84 réponses à ce sujet

[Rudy Lis]

Delta_V2 wrote...

With the stability mod, the Valkyrie's accuracy is acceptable for most situations.  You're not going to be landing headshots at long range, but whatever.  Its primary drawback is its weight.  Ultimately, it is a moderately more effective Vindicator that, for some reason, weighs as much as a Revenant.  I still use it because I think it looks cool and I like the two round burst.  Insanity isn't that hard, so I can get away without min-maxing my weapons.

Well, I wouldn't say Valkyrie is more effective Vindicator, since latter needs only dampner to practically totally negate muzzle climb (and it's spread pretty decent as is), while Valkyrie for being more accurate longs for scope. Yet with it it became capable on landing headshots at ~30-50 metres. Beyond that few rifles are that accurate. Whether or not you want to sacrifice both mods for that or not - is up to you.

Delta_V2 wrote...

The Hurricane is a highly situational weapon.  It melts faces at close range, especially with Explosive Incendiary ammo, but the muzzle climb makes it useless at range.  That's why I only pair it with a sniper.

At close range (not point blank) it still got enormous spread. And even with IEA, it's not most effective SMG out there, IMHO.

Delta_V2 wrote...

I hate the Crusader.  The recoil is horrible and it weighs a ton.  The only reason I see to use it over the Carnifex, Paladin, or Saber is its innate cover penetration, which simply does not outweigh its disadvantages.

I can live with recoil, it's quite easy to compensate, it has decent RoF, almost on par with Scimitar and I don't care about Shepard's equipment weight, since even without Crusader it's -200% ). Saber for me is less acceptable than Crusader.

Delta_V2 wrote...

The Eagle does so little damage it's pathetic.  I'm pretty sure an Eagle X has a lower dps than a Predator I.  That is just absoluty sad.  Sure, it becomes more effective with ammo powers, but so does every other rapid-fire weapon.

Slow firing weapons also wins from ammo powers.

Delta_V2 wrote...

The Valiant is amazing.  The only sniper I prefer over it is the Black Widow, and even then, the Black Widow is only truly better when you're dealing with lots of armored targets.  Mail-slotting three guardians in a single cloak cycle is awesome.

Black Widow is only better without ammo powers/mods/bonuses whatsoever and because Valiant always has that 30+3 rounds ammo supply regardless of grade.

JaegerBane wrote...

Indeed - I personally started off using it to complement my Valiant and Particle Rifle. I also found it very effective on big targets - the damage per round and rapid fire rate meant it tears up protection on stuff like Brutes and Atlases pretty quick.

It's not fastest, nor most effective there - spread is too big and appetite for munitions is too great. It's good for team-mates (since they apparently have AimBot 2185 with cheated ammo supply installed), but for myself I prefer other models - more accurate and more economical (less voracious I'd say).

JaegerBane wrote...

The Crusader hasn't been balanced properly, imho. It's one of the heaviest weapons in the entire game - it should have the stats of an upgraded Graal, if its weight is anything to go by. I've yet to see a good reason to use it, which is a shame, considering it's got a nice model.

I don't care about looks, but for me Crusader's weight is one and only example in whole game logic graced with her presence - at least that weight could compensate recoil, since, say, SMG light materials has no effect on SMGs' recoil and muzzle flip. Apparently they rejected our laws of physics and replaced them with their own.

JaegerBane wrote...

Deciding between the Valiant and the BW is one of the harder choices of the game - neither is clearly better than the other.

With any decent ammo power and ammo supply at hand Valiant is better and faster.

[Tsardova]

Single Player
===========================================
Pistol: Carnifex (clip size issue with Paladin)
Assault riffle: Phaeston/ Revenant
Sniper: Black Widow/ Indra
SMG: Tempest
Shotgun: Wraith
=====================================================

Multi
=====================================================
Pistol: Paladin
Assault Rifle: Geth Pulse rifle
Sniper rifle: Black Widow
SMG: Geth SMG
Shotgun: Wraith

[Ageless Face]

Pistol: Scorpion
Assault Rifle: Revenant
Sniper: Black Widow
Shotgun: Graal
SMG: Pass...

