badly.

I think it is more annoying how Mary Sue humanity is. Having extremes on both sides is annoying, but with the way the trends had gone throughout the last two games I was expecting one dreadnaught manned by Hackett to take out half a dozen Sovereign class Reapers or something stupid.

A happy medium would have been nice. 

Maybe something to actually give some sort of reason for Admiral Hackett to be in his position as head of the fleet. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 mai 2012 - 02:19 .

[Noelemahc]

One dreadnought plus however many cruisers and frigates that can be attached to them.
If a frigate sized thanix cannon can provide cruiser level firepower, then a cruiser scale would provide even more, and contrary to some claims they DO scale up (e.g. the Kwunu).

Everyone, including the game's own writers, consistently forget that Thanix has become semi-standard issue in Turian and human fleets by mid-ME2. Which is what, eight, ten months before ME3? I highly doubt ME2's TV series-like storytelling takes up less than four months overal.

Totally plausible space of time for humans to rearm their ships with Thanix cannons or Thanix missiles by the time the Reapers are here. At least rearm the ships guarding Arcturus, maybe mount some high-caliber models onto the station itself?

Modifié par Noelemahc, 12 mai 2012 - 02:21 .

[goofyomnivore]

Maybe the defense committee demanded some ships over Earth to possibly save their own hides for an evacuation if Shepard was correct? Maybe for world/political leaders as well? I have no idea why he split his armada up.

Modifié par strive, 12 mai 2012 - 02:23 .