211 réponses à ce sujet

[Iwillbeback]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

CGAVnerDune wrote...


I mean can you name any other industry where a producer or provider of goods and services can openly berate, dismiss, and demean their consumers and not suffer financially or be torn apart in the news/media?  

Making baseless, hyperbolic accusations like that is part of the reason why people don't take you guys seriously. Mind elaborating in detail how you are constantly being openly berated, demeaned and dismissed? 

Did, did you miss the video in the OP? Or every article from IGN, GameInformer, Gametrailers, Gamespot, and pretty much every other major news outlet?

Better question: How do you define berate, demean, and dismiss?

Their views do not reflect those of Bioware/EA. 

Dr. Muzyka's blog regarding the end fits one of those categories, and the gaming media fits everything else. At this point people consider them one and the same. Are they right to do so? Maybe, maybe not. The venom with which the media responded certainly did an excellent job of filling the silence created by Bioware.

I'm not saying that fans thus far have been saints. I'm not even saying that those who aren't saints are the minority. This is the internet, everybody and their mom comes on here to **** about life and spread negativity.

All I'm saying is that fans who felt slighted by the ending really do have every right to be pissed at this point. You and others may not have noticed, but the full hyperbolic, fallacy ridden force of the modern gaming media has been directed at us.

If you happen to agree with them fine, just spend a few extra seconds considering what it this situation is like for those who disagree with you.

Also remember (or know if you are new here) that the BSN really has always been like this. Never quite so one-sided (except in Paragon vs. Renegade disputes) but the repetition, the nitpicking, and the heated debates. This is still very much normal.

And remember that not everyone is a Drayfish, they aren't schooled in communicating and struggle to find words to express their displeasure.

I'm surprised he was dumb enough to question your first post.
Incompetent trolls are always funny.

[Total Biscuit]

The thing guys like this, and many of the more aggressive posters in this thread seem to be forgetting is that this is nothing to do with 'whiney' fans.

This is about dissatisfied CUSTOMERS, people who have paid money for a product that they believe was not up to the quality of or contain the content that it was advertised to have. And there is no arguing with the fact that the ending is a massive flaw that has entirely ruined not only ME3, but every other product Bioware put out for a significant number of people. Bioware sold its customers not only a different product to what was expected, but that they used false advertising to for almost 18 months to sell.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if the complaints are emotional and snide, because it's still a paying costumer whose doing it, and both from both a business and legal point of view they should be, and in a very real sense are very important to listen to if Bioware wants to keep selling more product to them in the future.

If you were sold a product you don't like, you have a right to complain in any manner you like as long as it doesn't break any laws. Bioware are thankfully listening to these people, rather than the idiots who seem to have no concept of consumer rights, and have offered both a full refund and to alter their product to try and keep these unsatisfied customers future business.

The people whining about valid customer complaints because they dont like some of the complainers tones are the ones who are irrelevant in all this. The huge customer backlash and potential loss of future earnings are all Bioware and EA are going to give a damn about in all this, unless they're so stupid/arragant/naive as to think themselves above sensible and legal business practices.

Frankly I wonder if the harsh way the gaming journalists are treating the customers is all part of gaming still being seen as something childish and unimportant. It would certainly explain why business and media journalists who don't specialise in gaming are generally on the customers side, because in any other industry, entertainment or otherwise, this situation wouldn't occur, and no one would be seriously attacking the consumer.

It's a shame we've not had more consumer rights watchdogs getting involved really, but again, games still aren't really seen as a legitamate media industry to most people, so I'm not really surprised.

[GuardianAngel470]

Deathstroke123 wrote...


And do you know how you get your voice heard about your distaste for a publication in a capitalist society? Money talks FAR louder then words to any for-profit company. So what do you do?

You don't click on it. You don't read it. It's as simple as that. Don't like the fact that Gametrailers just knocked your ice cream out of your hand and totally broke your mellow? Don't go on their website. Stop whining, move on.

I sincerely hope you NEVER read user reviews, otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.

This is the internet era, we leave reviews, we email customer service, we tweet our experience. What you just described is an overgeneralization of the pure capitalist system (something I might add doesn't exist in any modern society). At no point in history has a consumer's only two choices been to buy the product or not buy the product.