[gearseffect]

Pistol: Phalanx, (miss the Heavy version of ME2 with the Laser sight and the massive power it had) or sometimes for the hell of it Scorpion.
Assault Rifle: Revenant, or sometimes for the hell of it I use, Avenger, Valkyrie, Collector Rifle, Chakram Launcher, M-99 Saber, Phaeston, or Particle Rifle
Sniper: Incisor, Indra, Black Widow, or Widow
SMG: I really hate SMGs I don't EVER USE THEM!
Shot Gun: Disciple. My Shep got his from his one true love Samara

[siha13]

Sniper: Black Widow all the way!!!!

[Abraham_uk]

Fortack wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

Shotgun: Claymore
Pistol: Claymore
SMG: Claymore
Assault Rifle: Claymore
Sniper Rifle: Claymore

I find it very difficult to put down the Claymore.

Yeah, me too

Damn. I think I need a few more upgrades to use that weapon well.
It weighs a ton and has a slow rate of fire.
Given a few upgrades it could rock. It was my favourite shotgun in Mass Effect 2.
In Mass Effect 3, most guns aren't very good unless they reach level V and beyond.

[SojournerN7]

Pistol: Phalanx
SMG: Locust
AR: Particle Rifle or Mattock
Sniper Rifle: Mantis
Shotgun: Wraith

Generally I only use the Phalanx and Wraith these days.

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
It's not fastest, nor most effective there - spread is too big and appetite for munitions is too great. It's good for team-mates (since they apparently have AimBot 2185 with cheated ammo supply installed), but for myself I prefer other models - more accurate and more economical (less voracious I'd say).

Its definitely the most effective at shorter ranges - if you're close enough to be getting all shots on target then it outperforms everything else, as its damage per shot is very high for a submachine gun and its actual firing rate is similar to the Phaeston. It is using 2 rounds per 'shot' but this isn't really that big a deal with decent ammo mods.

The only other submachine gun that is really worth using is the Hornet, and aside from the accuracy issues, its in a similar boat to the Hurricane - small clip and small total supply. The rest of the SMGs are a waste of time.

JaegerBane wrote...
I don't care about looks, but for me Crusader's weight is one and only example in whole game logic graced with her presence - at least that weight could compensate recoil, since, say, SMG light materials has no effect on SMGs' recoil and muzzle flip. Apparently they rejected our laws of physics and replaced them with their own.

According to the codex, weight plays little involvement in mitigating recoil - thats largely down to the mass effect field (the mass of the round itself is mostly artificial and depends mainly on how much of a current is being ran through the ME core, hence the resulting recoil is up in the air). The slug itself has been artificially lightened and wasn't very massive to begin with, and there's no exhaust gasses to consider either, so I'm not sure how the recoil would manifest.

That said, I was mainly talking about game mechanics. We're talking about a weapon that's heavier than any assault rifle and shares its weight with massive guns like the BW - it should really have better stats than a crap version of the Paladin.

With any decent ammo power and ammo supply at hand Valiant is better and faster.

Perhaps. It's no doubt the most practical choice under most scenarios. Whether or not it can keep up against big targets is up in the air, though I suspect that would still fall in the Valiant's favour.

[xsdob]

Chakram launcher, I would sometimes do entire missions with just this gun and a tempest for close quarters.

[themikefest]

^ I agree

[Zolt51]

AR: I used to be a Phaeston and Revenant fan, but the Mattock has me converted for good now. Even though I have it at lvl 2 only.
Pistol: Carnifex if it's my main weapon (Adept builds). Predator as a light backup weapon, still surprisingly effective.
Sniper: Mantis X. Not that I really have a choice. N7 rank 300 and still no Widow. Curse my stupid luck
I am absolutely worthless with shotguns and SMGs, no matter what.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

Its definitely the most effective at shorter ranges - if you're close enough to be getting all shots on target then it outperforms everything else, as its damage per shot is very high for a submachine gun and its actual firing rate is similar to the Phaeston. It is using 2 rounds per 'shot' but this isn't really that big a deal with decent ammo mods.

Even with mods Hurricane is extremely voracious and that double-shot bug/feature only worsens the case. By my tests Hurricane is slowest and less economical SMG.
And if we talk about point-blank distance, it's better to resort to Hornet or Raider.

