332 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaelef]

KingZayd wrote...

Making Shepard JUST THAT STRONG, makes Saren and TIM look so weak in comparison.

Yeah, I can see the appeal of "Shepard's so tough, he was the only one able to shake indoctrination".  That doesn't address the possibility that everything we think we have done as Shepard may now have been a hallucination.  I think the negatives far outweigh the positives there.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Khaydarin135 wrote...

The problem is not with IT. Its just the ending and from any point of view.

From IT point of view : then we don't really know what happens in the end.
-Are we still at war with the reaper?
-Who wins?

From Literal point of view: Too many inconsistency
-Why are my team member in the normandy?
-How can shepard survive a fall from the citadel if he chose destroy?

The ending is either not finished or contains inconsistency... Choose your flavor.

Personally, yes, and unnervingly so.
That's still up in the air.

This is why there should have been a PROPER Epilogue, to state what happens to everything/everyone, after shooting the tube.

[DJBare]

KingZayd wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Khaydarin135 wrote...

The problem is not with IT. Its just the ending and from any point of view.

From IT point of view : then we don't really know what happens in the end.
-Are we still at war with the reaper?
-Who wins?

No nobody has won anything, the battle is still on.

From Literal point of view: Too many inconsistency
-Why are my team member in the normandy?
-How can shepard survive a fall from the citadel if he chose destroy?

The ending is either not finished or contains inconsistency... Choose your flavor.

When taking IT into account, nothing of what you as the player witnesses after being by hit Harbinger laser is real, that includes the destruction of the relays and the normandy doing a runner and the the world it lands on, all of it is hallucination from Shepard point of view, all of it.

Apart from the breath. (which i believe would happen in the other endings too)

Yes, if IT is to be accepted, then Shepard never left earth, Shepard is under a pile of rubble hallucinating everything and the reapers are using this to their advantage in order to indoctrinate Shepard, the destroy option has nothing to do with destroying the reapers, it has everything to do with Shepard resolve to fight the indoctrination attempt and wake up.

[MetioricTest]

The other big problem is Buzz Aldrin,

If it's all indoctrination why did the Reapers BOTHER to show him a bizarre side-show of all his friends running away and "surviving" on a barren planet and then Buzz Aldrin talking about how great you are.

And this happens even after Shep's "breath"

[Kaelef]

MetioricTest wrote...

Well he does spend like 2 days with Object Rho and then go around helping Ceberus for ages I guess.

Maybe I'll make a whole video on my new EIT (Early Indoctrination Theory) sometime...  I'll definitely do it if BW makes IT canon!!

AND NONE OF YOU IT-SUPPORTERS BETTER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Modifié par Kaelef, 12 mai 2012 - 11:59 .

[Agugaboo]

KingZayd wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

elecmanexe001 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

It's not that I don't understand the reasoning and logic behind IT.  I get it.  Within the ME universe, it totally makes sense and, if anything, it would be really unlikely if Shepard weren't indoctronicated after all his exposure to the bad guys.

The thing is that, out here in the real world, IT would make for an incredibly bad and unsatisfying story. I think that's the biggest problem most of the other "anti-IT" people have with it, also, but I could be wrong.  Regardless, I can't think of a way of taking the ending ME3 gave us, turning that into "Shep was indoctrinated", and somehow ending up with a good ending out of that.

If someone has an example of how this could be done, I'd be interested in seeing it.  Considering what I've seen so far, I'd be willing to bet that I'll find the given example(s) really unsatisfying.  But who knows.  Anything's possible.

All I can really ask is, have you enjoyed Bioware's story of Mass Effect up to this point with perhaps minor descrepancies here and there? I would imagine they could pull it off quite. The best explanation to it being a hallucination at least in part is that what you see is you versus your own consiousness, your choosing not to give into TIM as he has hounded you with the idea of control for so long, you are reinforced in your beliefs through Anderson, and so on. Alternatively only pieces of what happened could be illusions... thing of alternate reality games, overlaying over the world. There are a variety of ways they can go about using the idea we can only hope it turns out to be a better option then we have now.

Look, this is all opinion...

I feel that making our character, Shepard, susceptible to indoctrination only brings the entire Mass Effect experience into question.  Up until now, Shepard has basically been immune to indoctrination.  We accept that as one of the little "holes" in the ME universe, just as we accept that it's possible to travel much faster than light, and that it's possible for a single person to foil the plans of the all-powerful reapers on multiple occassions - it makes the story possible and fun.