It's a catch all, pre-made excuse used by everybody and their mother to dismiss complaints, both legitimate and illegitimate. If you have a problem with our arguments, point out the flaws. If you have a problem with our "whining", point out, in detail, WHY it's whining.

If you prove your case, I'll concede defeat. Otherwise you're namecalling without supporting evidence.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 13 mai 2012 - 09:52 .

[Merchant2006]

Michael Pacher is a ****ing idiot. Honestly, there is just so much I could say about this man that whatever he spews out is just absolute garbage. He's this pretentious self-proclaimed economist of the video game industry who knows little to nothing about what truly is going on, and assumes that he is all-knowledgeable about what he's rambling on about.

I'm not even going to try to continue, but to those of you who idolise this individual, watch this video.

[SpiderFan1217]

Merchant2006 wrote...

Michael Pacher is a ****ing idiot. Honestly, there is just so much I could say about this man that whatever he spews out is just absolute garbage. He's this pretentious self-proclaimed economist of the video game industry who knows little to nothing about what truly is going on, and assumes that he is all-knowledgeable about what he's rambling on about.

I'm not even going to try to continue, but to those of you who idolise this individual, watch this video.

I'm thinking this is a prime example of what Pacher would call a whiner.

[Torrible]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

CGAVnerDune wrote...


I mean can you name any other industry where a producer or provider of goods and services can openly berate, dismiss, and demean their consumers and not suffer financially or be torn apart in the news/media?  

Making baseless, hyperbolic accusations like that is part of the reason why people don't take you guys seriously. Mind elaborating in detail how you are constantly being openly berated, demeaned and dismissed? 

Did, did you miss the video in the OP? Or every article from IGN, GameInformer, Gametrailers, Gamespot, and pretty much every other major news outlet?

Better question: How do you define berate, demean, and dismiss?

Their views do not reflect those of Bioware/EA. 

Dr. Muzyka's blog regarding the end fits one of those categories, and the gaming media fits everything else. At this point people consider them one and the same. Are they right to do so? Maybe, maybe not. The venom with which the media responded certainly did an excellent job of filling the silence created by Bioware.

I'm not saying that fans thus far have been saints. I'm not even saying that those who aren't saints are the minority. This is the internet, everybody and their mom comes on here to **** about life and spread negativity.

All I'm saying is that fans who felt slighted by the ending really do have every right to be pissed at this point. You and others may not have noticed, but the full hyperbolic, fallacy ridden force of the modern gaming media has been directed at us.

If you happen to agree with them fine, just spend a few extra seconds considering what it this situation is like for those who disagree with you.

Also remember (or know if you are new here) that the BSN really has always been like this. Never quite so one-sided (except in Paragon vs. Renegade disputes) but the repetition, the nitpicking, and the heated debates. This is still very much normal.

And remember that not everyone is a Drayfish, they aren't schooled in communicating and struggle to find words to express their displeasure.

I read the blog. Defending their artistic intergrity is not insulting or dismissing the fans.The EC itself is a compromise. Not completely rewriting the ending shouldn't be akin to a slap in the face. I don't even know where the other accusations come from but the blog seem to have started something. I've followed many of their tweets since then and they have been nothing but benign. In the discussion of those tweets, there have been plenty of cautious optimism even here on BSN. However, a group of people (either with an agenda or affected by groupthink) seem to be actively painting Bioware in a bad light, accusing them of insulting/dismissing their fanbase without any concrete proof. None of them seem to be able to produce any proof apart from pointing to Bioware actually having the temerity to defend their own work (that one time).

[Deathstroke123]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Deathstroke123 wrote...


And do you know how you get your voice heard about your distaste for a publication in a capitalist society? Money talks FAR louder then words to any for-profit company. So what do you do?

You don't click on it. You don't read it. It's as simple as that. Don't like the fact that Gametrailers just knocked your ice cream out of your hand and totally broke your mellow? Don't go on their website. Stop whining, move on.

I sincerely hope you NEVER read user reviews, otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.