JaegerBane wrote...

The only other submachine gun that is really worth using is the Hornet, and aside from the accuracy issues, its in a similar boat to the Hurricane - small clip and small total supply. The rest of the SMGs are a waste of time.

Disagree on that (ammo wise).
Hornet has quite muzzle climb, not as pronounced as Hurricane, but still, quite significant. Not very comfortable to correct on PC, even with switching mouse speed on the go. And due lack of stabilizing dampner for SMGs he's not that accurate out of cover on longer ranges.
Shuriken, though weak and slow, with IEA could be quite devestative on small and mid game, with DA/WA could be used for effective long range shield/barrier stripping. Large total ammo supply and low default weight make it decent for those who have access to IEA and needs lightweight "clean-up" weapon.
Locust is extremely accurate, so he lands most rounds on target on any distance, thus compensating for small mag (not fully, though). Of course, for better efficiency against soft targets (and especially armoured) it requires IEA or at least AP, but with DA/WA he's good at shield stripping, helping you to conserve ammo for other weapons.
Tempest is "spherical SMG in vacuum", has good ammo supply, decent RoF, acceptable muzzle climb and spread (at least for shooting on big game). With IEA I tend to use three latter, without them - depending on situation, if mission revolves around longer ranges and fewer enemies, then I stick to Shuriken and Locust, otherwise Tempest. If I want some point-blank SMG extreme, then Hornet. But really, I prefer shotguns for such activities.

JaegerBane wrote...

According to the codex, weight plays little involvement in mitigating recoil - thats largely down to the mass effect field (the mass of the round itself is mostly artificial and depends mainly on how much of a current is being ran through the ME core, hence the resulting recoil is up in the air). The slug itself has been artificially lightened and wasn't very massive to begin with, and there's no exhaust gasses to consider either, so I'm not sure how the recoil would manifest.

If so, then why all the fuss about "recoil braking human arm" or "heavy-weight"? If they used "throwing energy = recoil energy" and first is enormous due projectiles' "hypervelocity", then weapon's weight should play some role in negating recoil and muzzle climb. Only it didn't - because upgrading weapons makes them more powerful and lighter. Non-Euclidian engineering and Non-Newtonian physics?

JaegerBane wrote...

That said, I was mainly talking about game mechanics. We're talking about a weapon that's heavier than any assault rifle and shares its weight with massive guns like the BW - it should really have better stats than a crap version of the Paladin.

In-game handguns makes little sense, especially powerful ones - if compact Paladin or Carnifex are capable to generate more energy than rifles per shot, per mag and per total ammo carried that's really questionnable - why all dances with "huge Widow weight" and size if compact pistol could do that better?

JaegerBane wrote...

Perhaps. It's no doubt the most practical choice under most scenarios. Whether or not it can keep up against big targets is up in the air, though I suspect that would still fall in the Valiant's favour.

Your suspicion is correct - Valiant will lose to, say, Black Widow only for long engagements with heavily armoured targets without ammo powers, weapon mods, armour and Glyph's bonuses and access to spare ammo pick-ups - simply because 30+3 always and to bring down Banshee's armour in such case, you need ~ 36 Valiant shots. For comparison - Black Widow could do that in 16.

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
Even with mods Hurricane is extremely voracious and that double-shot bug/feature only worsens the case. By my tests Hurricane is slowest and less economical SMG.
And if we talk about point-blank distance, it's better to resort to Hornet or Raider.

I'm not sure about the accuracy of that. The Hornet I could see being a contender if one managed the refire delay perfectly - in which case the 1000rpm would become closer to being its overall fire rate rather than rate per burst. The Raider is several times the weight and is from an entirely different class, so I'm not sure the comparison in vacuum means anything.

The basic point is that I would question how fair the comparison is if you've found that the Hurricane, at short range, is the slowest SMG. We're talking about a weapon doing nearly twice the damage per shot and only a slightly lower rate of fire - when you factor in ME3's bias towards heavier damage per shot, I'm not sure how thats possible.

