26 réponses à ce sujet

[lx_theo]

 The mod system in SWTOR is really good in that when you get moddable armor and equipment, you can upgrade it via the mods to use it for however long you want. If not the SWTOR system, then something that provides similar advantages would be liked a lot by me.

There are two major upsides to using this system...

1. It allows you to keep the armor you like the most throughout the entire game
Ever get that armor piece you really like the look of, then a few hours later in the game its too weak adn you're forced to move on to a new set, which is likely not as good looking as the one you had before? If you base upgrades of armor on mods, then the armor you like a lot can stay with you for most of the game. You get to keep that look for as long as you want. The choice also amplifies the Role-Playing aspect of the game.

2. It allows Bioware to focus on variety and quality, rather than evolution
Have you noticed how many armors in the games seem to try adn build up for the armor you find later in the game? It seems like a lot of the armor designs are focused around the build up to the best armors. If the game focused around evolution of armor quality via mods, then there wouldn't be a need to use the resources used for armor design on the evolution aspect to anywhere near as much of a degree (there should still be some, of course). With this, the design teams could focus on creating a high quality and high amount of variety among the armor designs.

What do you all think?

[MichaelStuart]

I like this ideal

[Sylvanpyxie]

Should Bioware use the SWTOR Mod system in DA3?

Yes.

That or create a modern system of Hordes of the Underdark's "Craft Armour". It allowed you to alter your armour's appearance at the cost of gold, if you have the correct skills to do so.

Given how ugly Bioware armours have gotten lately. They should include a system that either allows you to upgrade old armour, or change the appearance of new armour.

[Nerdage]

I like the idea of keeping an old item viable, but I'd prefer they overhaul the way enchantments work than use SWTOR's mods, make it easier to put whatever enchantment I want on whatever gear I want. Remove the arbitrary rune slots only on specific items, stop tying specific enchantments to recipes found out in the world, things like that.

Also, the idea of swapping out components like blade and hilt on a sword makes me think of this.

[Archer]

I like this idea.

It works well in SWTOR because frankly end game gear is so hideously designed no one wants to wear it.

Although didnt we have gear in DA2 that would level up as the player did? Would this not achieve the same result?

[Atakuma]

eveynameiwantisfekintaken wrote...

I like this idea.

It works well in SWTOR because frankly end game gear is so hideously designed no one wants to wear it.

Although didnt we have gear in DA2 that would level up as the player did? Would this not achieve the same result?

Only the weapons did that and they all eventually hit a plateu.

[Dakota Strider]

The flaw with this idea, is that if you find the suit of armor, or weapon that you prefer near the beginning of the game, it really does make finding loot pretty meaningless. For me, part of the fun in any game is finding treasure, and hopefully finding something useful. For that reason, I prefer my "upgrades" come from finding new loot, or occassionally buying it, when I have saved up enough.

I personally can live without modifying armor for looks, if it means that the DA dev team would have to cut corners on other things that are more important. But, if they have all the time and resources to spare, I would prefer a way to modify armor and weapons you acquire, to look the way you want them. And I think you should pay for this "service" too, in game, by taking the items to either a blacksmith, leatherworker, or tailer.

[wsandista]

NO, while I like the idea of upgrading armor and weapons, finding that amazing piece of armor(Legion of the Dead anyone) and then having a generic piece of armor being equal would just really anger me.

On another note, i believe that they should go back to the tier system for equipment in DAO, in DA2 it really sucked that after assembling a great set of armor, I would find random pieces that were superior. Oh and only specific equipment should have bonuses, I hated finding random equipment with better enchantments than the unique equipment.

[Nerdage]

Well best-in-slot items can still be looted or bought later in the game, but the ability to keep an old item at least serviceable would be nice.

For instance, if Adaia's Boots and Wedding Ring weren't effectively two wasted slots on my last Origins playthrough that would've been nice. You could argue I shouldn't be wearing that tat in the first place I suppose, but I wanted to..

[Andraste_Reborn]

I don't think this is as meaningful in a single player game - as I understand it, part of the reason for moddable gear is so that not everyone is running around in the Champion Armor at endgame.

I'm loving moddable gear in TOR, but I am sad that there is apparently no orange version of the white robes my Jedi Knight is currently wearing . I think all the models in the game should have a moddable version. (Well, except the Level 50 endgame gear, because that would be pointless.) It sucks to find the perfect look for you character and then not be able to keep it ... but I should be ranting about that on an entirely different forum.

