332 réponses à ce sujet

[7he Island Head]

balance5050 wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

I find it easier to believe that they messed up rather in the IT.... 

The problem with that is Bioware has played with unrealities much more frequently than they "messed up" probability points to IT.

Do you have examples. I remeber the endings of Jade Empire, Kotor, ME1 and ME2 being like this....

[Nauks]

Kaelef wrote...

ohupthis wrote...


Then by all means DEFEND yourself, instead of just blatantly denying IT, could be POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't have to agree with us, just accept the fact this is a possibility, plain AND simple.

The point is that you can't disprove IT.  Any reasonable argument against it can be worked around by its adherents.  This is yet another religion-like characteristic it has.

ANYTHING is possible in a work of ficition.  The Catalyst could be a re-incarnation of the Stay Puft™ Marshmallow man.  The fact that it's possible doesn't make it any more compelling or desireable.

You can however produce compelling evidence supporting the I.T. using what we know about the lore and ME3, without taking giant imaginary leaps.

Speaking of religion-like charactertics, Pro-ITers usually say (yes we may be wrong) anti-ITers usually say (no we can't be wrong) see where I'm going with this?

Modifié par Nauks, 12 mai 2012 - 11:07 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

jijeebo wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I dislike IT because replacing poor writing with even more poor writing is not what EC should do. IT will ruin what little good there is in the current ending by completely removing any emotional meaning to the showdown with TIM and the goodbye with Anderson by reducing it "It was all a dream".

If it were as simple as "it was all a dream" sure, however what happens in the end sequence serves a very deliberate purpose, we're supposed to feel emotional and/or triumphant w/e, it's the whole point.

Execpt by saying that it never happend and was stuff inside his head. All the power of those scenes are gone since what was important in them is nullified. TIM commiting suicide after being shown the errors of his ways and gaining redemption is turned meaningless because it never happend. Anderson's last words about how proud he is of Shepard is in the end completing meaningless because it never happended.

I never thought about that...

Even though I wasnt pro-IT before... I could never get behind an ending that invalidates the beauty that was the final moments between Shepard and Anderson by turning it into a dream.


That was one of my favourite moments in ME3.

Hell. It even goes for the 3 last flashbacks Shepard has in a way.

[KingZayd]

7he Island Head wrote...

My theory is better than IT anyways
http://social.biowar...ndex/10589333/1

Maybe both are true?

But I don't think the main reaper purpose it to "protect" organic life. Sure they want it to exist, but only so they can make babies.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

EsterCloat wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

It's a religious argument not because it has anything to do with deities or religions, but because it forms around a body of "knowledge" which is neither provable nor disprovable.  Calling something a "religious argument" when it takes on this characteristic is a fairly common thing to do.

And the more you use the term "idiot", the more you start sounding like one.

You mean the anti-IT people are acting like Creationists, while the pro-IT people are pesky Evolution supporters with their silly "proof"? did I get the analogy right?

If evolution had the same quality "proof" as IT we'd all think the Earth was created 6000 years ago.

????

I'm a firm believer in evolution, and that the earth is @ 4.5 billion years young. give or take.

[jijeebo]

7he Island Head wrote...

ohupthis wrote...


To be perfectly honest, I too am of the belief Bioware messed up ROYALLY, but I have a spark of hope, with my UNreligion.

I find it easier to believe that they messed up rather in the IT.... 

It certainly requires less energy, and makes more sense to boot.

[balance5050]

jijeebo wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

ohupthis wrote...


To be perfectly honest, I too am of the belief Bioware messed up ROYALLY, but I have a spark of hope, with my UNreligion.

I find it easier to believe that they messed up rather in the IT.... 

It certainly requires less energy, and makes more sense to boot.

Yeah, but it's depressing and not as fun to talk about.

[7he Island Head]

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

ohupthis wrote...


To be perfectly honest, I too am of the belief Bioware messed up ROYALLY, but I have a spark of hope, with my UNreligion.

I find it easier to believe that they messed up rather in the IT.... 

It certainly requires less energy, and makes more sense to boot.

Yeah, but it's depressing and not as fun to talk about.

Not fun to talk about? Threads titled "Booo Bioware Sucks" are always fun before they get locked 

[Agugaboo]

Gorkan86 wrote...

elecmanexe001 wrote...