Disagree on that (ammo wise).
Hornet has quite muzzle climb, not as pronounced as Hurricane, but still, quite significant. Not very comfortable to correct on PC, even with switching mouse speed on the go. And due lack of stabilizing dampner for SMGs he's not that accurate out of cover on longer ranges.
Shuriken, though weak and slow, with IEA could be quite devestative on small and mid game, with DA/WA could be used for effective long range shield/barrier stripping. Large total ammo supply and low default weight make it decent for those who have access to IEA and needs lightweight "clean-up" weapon.
Locust is extremely accurate, so he lands most rounds on target on any distance, thus compensating for small mag (not fully, though). Of course, for better efficiency against soft targets (and especially armoured) it requires IEA or at least AP, but with DA/WA he's good at shield stripping, helping you to conserve ammo for other weapons.
Tempest is "spherical SMG in vacuum", has good ammo supply, decent RoF, acceptable muzzle climb and spread (at least for shooting on big game). With IEA I tend to use three latter, without them - depending on situation, if mission revolves around longer ranges and fewer enemies, then I stick to Shuriken and Locust, otherwise Tempest. If I want some point-blank SMG extreme, then Hornet. But really, I prefer shotguns for such activities.

I would consider how much theorycrafting has gone into this. The Locust, for instance, sounds good on paper but in reality simply doesn't do enough damage to be worthwhile against any target. The Tempest is a fair SMG but again, is let down by its very low damage per shot, making it virtually useless against any target beyond cannon fodder. I'm not going to even bother pointing out whats wrong with the shuriken, as its painfully obvious - any weapon that needs IEA just to be functional should be self-evidently useless.

I think the main issue is that both the Hornet and the Hurricane need a bit of discipline in firing, as their recoils can be problematic - but its hardly something that is difficult to adapt to and their DPS to weight ratio is significantly higher.

JaegerBane wrote...
If so, then why all the fuss about "recoil braking human arm" or "heavy-weight"? If they used "throwing energy = recoil energy" and first is enormous due projectiles' "hypervelocity", then weapon's weight should play some role in negating recoil and muzzle climb. Only it didn't - because upgrading weapons makes them more powerful and lighter. Non-Euclidian engineering and Non-Newtonian physics?

The mass of the round is also a contributory factor. In this case the mass is almost nil. Still, things like the widow fire the rounds at such insane velocities that even with a small round it's recoil is savage.

In-game handguns makes little sense, especially powerful ones - if compact Paladin or Carnifex are capable to generate more energy than rifles per shot, per mag and per total ammo carried that's really questionnable - why all dances with "huge Widow weight" and size if compact pistol could do that better?

Not really sure what your point is. As I said, I'm talking about game mechanics - the logic may be off about pistol performance but this is irrelevant to a situation where a gun's weight to performance ratio basically renders it unusable. Surely the purpose of putting this stuff in game is for it to be used?

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm not sure about the accuracy of that. The Hornet I could see being a contender if one managed the refire delay perfectly - in which case the 1000rpm would become closer to being its overall fire rate rather than rate per burst.

 
What's not sure? Hornet is more accurate, more controllable, less voracious, thus you can open fire from longer distance, fire longer, reload less and thus dispose of enemy faster, plus because of better ammo economy, you can deal damage longer.
That's, of course, Soldier's SP experience only, I have zero wishes to play MP.

JaegerBane wrote...

The Raider is several times the weight and is from an entirely different class, so I'm not sure the comparison in vacuum means anything.

As you know, I don't care about weight, so it means "how fast you'll dispose of target on certain range". But mostly pointing out on fact that I don't see much meaning in SMGs "as is", outside of shield-stripping and only because using them for that duty you just conserve ammo for more "valuable" weapons.

JaegerBane wrote...

The basic point is that I would question how fair the comparison is if you've found that the Hurricane, at short range, is the slowest SMG. We're talking about a weapon doing nearly twice the damage per shot and only a slightly lower rate of fire - when you factor in ME3's bias towards heavier damage per shot, I'm not sure how thats possible.

If it tooks more time to dispose same target, in relatively same environment (since we don't have normal shooting range with static targets, nor we have a ArmA/OFP-like "sandbox", where you can test whatever you want in any way you want, thus limiting my chances to exactly copy same situation) and requires spending greater amount of ammo, thus requiring more reloads -  than it's slower. 1-2-3-4-5 seconds, but slower.