But IT would take that away.  IT would tell us that even the powerful Shepard can be controlled through indoctrination to the point where he can't tell the difference between reality and fiction.  Once we lose that bit of Shepard "specialness", then all bets are off.  How do we know Shepard was in full control of his mental faculties at any point since first getting up-close-and-personal with Saren and Sovereign?  Even Matriarch Benezia fell victim to their influence, and she's a member of one of the most intelligent, powerful groups in the galaxy!

Now, there's no proof Shepard was "under the influence" that early on, but where it's unthinkable without IT, post-IT it becomes a real possibility.  People can (and probably will) start finding evidence that he was being controlled that early on, just as people have found evidence to support IT in the ME3 ending.

Can you see why some of us would much rather a different solution to the ME3 ending mess was found?  One that doesn't involve Shepard losing control of his mind?

I can see what you're thinking, but i feel the opposite really. I feel that Saren (1.0, pre-indoctrination) was supposed to be every bit as formidable as Shepard was. I feel TIM is meant to be remarkably strong willed. I don't like the idea of Shepard being just naturally immune to indoctrination. I think he should end up in the same struggle. And either fail like the rest (and then we can see if Shepard is willing to make that ultimate sacrifice, suicide interrupt) or fight it, even just to buy him time to complete the damn mission.

Making Shepard JUST THAT STRONG, makes Saren and TIM look so weak in comparison.

And here's one very long speculation that I thought of that I haven't heard of;

-so you are knocked out in london in the indoctrination attempt coma.
-but your squadmates make it to the beam
-they can't go back for you but can only move forward
-if your EMS are high enough, they are able to position/activate the crucible without you
-what does the crucible do? (the question of all questions):
it interrupts the indoctrination signal and makes it possible for anyone to escape it of their own free will as long as it isn't destroyed by the reapers.
-shepard and if you did loyalty missions, etc. your squadmates ALSO escape indoctrination.
-%of reaper forces are undoctrinated and allowed to die themselves with high enough ems (strength of fleet defending the crucible against the reapers)
-ultimate ending
-low ems either you die from indoctrination because your squadies failed, or it lasted long enough to save you but not them, epic gut wrenching terribad squadmate endboss battle ensues.

[KevShep]

ohupthis wrote...

Khaydarin135 wrote...

The problem is not with IT. Its just the ending and from any point of view.

From IT point of view : then we don't really know what happens in the end.
-Are we still at war with the reaper?
-Who wins?

From Literal point of view: Too many inconsistency
-Why are my team member in the normandy?
-How can shepard survive a fall from the citadel if he chose destroy?

The ending is either not finished or contains inconsistency... Choose your flavor.

Personally, yes, and unnervingly so.
That's still up in the air.

This is why there should have been a PROPER Epilogue, to state what happens to everything/everyone, after shooting the tube.

No because that would spell out indoctrination! Its more meaningfull if we discover it ourselves rather then it just telling us...hell they mite as well not have even indoctrinated us if they were going to just tell us anyway. Thats why we have "speculations"! 

[7he Island Head]

Kaelef wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

Well he does spend like 2 days with Object Rho and then go around helping Ceberus for ages I guess.

Maybe I'll make a whole video on my new EIT (Early Indoctrination Theory) sometime...  I'll definitely do it if BW makes IT canon!!

If BW makes it canon then they will have to explain IT enough for people to understand it, so then you won't have to make a video.

This thread needs more pyramids 

[Bill Casey]

Renegade Shepard is only slightly more receptive to the Control option...
They are both pretty much against it and pro Destroying the Reapers...

Neither one particularly fits...

Also,

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 mai 2012 - 12:00 .

[KingZayd]

Kaelef wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Making Shepard JUST THAT STRONG, makes Saren and TIM look so weak in comparison.

Yeah, I can see the appeal of "Shepard's so tough, he was the only one able to shake indoctrination".  That doesn't address the possibility that everything we think we have done as Shepard may now have been a hallucination.  I think the negatives far outweigh the positives there.

Only from the point of being knocked out by a huge laser.

And my point was, the appeal isn't the "Oh Shepard's so tough" aspect. It was, "He's still human, he's not immune to this stuff, and it's one of the reapers' most powerful weapons" and "Saren and TIM aren't as weak as we might assume"

[DJBare]

With low EMS London gets destroyed(in the hallucination), if Shepard is in the rubble severely injured in London, then s/he dies from his/her injuries because of lack of resolve, the lack of will to fight to survive.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Because everything throughout the 3 games has always been about Stopping/killing/destroying the Reapers, if one is to accept control/synth, then you've simply given in to the Reapers, and are no longer a person with an actual body.