[deuce985]

I actually proposed something similar. The problem with this system is you would get a lot of useless loot. Like someone above said, part of Dragon Age is exploration and getting that phat loot in the dungeon and seeing what benefits it brings. If they did this...you'd go through most of the game ignoring the rest of the loot. Am I understanding this right? You still get to mod stats correct?

I'd prefer a texture swap. If you find the look of the armor you like, you can swap the graphics over to a new set. I hate running around in dresses/robes all the time for my Mages. Some look ok, some not so much. I want my Mage to look more like the Champion armor. Why does fantasy games always follow that annoying cliche that Mages have to sit in cloth armor and look frail? I'm not saying put me in full plate but nothing in the lore suggests a Mage has to wear cloth all the time...

Why can't Mages sit in armor like this? More exotic looks outside the traditional mold please. Champion armor was a good start.



Something like this still gives a Mage a distinct look that you can easily tell the difference from a Warrior/Rogue. Plus the armor isn't too heavy and he has a Mageish look...

Bioware has to do something about the Mage hoods...

Modifié par deuce985, 13 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[Kidd]

I think modding is great since it allows you to keep whatever looks you prefer. Though, truth be told, it is so much of a fashion thing that the disconnect to the actual game world might be less acceptable in a single player game than in an MMO where you want to look good in front of other players. Not saying that's how it is, but I imagine the idea would meet more resistance in single player.

What I'd prefer, personally, is to have ME-like armour parts we equip that all have unique looks and unique stats - with few made to be better than other parts by design, mostly just allowing different tweakings for builds.

[PsychoBlonde]

I, personally, think it'd be cool if they went to a fully-customizable system whereby stats and items weren't tied to each other--you'd basically get "blank" items (or maybe items with ONE boost tied to them) and runes/gems/whatever that go in those items.

How to screw this up royally: "Higher level" items get more boost slots. The idea of this is that you can use whatever armor appearance suits you, which doesn't work if later items are "better" in some definite way. Every piece of gear that goes in the same slot should get the same number of boost slots. Boosts would naturally get better as you go along, and difficult/hidden foes should drop unique boosts and/or unique gear blanks.

How to make it even more ossum: Have lots of cool and interesting set bonuses for wearing all the blanks of a given "set". (And have more sets that are, like, ring/weapon/shield or necklace/gloves/boots.) Then, to make this even cooler, have unique boosts which have set bonuses, but can only be put in certain pieces of gear (not certain blanks, I mean, they can only go in chest or head or ring.) Now you get to play around with trying to figure out how you can fit in everything you want to have.

And for crying out loud make the defensive bonuses and resistances on your gear MATTER. I really do prefer games where I have to decide, mm, is it better to get 20% more elemental resist or 15% more crit?

The gear in DA:O was kinda medium-boring, but DA2 was an outright snore-fest. Make it more interesting. Have real tradeoffs where you can TELL the difference between wearing one piece of gear and another just by attacking a couple of mobs.

[Sith Grey Warden]

Dakota Strider wrote...

The flaw with this idea, is that if you find the suit of armor, or weapon that you prefer near the beginning of the game, it really does make finding loot pretty meaningless. For me, part of the fun in any game is finding treasure, and hopefully finding something useful. For that reason, I prefer my "upgrades" come from finding new loot, or occassionally buying it, when I have saved up enough.

I'm not familiar with TOR's system, but from what the OP said, perhaps a lot of loot could be finding modifications to use for your armor set instead of new armors. Wouldn't this give the same result?

wsandista wrote...

NO, while I like the idea of upgrading armor and weapons, finding that amazing piece of armor(Legion of the Dead anyone) and then having a generic piece of armor being equal would just really anger me.

On another note, i believe that they should go back to the tier system for equipment in DAO, in DA2 it really sucked that after assembling a great set of armor, I would find random pieces that were superior. Oh and only specific equipment should have bonuses, I hated finding random equipment with better enchantments than the unique equipment.

So maybe you would mainly find unique sets? After all, there wouldn't need to be as many armors if you could upgrade existing ones instead of replacing them.