This is the internet era, we leave reviews, we email customer service, we tweet our experience. What you just described is an overgeneralization of the pure capitalist system (something I might add doesn't exist in any modern society). At no point in history has a consumer's only two choices been to buy the product or not buy the product.

It's a catch all, pre-made excuse used by everybody and their mother to dismiss complaints, both legitimate and illegitimate. If you have a problem with our arguments, point out the flaws. If you have a problem with our "whining", point out, in detail, WHY it's whining.

If you prove your case, I'll concede defeat. Otherwise you're namecalling without supporting evidence.

I don't, because user reviews are riddled with people either saying 'Best game ever 10/10', or 'Worst game ever 0/10'. I can usually form my own opinion about a game through demos, vids, and actually playing the game.

What I'm saying is this: You can go on the Gametrailers website and post complaint threads there until the cows come home. You'll still be supporting them by just being there. Or, you can ignore them and not give them potential profits. What's the better solution?

My definition of whining is a wee bit different from the guy in the vid, though we share alot of points. If you aren't putting an effort behind your complaint to actually get it noticed by people who matter, then you're just yelling into the uncaring void and wasting breath. That's what so many posts here and elsewhere boil down to, when people start complaining just to hear the sound of their own voice, or to appear like a 'rebel', ooh yeah, stick it to Bioware with your harsh words and cutting wit. THAT is whining, and that is about 85% of these boards to me.

[Torrible]

Iwillbeback wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

CGAVnerDune wrote...


I mean can you name any other industry where a producer or provider of goods and services can openly berate, dismiss, and demean their consumers and not suffer financially or be torn apart in the news/media?  

Making baseless, hyperbolic accusations like that is part of the reason why people don't take you guys seriously. Mind elaborating in detail how you are constantly being openly berated, demeaned and dismissed? 

Did, did you miss the video in the OP? Or every article from IGN, GameInformer, Gametrailers, Gamespot, and pretty much every other major news outlet?

Better question: How do you define berate, demean, and dismiss?

Their views do not reflect those of Bioware/EA. 

Dr. Muzyka's blog regarding the end fits one of those categories, and the gaming media fits everything else. At this point people consider them one and the same. Are they right to do so? Maybe, maybe not. The venom with which the media responded certainly did an excellent job of filling the silence created by Bioware.

I'm not saying that fans thus far have been saints. I'm not even saying that those who aren't saints are the minority. This is the internet, everybody and their mom comes on here to **** about life and spread negativity.

All I'm saying is that fans who felt slighted by the ending really do have every right to be pissed at this point. You and others may not have noticed, but the full hyperbolic, fallacy ridden force of the modern gaming media has been directed at us.

If you happen to agree with them fine, just spend a few extra seconds considering what it this situation is like for those who disagree with you.

Also remember (or know if you are new here) that the BSN really has always been like this. Never quite so one-sided (except in Paragon vs. Renegade disputes) but the repetition, the nitpicking, and the heated debates. This is still very much normal.

And remember that not everyone is a Drayfish, they aren't schooled in communicating and struggle to find words to express their displeasure.

I'm surprised he was dumb enough to question your first post.
Incompetent trolls are always funny.

You realise you are only making yourself look bad right? 

[Iwillbeback]

Torrible wrote...


You realise you are only making yourself look bad right? 

After the **** I did, commenting on trolls like you is a good break.

[Torrible]

Iwillbeback wrote...

Torrible wrote...


You realise you are only making yourself look bad right? 

After the **** I did, commenting on trolls like you is a good break.

Someone made an accuation without proof. I called him out for it and I'm the troll.  I suppose your post isn't any worse than the "I refuse to watch the video but Pacher's an idiot nonetheless" posts.

[MetioricTest]

ITT: Complainers and whiners Complain and whine about complainers and whiners who are complaining and whining about the complainers and whiners who are complaining and whining.


O_o

So...

I like Mass Effect.

[GuardianAngel470]

Deathstroke123 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Deathstroke123 wrote...


And do you know how you get your voice heard about your distaste for a publication in a capitalist society? Money talks FAR louder then words to any for-profit company. So what do you do?

You don't click on it. You don't read it. It's as simple as that. Don't like the fact that Gametrailers just knocked your ice cream out of your hand and totally broke your mellow? Don't go on their website. Stop whining, move on.