JaegerBane wrote...

I would consider how much theorycrafting has gone into this.

None. Only practice, stopwatches and repeatitions.

JaegerBane wrote...

The Locust, for instance, sounds good on paper but in reality simply doesn't do enough damage to be worthwhile against any target. The Tempest is a fair SMG but again, is let down by its very low damage per shot, making it virtually useless against any target beyond cannon fodder. I'm not going to even bother pointing out whats wrong with the shuriken, as its painfully obvious - any weapon that needs IEA just to be functional should be self-evidently useless.

Nice jab on IEA, I like. Only I don't get it - if you have access to ammo power, why not use it? No one apparently blaming adepts for using throw, warp, singularity and stasis (or whatever they have). Because without decent ammo powers, we end up only with high-power weapons dealing normal damage and even your favorite Scimitar will turn into firecracker, barely capable to scratch anything big.
Of course, if you want to compare weapons "as is" without any "side effects", then I agree. In such conditions Hurricane will be better than last trio. Not sure for Hornet (I just don't have my records on this PC), but IIRC, Hornet wins due better accuracy, yet it more tiring to trigger finger than Hurricane. Regardless, without mods/ammo powers, none of them are capable to deal with big game without ammo restock.

JaegerBane wrote...

I think the main issue is that both the Hornet and the Hurricane need a bit of discipline in firing, as their recoils can be problematic - but its hardly something that is difficult to adapt to and their DPS to weight ratio is significantly higher.

There is no discipline, only repeatitive more or less constant application of force to mouse. I think that muzzle climb is design oversight from console controls - if on gamepads elevation/declination is controlled via one of those little joysticks, that would explain that, since joystick is not actually moving anywhere, and with mouse you have to move it constantly to compensate muzzle climb. Moreso Hurricane, of course, if fired in full-auto. Bursts somewhat slightly negates than, but if you rely on burst - why not grab Hornet instead?

JaegerBane wrote...

The mass of the round is also a contributory factor. In this case the mass is almost nil. Still, things like the widow fire the rounds at such insane velocities that even with a small round it's recoil is savage.

The one and only problem - that velocity is insane only on paper, because either by tracers or "flash-splash" method that velocity is not even close to ME1. Yes, faster than ME2, but still slowpokey. So I see no logical reason for such recoil and muzzle climb. Especially on weapons where barrel axis height located on same axis Shepard places buttstock against his shoulder.

JaegerBane wrote...

Not really sure what your point is. As I said, I'm talking about game mechanics - the logic may be off about pistol performance but this is irrelevant to a situation where a gun's weight to performance ratio basically renders it unusable. Surely the purpose of putting this stuff in game is for it to be used?

Well, now I'm not sure what you point is now. Probably we talking about same thing only using different words. Because I also talking about game mechanic, but with logic. Even if we drop weapons cross-classes, i.e. will compare sniper rifles to sniper rifles, some weight-to-performance ratios (again, with pinch of logic) are barely meaningful.

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
What's not sure? Hornet is more accurate, more controllable, less voracious, thus you can open fire from longer distance, fire longer, reload less and thus dispose of enemy faster, plus because of better ammo economy, you can deal damage longer.
That's, of course, Soldier's SP experience only, I have zero wishes to play MP.

As you know, I don't care about weight, so it means "how fast you'll dispose of target on certain range". But mostly pointing out on fact that I don't see much meaning in SMGs "as is", outside of shield-stripping and only because using them for that duty you just conserve ammo for more "valuable" weapons.

I think we've misunderstood each other - I was agreeing that the Hornet is likely to be a superior SMG due to its substantial stopping power and fast fire rate. I thought you were saying the Hurricane was the least capable SMG, ergo inferior to things like Shurikens and Locusts.... that was the part I was questioning.

As for the Raider.... well, really, if you're not bothered about weight, then I can see where you're going there. I'm not sure I understand the logic behind ignoring weight (considering the huge effect it has gameplay). Even then, I don't see what you're gaining from it when you've already got things like the hornet.