No where in IT does it suggest friends are indoctrinated.... and they spent far less time near Reapers then you did.

I mention IT specifically to make it clear that if Shepard can be indoctrinated, then his companions too. They have not been with him constantly, but in most encounters with the reaper tech they were present.

Now that would be an epic, horrible end to the series. Shepard has a boss battle with indoctrinated squadmates that he brought for the final mission.

In my case that would be Liara and Garrus...
Imagine fighting ME1 Saren husk and a Banshee at the same time, and knowing exactly who they are.

[Kaelef]

elecmanexe001 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Saying "it was only a dream" is an exaggeration meant to simplify a point, but I haven't seen or read anything that makes IT fundamentally anything more than that.  The "it was only a dream" trope is exactly the way a lot of people will interpret an IT ending if it does end up being what BW delivers in the EC.  Maybe I'm an "idiot" and "just don't get it" (are you guys intentionally trying to sound like reapers when you say that?) - but I'd love it if you pointed me at something that shows how IT ends up being anything more creative than that.

I am not trying to call anyone stupid here it just seems that some points of IT are missed by people. Indoctrination is supposed to cause a lot of the symptoms experienced within the end. Things like TIM could be akin to something of the devil on your shoulder sort of cartoon explanation to consious. You are fighting with yourself, all the things you have seen and heard as the Reapers attempt to manipulate you. It would be more then a dream, it would serve more importance then that and if done right would not devalue what happened. I hope that explains where some people are coming from with the idea better, but it will never convince everyone and it isn't meant to. I'm not 100% convinced myself but I prefer the ideas of IT to just accepting what happened.

It's not that I don't understand the reasoning and logic behind IT.  I get it.  Within the ME universe, it totally makes sense and, if anything, it would be really unlikely if Shepard weren't indoctronicated after all his exposure to the bad guys.

The thing is that, out here in the real world, IT would make for an incredibly bad and unsatisfying story. I think that's the biggest problem most of the other "anti-IT" people have with it, also, but I could be wrong.  Regardless, I can't think of a way of taking the ending ME3 gave us, turning that into "Shep was indoctrinated", and somehow ending up with a good ending out of that.

If someone has an example of how this could be done, I'd be interested in seeing it.  Considering what I've seen so far, I'd be willing to bet that I'll find the given example(s) really unsatisfying.  But who knows.  Anything's possible.

Modifié par Kaelef, 12 mai 2012 - 11:11 .

[KingZayd]

jijeebo wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

ohupthis wrote...


To be perfectly honest, I too am of the belief Bioware messed up ROYALLY, but I have a spark of hope, with my UNreligion.

I find it easier to believe that they messed up rather in the IT.... 

It certainly requires less energy, and makes more sense to boot.

And you could say that for any media you didn't like, and sometimes you would be right. It's not always true though.

[7he Island Head]

Agugaboo wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

elecmanexe001 wrote...

No where in IT does it suggest friends are indoctrinated.... and they spent far less time near Reapers then you did.

I mention IT specifically to make it clear that if Shepard can be indoctrinated, then his companions too. They have not been with him constantly, but in most encounters with the reaper tech they were present.

Now that would be an epic, horrible end to the series. Shepard has a boss battle with indoctrinated squadmates that he brought for the final mission.

In my case that would be Liara and Garrus...
Imagine fighting ME1 Saren husk and a Banshee at the same time, and knowing exactly who they are.

It would be like the end of X-men 3, a bitter sweet ending 

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Valentia X wrote...

ohupthis wrote...


Then by all means DEFEND yourself, instead of just blatantly denying IT, could be POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

/facepalm


I have said numerous times, in numerous threads, in conversations with you and other ITers, that while I find IT to be an interesting theory, it hasn't been able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any of it tenants, aside from the fact that Indoctrination exists in game. The proof of burden lies on those who propose the hypothesis, not those who have to be convinced.

And my main issue isn't that you believe in IT, but that you consistently, throughout several threads and many posts, call anyone who doesn't believe in IT derogatory names and are constantly using snide, rude, and borderline abusive language towards them. I don't care whether you believe in IT or not, that's not something that bothers me. Your attitude towards anyone who doesn't- which includes me- does.

Me personally?

if so, i might have to apologize, if not then

and we can civilly continue with this discussion.