[Apollo Starflare]

I would definitely support a system similar to TOR's. I do think it has room for improvement, and some changes could be made based on the difference between the two games. However, in principle the system would strike a nice compromise.

To those worrying we would never be excited about loot: Whilst that is an obvious risk of implementing a system like this. that isn't the case with TOR. TOR still saves some of it's best, most enticing, armor designs as rewards for overcoming difficult challenges later in the game. So you still have that drive to get a new armour piece or weapon. The big difference with this system is you never feel like you -must- wear the that specific armour, being able to modify an older design to be as good as it (usually at a cost).

This is a nice touch for those who don't want to feel forced to wear the 'endgame' outfit (e.g. The Champion set in DA2), whether due to the person simply wanting their own look, or because they genuinely dislike that armour design.

[In Exile]

Dakota Strider wrote...

The flaw with this idea, is that if you find the suit of armor, or weapon that you prefer near the beginning of the game, it really does make finding loot pretty meaningless. For me, part of the fun in any game is finding treasure, and hopefully finding something useful. For that reason, I prefer my "upgrades" come from finding new loot, or occassionally buying it, when I have saved up enough.

The loot would be the stat upgrades that you're stripping off one piece of armour and adding to another.

[Wozearly]

wsandista wrote...

NO, while I like the idea of upgrading armor and weapons, finding that amazing piece of armor(Legion of the Dead anyone) and then having a generic piece of armor being equal would just really anger me.

Dakota Strider wrote...

The flaw with this idea, is that
if you find the suit of armor, or weapon that you prefer near the
beginning of the game, it really does make finding loot pretty
meaningless. For me, part of the fun in any game is finding treasure,
and hopefully finding something useful. For that reason, I prefer my
"upgrades" come from finding new loot, or occassionally buying it, when I
have saved up enough.

Are either of you familiar with how the upgrade system in TOR works? Because neither of those should be a concern.

The armour doesn't upgrade with you (as in DA2). Essentially, all moddable (orange) items have zero stats and are entirely dependent on the mods placed in them. Trash gear has fixed stats (universally awful), but worthwhile gear, including unique sets, either has some mods attached or its stats are entirely made up of moddable components as with the orange items.

So if you did keep your L1 item, you'd only get L5 mods to put it in by ripping them out of L5 items - which means you must have purchased / acquired the L5 mod in the first place.

In effect, the system de-links the look of an item from its stats, so you can have your character use the look of (virtually) any armour or weapon without having to sacrifice its bonuses as you can take those from superior items that you don't like the look of. Item sets still give unique bonuses outside of that system (at least they did as of the last time I was in-game), but there were discussions in principle about making those transferrable as well.

Its actually quite an elegant solution to the "...found an epic weapon, but it looks ****e so I don't want to equip it" problem. Along with the "...but I actually like the look of this armour I've been wearing for ages, why can't I keep it" issue, and the "...but I don't want to solve this by having armour that levels up with me and defeats the benefit of finding new loot".

I initially thought I'd hate it in SWTOR, but after actually running with it throughout the game I loved it. In fact, the only things I didn't like were that you couldn't find moddable versions of "all" of the looks, and at launch the endgame gear wasn't fully moddable (so you were kinda stuck with its look in several situations), which was just bizarre.

Frankly, moving to a similar system would be a huge improvement on the DA2 approach and a rare example of the RIGHT things being shared between Bioware franchises.

[Morroian]

Dakota Strider wrote...

The flaw with this idea, is that if you find the suit of armor, or weapon that you prefer near the beginning of the game, it really does make finding loot pretty meaningless. For me, part of the fun in any game is finding treasure, and hopefully finding something useful. For that reason, I prefer my "upgrades" come from finding new loot, or occassionally buying it, when I have saved up enough.

This is a good point.

What about DA3 using a variant on the SWTOR crafting system? With companions the system would work rather well.

[Wozearly]

Morroian wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

The flaw with this idea, is that if you find the suit of armor, or weapon that you prefer near the beginning of the game, it really does make finding loot pretty meaningless. For me, part of the fun in any game is finding treasure, and hopefully finding something useful. For that reason, I prefer my "upgrades" come from finding new loot, or occassionally buying it, when I have saved up enough.

This is a good point.

No, no its not. It completely misunderstands how the SWTOR system works, and makes it sound like you can get epic level gear in the early stages and never need upgrades later. The SWTOR system only provides a mechanism to keep the look of gear from any stage of the game because you can transfer stats from better items onto existing equipment. 