Nice jab on IEA, I like. Only I don't get it - if you have access to ammo power, why not use it? No one apparently blaming adepts for using throw, warp, singularity and stasis (or whatever they have). Because without decent ammo powers, we end up only with high-power weapons dealing normal damage and even your favorite Scimitar will turn into firecracker, barely capable to scratch anything big.
Of course, if you want to compare weapons "as is" without any "side effects", then I agree. In such conditions Hurricane will be better than last trio. Not sure for Hornet (I just don't have my records on this PC), but IIRC, Hornet wins due better accuracy, yet it more tiring to trigger finger than Hurricane. Regardless, without mods/ammo powers, none of them are capable to deal with big game without ammo restock.

I think the basic issue is that IEA obscures the weapon performance, due to its own power. Sure, it has major effects on a number of weapons, but if you're going down that path, there are a better choices for use with it (i.e. Particle Rifle), hence there's no point in carrying them at all. Comparing IEA just means you're comparing powers, not weapons, as not every class has it and the classes that do are better off using something else.

There is no discipline, only repeatitive more or less constant application of force to mouse. I think that muzzle climb is design oversight from console controls - if on gamepads elevation/declination is controlled via one of those little joysticks, that would explain that, since joystick is not actually moving anywhere, and with mouse you have to move it constantly to compensate muzzle climb. Moreso Hurricane, of course, if fired in full-auto. Bursts somewhat slightly negates than, but if you rely on burst - why not grab Hornet instead?

Thats the point I was making originally - if you're at short enough range to fire and hit on full-auto with the Hurricane, then its a hell of short range weapon in comparison to the other SMGs. If you're far enough away to be bursting it then sure, that's where the Hornet pulls ahead. To be honest the Hornet pulls ahead in most situations once you master the refire delay - I've been a Hornet fan ever since Athenau did that video series.

Well, now I'm not sure what you point is now. Probably we talking about same thing only using different words. Because I also talking about game mechanic, but with logic. Even if we drop weapons cross-classes, i.e. will compare sniper rifles to sniper rifles, some weight-to-performance ratios (again, with pinch of logic) are barely meaningful.

Its nothing complicated - I was just pointing out that making a middling weapon that heavy basically meant it wasn't suited to anything, I wasn't making any commentary on how much effect weight should have on recoil.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 15 mai 2012 - 06:33 .

[incinerator950]

AR: Collector Rifle/Chakram Launcher/Mattock
HP: Talon
SN: Crusader/Disciple
SR: Black Widow/Indra
SMG: Hornet/GPSMG

Modifié par incinerator950, 23 mai 2012 - 09:56 .

[Mysten]

Pistol: Phalanx.
SMG: Locust.
Assault Rifle: Revenant!*
Sniper Rifle: Raptor.
Shotgun: Eviscerator.

* How to adapt Revvin' Up by Crush 40 for use in Mass Effect 3:
- Replace all instances of "Revvin' Up!" with "Revenant!"
- ???
- Profit!

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

I think we've misunderstood each other - I was agreeing that the Hornet is likely to be a superior SMG due to its substantial stopping power and fast fire rate. I thought you were saying the Hurricane was the least capable SMG, ergo inferior to things like Shurikens and Locusts.... that was the part I was questioning.

Damn that language barrier!
Well, anyway, my point is same - ammo-wise (and situation wise as well, of course), Shuriken, Tempest and Locust (not to mention Hornet) could outperform Hurricane for several reasons and on several occasions (since ammo powers are only real damage dealers for Soldier).
I can't load images so far, but if we compare accuracy at, say, 15 metres (that's pretty close), we'll see that out of cover, with zoomed fire Hurricane is just a way too innacurate. Given 1 shot=2 rounds "feature", we'll have it mag size equal to Locust and total ammo supply just halved. Yes, Hurricane is much more powerful, even without ammo powers, but that accuracy and double-firing are not speaking in his favour. Basically that means Hurricane is almost point-blank weapon. And that could be dangerous against some targets.