This was explained by star-twit, "control"=you will lose everything you have, "synth"=being absorbed into the collective.[/quote]

You're still alive though, even if you're not "yourself"

[/quote]


No, plain and simple, physically absorbed into the collective, is being liquified and poured into their 'gastank'.

As for control, huh funny, electrocution has a funny way about destroying nerve routes. it's rather horrifying to be honest.

Once you've mastered 220V you'll understand.

[7he Island Head]

KevShep wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

Khaydarin135 wrote...

The problem is not with IT. Its just the ending and from any point of view.

From IT point of view : then we don't really know what happens in the end.
-Are we still at war with the reaper?
-Who wins?

From Literal point of view: Too many inconsistency
-Why are my team member in the normandy?
-How can shepard survive a fall from the citadel if he chose destroy?

The ending is either not finished or contains inconsistency... Choose your flavor.

Personally, yes, and unnervingly so.
That's still up in the air.

This is why there should have been a PROPER Epilogue, to state what happens to everything/everyone, after shooting the tube.

No because that would spell out indoctrination! Its more meaningfull if we discover it ourselves rather then it just telling us...hell they mite as well not have even indoctrinated us if they were going to just tell us anyway. Thats why we have "speculations"! 

I hope that is sarcasm.... But I can't tell

[Kaelef]

7he Island Head wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

Well he does spend like 2 days with Object Rho and then go around helping Ceberus for ages I guess.

Maybe I'll make a whole video on my new EIT (Early Indoctrination Theory) sometime...  I'll definitely do it if BW makes IT canon!!

If BW makes it canon then they will have to explain IT enough for people to understand it, so then you won't have to make a video.

This thread needs more pyramids 

Well, only if BW makes IT canon - I think it's safe to say they won't make EIT canon, hence the need for a video...

[KevShep]

MetioricTest wrote...

The other big problem is Buzz Aldrin,

If it's all indoctrination why did the Reapers BOTHER to show him a bizarre side-show of all his friends running away and "surviving" on a barren planet and then Buzz Aldrin talking about how great you are.

And this happens even after Shep's "breath"

The reapers do not control ALL aspects of your mind. Remember that they can only do it through suggestions. This means that the end (the one where jokers runing away) is shepards sub-conscious playing out what the reapers have lead him to believe, even after the FAILED attempt!

[7he Island Head]

Kaelef wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

Well he does spend like 2 days with Object Rho and then go around helping Ceberus for ages I guess.

Maybe I'll make a whole video on my new EIT (Early Indoctrination Theory) sometime...  I'll definitely do it if BW makes IT canon!!

If BW makes it canon then they will have to explain IT enough for people to understand it, so then you won't have to make a video.

This thread needs more pyramids 

Well, only if BW makes IT canon - I think it's safe to say they won't make EIT canon, hence the need for a video...

Wut is EIT

[KingZayd]

Kaelef wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

Well he does spend like 2 days with Object Rho and then go around helping Ceberus for ages I guess.

Maybe I'll make a whole video on my new EIT (Early Indoctrination Theory) sometime...  I'll definitely do it if BW makes IT canon!!

AND NONE OF YOU IT-SUPPORTERS BETTER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING IMPOSSIBLE!!!

When would you make it start?

[KevShep]

7he Island Head wrote...

KevShep wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

Khaydarin135 wrote...

The problem is not with IT. Its just the ending and from any point of view.

From IT point of view : then we don't really know what happens in the end.
-Are we still at war with the reaper?
-Who wins?

From Literal point of view: Too many inconsistency
-Why are my team member in the normandy?
-How can shepard survive a fall from the citadel if he chose destroy?

The ending is either not finished or contains inconsistency... Choose your flavor.

Personally, yes, and unnervingly so.
That's still up in the air.

This is why there should have been a PROPER Epilogue, to state what happens to everything/everyone, after shooting the tube.

No because that would spell out indoctrination! Its more meaningfull if we discover it ourselves rather then it just telling us...hell they mite as well not have even indoctrinated us if they were going to just tell us anyway. Thats why we have "speculations"! 

I hope that is sarcasm.... But I can't tell

Where is the sarcasm?

[Kaelef]

7he Island Head wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

Well he does spend like 2 days with Object Rho and then go around helping Ceberus for ages I guess.

Maybe I'll make a whole video on my new EIT (Early Indoctrination Theory) sometime...  I'll definitely do it if BW makes IT canon!!