You still have to buy, or find, that better equipment before you can get the stats from it, or use its look. 
So it's essentially no different to DA:O, except that a) you don't have to equip items you don't like the look of because you want the stats (assuming armour set bonuses, if they exist, can be transferred with their component modules).

This particular criticism is demonstrably wrong.

[Wozearly]

...if the criticism is actually the problem of "best looking" gear being found early in the game (accepting that this is a subjective judgement and players' preferences differ), then that's down to developers trying to ensure this doesn't happen. Not that youd know as a player on playthrough 1, and if you're happy with you look throughout the game, is it actually an issue?

Either way, it's a better problem for players to have to deal with than the current position, where you're forced to choose between a limited number of endgame sets or suffer a significant stats sacrifice to use an earlier piece of gear that you prefer the look of.

The system gives the player greater control over the look of their characters by removing this barrier. I struggle to see how that goal is a bad thing (although SWTOR's model is not necessarily the best method to achieve it).

[Dakota Strider]

I would prefer having choices, over no choices at all. It is highly acceptable for a character to choose to wear armor that "looks good" over function, as for some, that is most important. And others that do not give a rats ash about looks, and would wear the most ugly mismatched set of armor, to get the best protection. It has always been my mantra, when concerning games, that the more choices you have the better. I have often sacrificed function for a armor that looks a lot better. Of course, I often will choose to carry the ugly set of armor, to wear in obvious combat situations, and save the fancy duds for socializing.

[Fast Jimmy]

I haven't played SWTOR or seen this mod system in action, but if it works like you describe, I'd be on board. Instead of finding leather armor +1 and then trading it out for leather armor +6, you'd just have leather armor, then you'd be able to mod it to be +1 or +6 as you see fit?

Better than having a dozen different levels of the same thing with just slightly altered appearances.

[Wozearly]

Dakota Strider wrote...

I would prefer having choices, over no choices at all. It is highly acceptable for a character to choose to wear armor that "looks good" over function, as for some, that is most important. And others that do not give a rats ash about looks, and would wear the most ugly mismatched set of armor, to get the best protection. It has always been my mantra, when concerning games, that the more choices you have the better.

Right, I think I'm getting a better feeling of where you're coming from.

Lets take armour as the example. Using the 'traditional' DA approach, armour had a fixed design, sometimes with varying colours that indicated different levels of gear. Each level of gear had fixed stats for armour and, sometimes, fixed bonuses that naturally scaled with level (e.g. Level 3 = +2 armour, +3 defence. Level 5 = +4 armour, +5 defence). At higher levels, armours also gained empty slots that could have enchantments added that gave the player some ability to customise the stats.

The end result was that players could (and did) end up in situations where at endgame they were choosing from a small number of visual appearances to make use of endgame-quality bonuses. Sometimes mixing and matching pieces from different sets resulted in more effective stat boosts but resulted in an ugly, mismatched look. Equally, people might prefer the visual look of pre-endgame armour and could opt to sacrifice endgame-quality bonuses in order to make use of the preferred visual design, sometimes switching this out in combat situations for effectiveness purposes.

As I understand it, your feeling is that this type of choice - sacrificing visual look for statistical effectiveness - is desirable as a trade-off. I personally disagree. My presumption is that this is a player choice made out of frustration rather than a choice that is designed intentionally into the game by the developers as a method of 'punishing' people pursuing the most effective equipment builds by forcing their characters to look ugly.

I'll explain a SWTOR-based alternative, which may be useful for those unfamiliar with the system. Under a SWTOR model, armour still has a fixed design. Colours might be fixed, although there's no reason they couldn't be 'dyed' by player choice if, for example, you really don't like the colour of 'red steel' armour. Each armour piece has a base of zero - no armour rating, no stat bonuses, and 3-4 mod slots. These mod slots provide all of the armour's qualities - (e.g. armour rating, stat bonusus) and also determine equippable requirements. Mods may be purchased from vendors, found as loot, or extracted from other armour.

Every armour can be returned to its base state by extracting all of its mods, but almost all armour you find will have mods in it that are appropriate to the level at which you acquired them. This is exactly the same principle as the way loot is awarded in DA at present, with the exception that the stats are transferrable between items.