I sincerely hope you NEVER read user reviews, otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.

This is the internet era, we leave reviews, we email customer service, we tweet our experience. What you just described is an overgeneralization of the pure capitalist system (something I might add doesn't exist in any modern society). At no point in history has a consumer's only two choices been to buy the product or not buy the product.

It's a catch all, pre-made excuse used by everybody and their mother to dismiss complaints, both legitimate and illegitimate. If you have a problem with our arguments, point out the flaws. If you have a problem with our "whining", point out, in detail, WHY it's whining.

If you prove your case, I'll concede defeat. Otherwise you're namecalling without supporting evidence.

I don't, because user reviews are riddled with people either saying 'Best game ever 10/10', or 'Worst game ever 0/10'. I can usually form my own opinion about a game through demos, vids, and actually playing the game.

What I'm saying is this: You can go on the Gametrailers website and post complaint threads there until the cows come home. You'll still be supporting them by just being there. Or, you can ignore them and not give them potential profits. What's the better solution?

My definition of whining is a wee bit different from the guy in the vid, though we share alot of points. If you aren't putting an effort behind your complaint to actually get it noticed by people who matter, then you're just yelling into the uncaring void and wasting breath. That's what so many posts here and elsewhere boil down to, when people start complaining just to hear the sound of their own voice, or to appear like a 'rebel', ooh yeah, stick it to Bioware with your harsh words and cutting wit. THAT is whining, and that is about 85% of these boards to me.

You're assuming I haven't already chosen to avoid providing business with those companies. I have. I haven't visited any of their websites since this whole thing started. That doesn't mean I don't have other avenues to pursue.

This board, contrary to the scenario you presented, is a discussion board. It's sole purpose is to provide a place for people who have played a Bioware game to go and discuss said game. That's its purpose. What you seem to be telling me is that you disapprove of people discussing the ending and Bioware in general on a discussion board designed to fascilitate just that.

You seem to be assuming that people aren't doing other things to make their voices heard directly to those in positions of power. But all the initiatives of Hold The Line.com and RetakeME3 are things many of us have participated in, and here is one of the places people go to coordinate those things.

Keep in mind that there are no media outlet-review sites. I can't go to a metacritic for media and provide a low customer review of IGN, GameInformer, or whathaveyou.

[Ridwan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

BABEik52092 wrote...



He just posted this up today on Gametrailers. He basically brings up Mass Effect 3 again and how we are all whiners and not complainers, because we are "sniveling in a peevish, self-pitying way" about the ending by wanting to not buy EA and Bioware products and by possibly having a hand in the "EA Worst Company in America" award.

However, he defines complainers as "respectiful, thoughtful consumers that have an intelligent basis of argument on the issue at hand."

Its just so maddening to see that here he is whining about a minority of whiners among the Mass Effect 3 anti-enders population. We, as a fan base, DO IN FACT have a thoughtful and logical stance and supporting evidence as too why we believe the end to ME3 sucks and as to why we are so vocal about it.

I know most of you here hate Pacher anyway. Only watch the segment if you wanted to see how stupid his argument is.

I was unable to continue watching, he whines about whiners, his voice is whining all the way through, geeze.

But he's right

Lol. Michael Pachter and being right is an oxymoron. This guy is never right about anything, and a blogger called Sean Malstrom has repeatedly made him look foolish.

[Merchant2006]

IReuven wrote...

Merchant2006 wrote...

Michael Pacher is a ****ing idiot. Honestly, there is just so much I could say about this man that whatever he spews out is just absolute garbage. He's this pretentious self-proclaimed economist of the video game industry who knows little to nothing about what truly is going on, and assumes that he is all-knowledgeable about what he's rambling on about.

I'm not even going to try to continue, but to those of you who idolise this individual, watch this video.

This one has seen the possible truth.

At any rate please anyone try to stop me from being unhappy with ME3, stop me from being disappointed, and please take away my law to say that I am unhappy on BSN.
Please do it. Go arhead, make my day.

[ReXspec]

Merchant2006 wrote...

IReuven wrote...

Merchant2006 wrote...