If BW makes it canon then they will have to explain IT enough for people to understand it, so then you won't have to make a video.

This thread needs more pyramids 

Well, only if BW makes IT canon - I think it's safe to say they won't make EIT canon, hence the need for a video...

Wut is EIT

EARLY INDOCTRINATION THEORY!!

Basically, everything since we met Sovereign back in ME1 has been a hallucination!!!  DON'T BE A DENIER!!!

KingZayd wrote...

When would you make it start?

Probably when Shep first has his little chat with Sovereign.  I'll have to see if there's a reasonably believable earlier spot, though...

Modifié par Kaelef, 13 mai 2012 - 12:08 .

[Raiil]

ohupthis wrote...

Valentia X wrote...


I was speaking to her, personally. I try to honestly debate with ITers, not pick fights with them. That's not conducive to what I want, which is a friendly debate and new information.

I have no qualms with the idea of IT being a plausible theory. My issue is that IT isn't even really a theory, it's a set of hypotheses wherein most have not yet been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and until those hypotheses are reasonably proven, it can't be a theory. (This is working off of the scientific method, not literary critique, so if that's what you were referring to, my apologies). There is circumstantial evidence in game that points to indoctrination having been considered in game (as noted by the Final Hours app), which in turn lends credence to IT as a whole. But the compulsion of your 'vocal minority' to be abusive to non-ITers such as myself, who want debate and not insults, is becoming a big problem on the forums, and the 'nice' ITers are doing nothing to reign it in.

Hence the term "theory", theories are formed with some evidence to confirm it.

And this is where you would be incorrect. Theories are formed after several independant but loosely connected hypotheses are confirmed.

For example, in order to 'prove' that the scene post-Destroy where Shepard draws a breath, the following must be confirmed:

1. That is Shepard's armour.
2. Shepard appears to be lying in concrete or concrete-like material.
3. Shepard is in London.
4. Shepard is not on the Citadel. This is because the Citadel has no concrete or concrete-like materials.

And breaking it down:

1. That is Shepard's armour -> can be conclusively proven from the screenshot name. We'll give it a check.
2. Shepard appears to be lying in a concrete or concrete-like material. We have visual confirmation. Check.
3. Shepard is in London. This one relies directly on the fourth branch of the hypothesis being correct, but if this is the case, since the Citadel was above London, we can reasonably assume he's in London and not in, say, Seoul.
4. Shepard is not on the Citadel. This is because the Citadel has no concrete or concrete-like material. This is the flaw in the theory; we do not see the vast majority of the Citadel in the game. We are privy, throughout the game, into the locking docks, the refugee area, the Presidum, some of the Warehouses, and the shopping areas. We do not know what the inner parts of the Citadel looks like. Stating conclusively that there is no concrete material in the Citadel would be akin to me stating that there is no concrete in my house because I can't see any. There is; it's just covered by walls and flooring.

We can additionally point to scenes likehttp://images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/a/a5/Citadel_Garrus_Loyalty_Fight_2.png] this one,[/url] during Garrus's loyalty mission, which shows walls and what appears to be concrete-like cylinders. Another shot during the loyalty mission also seems to show concrete floorshttp://img.bhs4.com/06/b/06bda4e851628a8aa661a4258364cd7e656d643e_large.jpg]here[/url].

Therefore, while the hypothesis that Shepard is in London during that shot may not be incorrect, it cannot be factually proven, either. Therefore, it can not move past the hypothesis state. 

ETA: Links don't seem to be working properly, so:

 Okay, my edits aren't going through for some reason, so here are the links I was talking about in my example:

ETA What the hell, BSN, why aren't you letting me link? Gah.

images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/a/a5/Citadel_Garrus_Loyalty_Fight_2.png

img.bhs4.com/06/b/06bda4e851628a8aa661a4258364cd7e656d643e_large.jpg

Modifié par Valentia X, 13 mai 2012 - 12:15 .

[KingZayd]

ohupthis wrote...




Because everything throughout the 3 games has always been about Stopping/killing/destroying the Reapers, if one is to accept control/synth, then you've simply given in to the Reapers, and are no longer a person with an actual body.

This was explained by star-twit, "control"=you will lose everything you have, "synth"=being absorbed into the collective.

You're still alive though, even if you're not "yourself"

No, plain and simple, physically absorbed into the collective, is being liquified and poured into their 'gastank'.

As for control, huh funny, electrocution has a funny way about destroying nerve routes. it's rather horrifying to be honest.

Once you've mastered 220V you'll understand.