The effect is that control over visual look and customisation is passed to the player. If you find a piece of armour with nice stats and a poor visual appearance, you can extract its mods and place them into a different piece of armour whose visual appearance you prefer. You also have control over the stat bonuses through the same method, so two players with the same base piece of armour could have (in principle) completely different bonuses via the mods that have been slotted into it.

Under this model, visual appearance is no longer part of the trade-off equation. You're not forced to equip an item for its stats, and can instead choose the look that you want your character to have. However, you gain no advantage whilst levelling - you still pick up higher quality mods at the same rate as you would do under a system where new armour pieces had fixed stats.

The trade-offs in terms of stats will be largely determined by whether you can stack multiple versions of the same stat bonuses into one armour piece (e.g. 3 separate +3 strength boosts), or whether certain bonuses are restricted to specific mod slots (e.g. only slot 1 can be used for strength boosts). SWTOR uses a mix of the two approaches for different bonuses, depending on their importance in-game.

There is no reason that the SWTOR model would have to give the player more control over stat boosts than the traditional model for balancing purposes (you could put all armour stats into a single, extractable mod) but it has the potential for doing so.

There is also no reason that the SWTOR model would require giving the player the 'best looking' armour early on. However, if the player prefers a design other than one of the endgame designs for their character, this means they can continue to have that without being forced to sacrifice stat boosts.

This, to me, is a far more positive type of choice to offer to players.

Modifié par Wozearly, 15 mai 2012 - 07:47 .

[Dakota Strider]

Wozearly wrote...
I'll explain a SWTOR-based alternative, ....

Every armour can be returned to its base state by extracting all of its mods, but almost all armour you find will have mods in it that are appropriate to the level at which you acquired them. This is exactly the same principle as the way loot is awarded in DA at present, with the exception that the stats are transferrable between items.

The effect is that control over visual look and customisation is passed to the player. If you find a piece of armour with nice stats and a poor visual appearance, you can extract its mods and place them into a different piece of armour whose visual appearance you prefer. You also have control over the stat bonuses through the same method, so two players with the same base piece of armour could have (in principle) completely different bonuses via the mods that have been slotted into it.

I read your whole post, and understand your argument, and what you want to see.  I am just highlighting the above to comment on that.

HOW does the character do this?  I understand that the "player" can just hit a few buttons and change the looks.  If Hawke (for example)  who is wearing Armor A, which looks exactly the way he likes, and finds Armor B, that while is uglier, gives better protection,  what is the rationale, or method that Hawke (the character, not the player) would use to be able to transform Armor B to look exactly like Armor A?    Does he just make a wish, does he find a mage or tranquil that "poofs" them together, a Dwarven smith.  Or does he need to find Sandal, who seems to be able to do anything?

Being able to swap components in futuristic armor, I can see being done in logical sort of way, in game.  But in a gameworld where the materials of armor is either hand forged metal, or hand cured and tanned leather , or hand made cloth, and then through some mysterious method enchanted, you cannot just swap key elements from one armor, and trade it with another.  Especially if one armor is metal, and another is cloth, or leather. 

I am not arguing that it would be easy for the player to do.  I just cannot see a way to justify the character having the ability to do this.  Perhaps there are enough people that do not give a damn about game immersion, and making things in game behave in a logical manner.   But I am against the player, in a metagame (sorry cannot think of a more accurate term) sort of way, just hit a button, and "BOOM", the armor / weapon looks different.

I am not against being able to take an item that you really like, and changing the appearance of it in DA.  However, it should involve paying high level craftsman to do the work.  Wade and Herren could have a thriving business doing this.  And it should not be easy, the craftsman may send you to acquire certain items that are required to change the looks of an item that has already been bound with magic.

While enchantment really has not been explained very well in DA, we can use what we have learned in DA2, that once you bind a rune to an item, that you can never remove it.   Because of the nature of magic, that is not unreasonable.  So in my mind, taking any type of enchantment out of one item and putting it in another should be near impossible.  

If a way could be explained, that is consistant with the magic system (that we know about) in DA, that allows the swapping the properties of items around, in a way that is not a total retcon of what we know of this world, I would be fine with it.   But just because a game program allows you to swap properties around, does not mean it makes sense, inside the game.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 16 mai 2012 - 06:59 .