[KingZayd]

Agugaboo wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

elecmanexe001 wrote...

No where in IT does it suggest friends are indoctrinated.... and they spent far less time near Reapers then you did.

I mention IT specifically to make it clear that if Shepard can be indoctrinated, then his companions too. They have not been with him constantly, but in most encounters with the reaper tech they were present.

Now that would be an epic, horrible end to the series. Shepard has a boss battle with indoctrinated squadmates that he brought for the final mission.

In my case that would be Liara and Garrus...
Imagine fighting ME1 Saren husk and a Banshee at the same time, and knowing exactly who they are.

Guess who Marauder Shields was? (lol jk, but THAT would be a way to give a bittersweet ending. Forcing you to kill your friends to save the galaxy)

[elecmanexe001]

Valentia X wrote...

I was speaking to her, personally. I try to honestly debate with ITers, not pick fights with them. That's not conducive to what I want, which is a friendly debate and new information.

I have no qualms with the idea of IT being a plausible theory. My issue is that IT isn't even really a theory, it's a set of hypotheses wherein most have not yet been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and until those hypotheses are reasonably proven, it can't be a theory. (This is working off of the scientific method, not literary critique, so if that's what you were referring to, my apologies). There is circumstantial evidence in game that points to indoctrination having been considered in game (as noted by the Final Hours app), which in turn lends credence to IT as a whole. But the compulsion of your 'vocal minority' to be abusive to non-ITers such as myself, who want debate and not insults, is becoming a big problem on the forums, and the 'nice' ITers are doing nothing to reign it in.

Any internet forum will have more hate then understanding, it is unavoidable and it is on both sides of the discussion. People against IT, against Bioware and what not are also casting many insults, there is no side that is clean only individuals.

As far as theory goes, I suppose I can agree that it is more hypothosis then theory, we can only truely tests its merits once the EC comes out. No one however wants to wait around and agree to disagree till then and continue to question the merits of IT. A lot of IT can easily be true but until Bioware gives the official word it can not be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is a lot of 'evidence'(for lack of a better term) that strongly hints at IT being correct though that is kinda hard to ignore and at least should not be shoved aside with a hand wave and simply saying no though.

[Kaelef]

ohupthis wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

It's a religious argument not because it has anything to do with deities or religions, but because it forms around a body of "knowledge" which is neither provable nor disprovable.  Calling something a "religious argument" when it takes on this characteristic is a fairly common thing to do.

And the more you use the term "idiot", the more you start sounding like one.

You mean the anti-IT people are acting like Creationists, while the pro-IT people are pesky Evolution supporters with their silly "proof"? did I get the analogy right?

If evolution had the same quality "proof" as IT we'd all think the Earth was created 6000 years ago.

????

I'm a firm believer in evolution, and that the earth is @ 4.5 billion years young. give or take.

His point was that Nauks equating pro-IT arguments with  those for evolution was seriously insulting to those of us who believe in evolution.

[Nauks]

KingZayd wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

My theory is better than IT anyways
http://social.biowar...ndex/10589333/1

Maybe both are true?

But I don't think the main reaper purpose it to "protect" organic life. Sure they want it to exist, but only so they can make babies.

Both are probably true, however the Crucible is a Reaper device/trap most likely.
The likelyhood of it laying undiscovered throughout numerous cycles is astronomically low, and it not getting sabotaged by indoctrinated agents during construction is slim at best, furthermore the Reapers not destroying it as it was about to dock with the citadel? no way.
(note: this last part only happens in Shepards Hallucination)

The Reapers wanted us to build it.

[vurtual3]

elecmanexe001 wrote...

vurtual3 wrote...

If the only way to end the cycle is to cooperate with the citadel starchild thingy and I presume that nothing in the diversity of the mass effect universe is changed by the dna thingy in synthesis (which I don't remotely understand but hey I'm an organic!) then yeah I can kind of think I've won. Not saying it really felt like it though. And now I think about it the catalyst appearing as the kid from earth doesn't make loads of sense without IT. I really hope ec makes this all clearer.....

Problems with Synthesis though is that throughout the game there have been mentions that diversity makes our cycle unique and stronger, synthesis takes that away. We have also prooven that the Geth can  be allies not enemies, why do we need to change our and their DNA to the same thing to make us allies when we already are?