Michael Pacher is a ****ing idiot. Honestly, there is just so much I could say about this man that whatever he spews out is just absolute garbage. He's this pretentious self-proclaimed economist of the video game industry who knows little to nothing about what truly is going on, and assumes that he is all-knowledgeable about what he's rambling on about.

I'm not even going to try to continue, but to those of you who idolise this individual, watch this video.

This one has seen the possible truth.

At any rate please anyone try to stop me from being unhappy with ME3, stop me from being disappointed, and please take away my law to say that I am unhappy on BSN.
Please do it. Go arhead, make my day.

Agreed.  A thousand times, agreed.

Also, epicly awesome.

[Bone3ater]

Total Biscuit wrote...

The thing guys like this, and many of the more aggressive posters in this thread seem to be forgetting is that this is nothing to do with 'whiney' fans.

This is about dissatisfied CUSTOMERS, people who have paid money for a product that they believe was not up to the quality of or contain the content that it was advertised to have. And there is no arguing with the fact that the ending is a massive flaw that has entirely ruined not only ME3, but every other product Bioware put out for a significant number of people. Bioware sold its customers not only a different product to what was expected, but that they used false advertising to for almost 18 months to sell.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if the complaints are emotional and snide, because it's still a paying costumer whose doing it, and both from both a business and legal point of view they should be, and in a very real sense are very important to listen to if Bioware wants to keep selling more product to them in the future.

If you were sold a product you don't like, you have a right to complain in any manner you like as long as it doesn't break any laws. Bioware are thankfully listening to these people, rather than the idiots who seem to have no concept of consumer rights, and have offered both a full refund and to alter their product to try and keep these unsatisfied customers future business.

The people whining about valid customer complaints because they dont like some of the complainers tones are the ones who are irrelevant in all this. The huge customer backlash and potential loss of future earnings are all Bioware and EA are going to give a damn about in all this, unless they're so stupid/arragant/naive as to think themselves above sensible and legal business practices.

Frankly I wonder if the harsh way the gaming journalists are treating the customers is all part of gaming still being seen as something childish and unimportant. It would certainly explain why business and media journalists who don't specialise in gaming are generally on the customers side, because in any other industry, entertainment or otherwise, this situation wouldn't occur, and no one would be seriously attacking the consumer.

It's a shame we've not had more consumer rights watchdogs getting involved really, but again, games still aren't really seen as a legitamate media industry to most people, so I'm not really surprised.

Couldn't agree more. This is exactly why we need defined laws regarding video games. Don't know why we don't already have them.

[Fingertrip]

Michael Pachter is a man of sense, and is actually a proffesional. This whole demand for a new ending is ridicilous and disrepectful towards the developers.

[Lyrebon]

Michael Pachter was always a douchebag. He's in the league with Bill O'Reily and Glenn Beck. These kind of people always believe in themselves and never step back to look at the bigger picture. They actually convince themselves their bull**** is enlightening and are amazed when others call them bigots and narrow-minded.

Pachter is just a snob claiming to understand how the poor live (metaphor, yes, I'm not calling anyone here a peasant ... Pachter is though, you should lynch him).

Besides, anyone that claims to be a professional resorting to profanity, belittling and abuse in a professional capacity is pathetic and unworthy of holding that career.

Modifié par Lyrebon, 13 mai 2012 - 01:44 .

[The Night Mammoth]

I'm a whiner and proud. Come at me Pachter.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 13 mai 2012 - 01:44 .

[The Angry One]

From Tuchanka with Love wrote...

 The truth hurts, doesn't it? Your reactions to the ending are eniterly emotional and not even connected to anykind of logic.

There is page after page of logical arguments. The true emotional whining comes from people like you, people who'll defend the game no matter what out of a misguided and pitiable sense of loyalty.

The truth hurts, doesn't it.

[Ridwan]

Fingertrip wrote...

Michael Pachter is a man of sense, and is actually a proffesional. This whole demand for a new ending is ridicilous and disrepectful towards the developers.

Michael "Wii HD" Pachter doesn't know what he is talking about, he patently misunderstands (or is just ignorant) about plenty things. A freaking online blogger (Sean Malstrom) has more credibility than him.