So with decent ammo (not necessary IEA, but generally from IA, AP, WA group - DA/CA are too weak) other guns have some chances. If you insist on "no ammo", then I still will be undecided - for me SMG is primarily shield-stripper, I prefer do that on distance, and this definitely removes Hurricane out of equation. Hornet is second one on way out - shooting it out of cover requires spending too much time on compensating muzzle climb, otherwise we just wasting third round. All that consume time and attention from careful rapid-fire trick on Hornet.
Of course maybe my problem with compensating Hurricane and Hornet muzzle climb lies in fact that I'm lefty, but because I was unable to find decent mouse for southpaws, I have to use right-handed mouse, don't know.
Anyway, Hornet is another candidate on way out. Without ammo powers Shuriken propably will be third - too long delay between bursts. So that leaves Tempest and Locust. Tempest has second worst spread, but unlike Hurricane, Tempest's group is pretty "compact", not just "all the way over there" and I'd say 60-80% of rounds lands into group equal to Shuriken's group size, so it's quite accurate.
Dilemma!

JaegerBane wrote...

As for the Raider.... well, really, if you're not bothered about weight, then I can see where you're going there. I'm not sure I understand the logic behind ignoring weight (considering the huge effect it has gameplay). Even then, I don't see what you're gaining from it when you've already got things like the hornet.

Weight has zero effect on gameplay, even when your Shepard carries Widow/Black Widow/Javelin plus Revenant/Falcon/Saber, along with Talon or Arc Pistol, with Crusader or Claymore and Hurricane (IIRC heaviest) - he still will move as fast as if he carried just Predator. Weight it affects only cooldown period and since I rarely use active abilities, I can live with long recharge rate.

Regarding SMG vs Shotgun. I admit, Hurricane/Hornet even without ammo power could deliver some damage, But - they do that over time. Shotguns do that in very short time period. Yes, basically you have to reload them after every 1-2-3-4-5 shots, but at least damage dealt is decent and sort of "instant". Simply put, with SMG you exposed longer.
If course, against melee-based opponents that's not really an issue, but those melee-opponents often have some shooting escorts and environment not always allows you to outmaneuver them, staying out of their fire, if memory serves.

JaegerBane wrote...

I think the basic issue is that IEA obscures the weapon performance, due to its own power. Sure, it has major effects on a number of weapons, but if you're going down that path, there are a better choices for use with it (i.e. Particle Rifle), hence there's no point in carrying them at all. Comparing IEA just means you're comparing powers, not weapons, as not every class has it and the classes that do are better off using something else.

Well, generally I agree, but without ammo powers I cannot see why you like Scimitar so much - against big game it's barely effective, IIRC it took about 16 rounds to chip one bar of armour on Banshee.
But I digress. Particle rifle is fastest, but requires some "warm up" (thus exposure to enemy fire) and, should you discharge it totally, 5 seconds without pressing spacebar, otherwise recharge/reload will be cancelled. If course, you could and should stop firing before you deplete charge, but that could happen. All other weapons could be reloaded in 2-4 seconds (and that could be almost halved), so you can keep moving and moving fast and in line with game rules, since they decided to give us "awesome" button. With PR that trick won't work. And that thing will consume all thermal clips lying around, regardless of own charge. Yes,, most of clips "on ground" will respawn, but still, this is not most welcomed feature of PR. Plus, there is something personal -  I just don't like it. Not because I don't like wtfpwnage or because ray sucks, no, just because it doesn't suits my way of playing. It's not bad, just not mine.

JaegerBane wrote...

Thats the point I was making originally - if you're at short enough range to fire and hit on full-auto with the Hurricane, then its a hell of short range weapon in comparison to the other SMGs. If you're far enough away to be bursting it then sure, that's where the Hornet pulls ahead. To be honest the Hornet pulls ahead in most situations once you master the refire delay - I've been a Hornet fan ever since Athenau did that video series.

I haven't seen videos and generally avoid them, since I prefer to test things my way. It's not best, not one and only - just mine.
But I tend to agree - for damage dealing, Hornet probably would be my weapon of choise over Hurricane, since other SMGs are not that effective (if only Tempest, but I don't know, 30% efficiency from Hornet's?).

JaegerBane wrote...

Its nothing complicated - I was just pointing out that making a middling weapon that heavy basically meant it wasn't suited to anything, I wasn't making any commentary on how much effect weight should have on recoil.