With the destroy option, Shepard should die because of implants right? The Geth and tons of other people. Yet Shepard lives giving us hope that others have as well, that perhaps the catalyst was wrong about that choice and it goes a good ways to helping the idea of IT.

I guess I'm making a huge leap by choosing to presume that synthesis means that there will still be the same differences between organic species as prior ,and they'll behave fundamentally the same as before but with some new abilities(don't ask me what,but something like geth type networking where organics kind of have their computing abilities on the inside,not externally with machines. (I'm clearly not a scientist,but then again the endings aren't really science as we know it!). I'd guess sythnthetics get something out of it too,relating to emotion.

I agree that the catalyst strongly implied Shep couldn't survive but he can did and this does support IT in that it's choosing to lie. Explain this away with self-preservation and believing that the catalyst in sythnesis with shep (much smaller scale) is what takes that breath in sheps body at the end.

My problems with IT aren't really with the theory,I think it could work and be a better feeling end to ME3,but I just don't think they'll do it and so am looking for other explanations that would lead to a future set ME game where all 3 endings could be incorpatated but not be so different the game is unfeasible. I would genuinely love it if ec made IT canon and post ending pay content would follow,I just don't believe that's what they were doing and if it wasn't think there's 0% chance they'll do it now.....

[Agugaboo]

KingZayd wrote...

Agugaboo wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

elecmanexe001 wrote...

No where in IT does it suggest friends are indoctrinated.... and they spent far less time near Reapers then you did.

I mention IT specifically to make it clear that if Shepard can be indoctrinated, then his companions too. They have not been with him constantly, but in most encounters with the reaper tech they were present.

Now that would be an epic, horrible end to the series. Shepard has a boss battle with indoctrinated squadmates that he brought for the final mission.

In my case that would be Liara and Garrus...
Imagine fighting ME1 Saren husk and a Banshee at the same time, and knowing exactly who they are.

Guess who Marauder Shields was? (lol jk, but THAT would be a way to give a bittersweet ending. Forcing you to kill your friends to save the galaxy)

If this were the case I'd bring Javik and Kaidan. Oh wait, I've never bothered to save Kaidan in ME1.
[Takes cover from flames.]

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

ohupthis wrote...


To be perfectly honest, I too am of the belief Bioware messed up ROYALLY, but I have a spark of hope, with my UNreligion.

I find it easier to believe that they messed up rather in the IT.... 

It certainly requires less energy, and makes more sense to boot.

Yeah, but it's depressing and not as fun to talk about.

Talking about what they can add with their "expansion" and "clarification", and getting pumped about VAs being back in the recording studio is more fun than trying to figure out whether or not the end even happened.

... Plus I enjoy thinking of fun ways to exploit my reaper army.


And I find the notion that Bioware deliberately cut the ending out of their game more depressing than the notion that they screwed up and then screamed "art"

[Agugaboo]

Kaelef wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

It's a religious argument not because it has anything to do with deities or religions, but because it forms around a body of "knowledge" which is neither provable nor disprovable.  Calling something a "religious argument" when it takes on this characteristic is a fairly common thing to do.

And the more you use the term "idiot", the more you start sounding like one.

You mean the anti-IT people are acting like Creationists, while the pro-IT people are pesky Evolution supporters with their silly "proof"? did I get the analogy right?

If evolution had the same quality "proof" as IT we'd all think the Earth was created 6000 years ago.

????

I'm a firm believer in evolution, and that the earth is @ 4.5 billion years young. give or take.

His point was that Nauks equating pro-IT arguments with  those for evolution was seriously insulting to those of us who believe in evolution.

or dinosaurs,

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Kaelef wrote...

ohupthis wrote...


Then by all means DEFEND yourself, instead of just blatantly denying IT, could be POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't have to agree with us, just accept the fact this is a possibility, plain AND simple.

The point is that you can't disprove IT.  Any reasonable argument against it can be worked around by its adherents.  This is yet another religion-like characteristic it has.

ANYTHING is possible in a work of ficition.  The Catalyst could be a re-incarnation of the Stay Puft™ Marshmallow man.  The fact that it's possible doesn't make it any more compelling or desireable.

That would be hilarious, and a bit disturbing

[Kaelef]

jijeebo wrote...

Talking about what they can add with their "expansion" and "clarification", and getting pumped about VAs being back in the recording studio is more fun than trying to figure out whether or not the end even happened.