Erm, you do understand that under IT none of that really happened? This is not The Matrix. Your mind does not make it real. Resisting indoctrination is not the same as surviving.

Modifié par KingZayd, 13 mai 2012 - 12:09 .

[Nauks]

Kaelef wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Making Shepard JUST THAT STRONG, makes Saren and TIM look so weak in comparison.

Yeah, I can see the appeal of "Shepard's so tough, he was the only one able to shake indoctrination".  That doesn't address the possibility that everything we think we have done as Shepard may now have been a hallucination.  I think the negatives far outweigh the positives there.

To be fair (and no religious digs this time I promise ) we don't experience anything really resembling the ending outside of dreams until Harbinger beams us. (say what you will about the end, parts of it have a very dreamy quality to them no?).

I'd say Shepard is mostly experiencing the "suggestive thoughts" part of indoctrination throughout ME3, the guilt-tripping dreams with sinister whispers etc, worming their way into his head to break him down until he is susceptible to actual induced hallucination of that scale. (also the close proximity of Harbinger at the end means all bets are off really).

Modifié par Nauks, 13 mai 2012 - 12:09 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

DJBare wrote...

Khaydarin135 wrote...

The problem is not with IT. Its just the ending and from any point of view.

From IT point of view : then we don't really know what happens in the end.
-Are we still at war with the reaper?
-Who wins?

No nobody has won anything, the battle is still on.

From Literal point of view: Too many inconsistency
-Why are my team member in the normandy?
-How can shepard survive a fall from the citadel if he chose destroy?

The ending is either not finished or contains inconsistency... Choose your flavor.

When taking IT into account, nothing of what you as the player witnesses after being by hit Harbinger laser is real, that includes the destruction of the relays and the normandy doing a runner and the the world it lands on, all of it is hallucination from Shepard point of view, all of it.

yes, and so difficult for some to understand, but we try nonetheless.

Listen, for the folks who adhere to this AS nonsense, that's fine, but to those of who do enjoy the theory, this would allow us more game time, and understandably, be against what Bioware has stated,"there is no more game", it does however still allow for more, in the 'knoggin'.  So to speak....

[MetioricTest]

I feel like people intentionally ignore Stargazer in IT dicussions...

[7he Island Head]

[quote]KevShep wrote...

[quote]7he Island Head wrote...

[quote]KevShep wrote...

[quote]ohupthis wrote...

[quote]Khaydarin135 wrote...

The problem is not with IT. Its just the ending and from any point of view.

From IT point of view : then we don't really know what happens in the end.
-Are we still at war with the reaper?
-Who wins?

From Literal point of view: Too many inconsistency
-Why are my team member in the normandy?
-How can shepard survive a fall from the citadel if he chose destroy?

The ending is either not finished or contains inconsistency... Choose your flavor.[/quote]

Personally, yes, and unnervingly so.
That's still up in the air.

This is why there should have been a PROPER Epilogue, to state what happens to everything/everyone, after shooting the tube. [/quote]

No because that would spell out indoctrination! Its more meaningfull if we discover it ourselves rather then it just telling us...hell they mite as well not have even indoctrinated us if they were going to just tell us anyway. Thats why we have "speculations"! [/quote]
I hope that is sarcasm.... But I can't tell

[/quote]


Where is the sarcasm?[/quote]
All of it.

[quote]Kaelef wrote...

[quote]7he Island Head wrote...

[quote]Kaelef wrote...

[quote]7he Island Head wrote...

[quote]Kaelef wrote...

[quote]MetioricTest wrote...

Well he does spend like 2 days with Object Rho and then go around helping Ceberus for ages I guess.

[/quote]
Maybe I'll make a whole video on my new EIT (Early Indoctrination Theory) sometime...  I'll definitely do it if BW makes IT canon!!

[/quote]
If BW makes it canon then they will have to explain IT enough for people to understand it, so then you won't have to make a video.

This thread needs more pyramids [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

[/quote]

Well, only if BW makes IT canon - I think it's safe to say they won't make EIT canon, hence the need for a video...

[/quote]
Wut is EIT

[/quote]

EARLY INDOCTRINATION THEORY!!

Basically, everything since we met Sovereign back in ME1 has been a hallucination!!!  DON'T BE A DENIER!!!



[quote]KingZayd wrote...

When would you make it start?
[/quote]

Probably when Shep first has his little chat with Sovereign.  I'll have to see if there's a reasonably believable earlier spot, though...

[/quote]
I would go further back to the Beacon! The Collectors=Protheans  now, so it was probably an indoctrination device