But you use Black Widow, don't you? Why use it, when there is Valiant - even without ammo powers still capable to kill targets faster (while he has ammo, of course and those 30+3 is obviously biggest flaw of Valiant)?

[Abraham_uk]

Wow there is a lot of analysis of guns here.

Good work guys.

[rehlstadt]

Not a sniper and don't use SMG's...yet. I try to cycle between weapons but loved the Saber, right now for rapid fire using the Pheaston. I like to try new weapons and classes and not get bored.

[dirtdiver32318]

I myself am an assult rifle person. Collector rifle one of my favourites but I think the m8 is my number one. I like to go retro.

[LD_Dragon]

I prefer the Valiant and Javelin for SR, the Geth Plasma SMG for SMG, the Phalanx and Arc Pistol for HP, the Geth Pulse Rifle and Vindicator for AR, and the Geth Plasma Shotgun for SG.

Geth weapons have never let me down.

Modifié par LD_Dragon, 17 mai 2012 - 04:10 .

[erc1971]

Mattock, Mattock, and the Mattock

Seriously - I find every other gun damn near unsuable.  I try and get to the school as quickly as possible so I can get my lovely Mattock, then I use it exclusively for the rest of the game regardless of what class I am playing.

Eric

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
Given 1 shot=2 rounds "feature", we'll have it mag size equal to Locust and total ammo supply just halved. Yes, Hurricane is much more powerful, even without ammo powers, but that accuracy and double-firing are not speaking in his favour.

So with decent ammo (not necessary IEA, but generally from IA, AP, WA group - DA/CA are too weak) other guns have some chances. If you insist on "no ammo", then I still will be undecided - for me SMG is primarily shield-stripper, I prefer do that on distance, and this definitely removes Hurricane out of equation. Hornet is second one on way out - shooting it out of cover requires spending too much time on compensating muzzle climb, otherwise we just wasting third round. All that consume time and attention from careful rapid-fire trick on Hornet.
Of course maybe my problem with compensating Hurricane and Hornet muzzle climb lies in fact that I'm lefty, but because I was unable to find decent mouse for southpaws, I have to use right-handed mouse, don't know.

I think this was the issue I was bringing up previously when I mentioned theorycrafting.... there's a lot of assumptions being made here that don't necessarily hold beyond your own preferences. The reason I don't think ammo expenditure really means that much in SMGs is that they recover ammo at a very high rate and they have access to several mods that substantially boost their ammo capacity, including one that basically ignores shots from the clip. It is a concern, yes, but hardly something that has much effect in comparison to getting hammered by enemy damage reduction due to low damage shots.

The issue with the Hurricane's recoil is probably a personal thing for me... I've used it for so long that I'm used to it and hence I really don't have any issue nailing targets, and the fundamental nature of its high per-shot power/high recoil ratio means that any targets that it needs to keep up full auto are typically large enough for the scatter to not matter. The reason the Hornet nudges it at short range is that it's inital accuracy is pretty good, but even so, neither weapon is genuinely effective at further than short range. The Hornet's only real downside is that its refire delay can end up hampering its DPS if it isn't handled perfectly, and at the kind of ranges I use an SMG, I really don't want to be messing about with stuff like that.

Weight has zero effect on gameplay, even when your Shepard carries Widow/Black Widow/Javelin plus Revenant/Falcon/Saber, along with Talon or Arc Pistol, with Crusader or Claymore and Hurricane (IIRC heaviest) - he still will move as fast as if he carried just Predator. Weight it affects only cooldown period and since I rarely use active abilities, I can live with long recharge rate.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, here. ME3 has a serious bias towards powers over weapons so faster power recharge is almost always a boon.

But you use Black Widow, don't you? Why use it, when there is Valiant - even without ammo powers still capable to kill targets faster (while he has ammo, of course and those 30+3 is obviously biggest flaw of Valiant)?

Well, I do use it from time to time. The Valiant tends to stay as my go-to sniper rifle for the very reasons you describe. The point is that the Crusader's performance is pretty low end, as weapons go... its not really in the same league as guns like the Black Widow or the Claymore but possesses just as much weight, so its really not a good bargain. That, and the simple fact that its role is more less equivalent to the Paladin, which basically beats it on every stat.