... Plus I enjoy thinking of fun ways to exploit my reaper army.


And I find the notion that Bioware deliberately cut the ending out of their game more depressing than the notion that they screwed up and then screamed "art"

This human gets it.

[eddieoctane]

Kaelef wrote...

No, the biggest problem with IT is that it's 215% speculation.

When theres 5 seconds of cut-scenes, followed by Joker looking at the CIC when the ship is about to crash, even taking the ending at face value is total speculation.

And OP, it doesn't have to be a "wrong" decision to opt for control. To implement IT properly, all options should result in Shep waking up. I have suggested that the choice at the cruicble affect an invisible "sanity" meter. Destruction makes not succumbing to indoctrination the easiest, and I personally favor synthesis making it the most difficult. Other decisions also affect the sanity meter, and after a direct confrontation with Harbinger, one of 3 things happens:
1. Shep feels the Reapers creepign into his mind, but spins around with the Carnifex-of-doom and blasts Harby's core 1 last time. The indoc whispers stop, he sets of the crucible properly, and limps into the sunset with LI.
2. Shep feels himself losing control. Unable to continue, he smiles, says goodbye to his squad, and ices himself. A crewmate sets of the Crucible.
3. Shep succumbs to indoctrination fully. He spins around, and shoots at the squad. Someone, most likely the VS shoots Shep. LI screams in grief and runs up to catch his falling body. If you romanced the VS, a random crew member sets of the crucible. If not, the VS sets it off him/herself.

If you don't want to scrap the conversation with Anderson, perhaps have Shep wake up next to his body on Earth. Anderson telling you that "you did good" actually happened, he was talking to an injured and seemingly delerious Shepard.

There are many ways to work "no wrong decisions" into IT. I agree that writing off 2 of the 3 options has killing Shep is rediculous, but I don't advocate doing so.

[elecmanexe001]

Kaelef wrote...

elecmanexe001 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Saying "it was only a dream" is an exaggeration meant to simplify a point, but I haven't seen or read anything that makes IT fundamentally anything more than that.  The "it was only a dream" trope is exactly the way a lot of people will interpret an IT ending if it does end up being what BW delivers in the EC.  Maybe I'm an "idiot" and "just don't get it" (are you guys intentionally trying to sound like reapers when you say that?) - but I'd love it if you pointed me at something that shows how IT ends up being anything more creative than that.

I am not trying to call anyone stupid here it just seems that some points of IT are missed by people. Indoctrination is supposed to cause a lot of the symptoms experienced within the end. Things like TIM could be akin to something of the devil on your shoulder sort of cartoon explanation to consious. You are fighting with yourself, all the things you have seen and heard as the Reapers attempt to manipulate you. It would be more then a dream, it would serve more importance then that and if done right would not devalue what happened. I hope that explains where some people are coming from with the idea better, but it will never convince everyone and it isn't meant to. I'm not 100% convinced myself but I prefer the ideas of IT to just accepting what happened.

It's not that I don't understand the reasoning and logic behind IT.  I get it.  Within the ME universe, it totally makes sense and, if anything, it would be really unlikely if Shepard weren't indoctronicated after all his exposure to the bad guys.

The thing is that, out here in the real world, IT would make for an incredibly bad and unsatisfying story. I think that's the biggest problem most of the other "anti-IT" people have with it, also, but I could be wrong.  Regardless, I can't think of a way of taking the ending ME3 gave us, turning that into "Shep was indoctrinated", and somehow ending up with a good ending out of that.

If someone has an example of how this could be done, I'd be interested in seeing it.  Considering what I've seen so far, I'd be willing to bet that I'll find the given example(s) really unsatisfying.  But who knows.  Anything's possible.

All I can really ask is, have you enjoyed Bioware's story of Mass Effect up to this point with perhaps minor descrepancies here and there? I would imagine they could pull it off quite. The best explanation to it being a hallucination at least in part is that what you see is you versus your own consiousness, your choosing not to give into TIM as he has hounded you with the idea of control for so long, you are reinforced in your beliefs through Anderson, and so on. Alternatively only pieces of what happened could be illusions... thing of alternate reality games, overlaying over the world. There are a variety of ways they can go about using the idea we can only hope it turns out to be a better option then we have now.