419 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

iakus wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Considering most consider ME3's ending to be sad this is evidently true for them.

And so does it also not make sense that the deaths causing heartstring-tugging might be true for them as well?

I get the feeling you're trying to say something but are having some difficulty putting the words together.

Because after everything Shepard has done, saving everything from individuals to colonies to the whole galaxy multiple times, some people feel that a viking funeral is not an appropriate reward. Being able to retire in peace, however, is.

From an in-universe perspective people don't get what they 'deserve'. It's a simple fact.

From an out of game perspective, I ask why is it necessary for you to know that Shepard lived happily ever after? He's gone either way so really why do you care? The game is over period.

What you should be concerned about is the fact that the writing for the endings was ****, not that the credits didn't say your Sue ran off to **** his space-waifu.

So I think having the option to have that outcome is "necessary"

Having a "happily ever after" option invalidates all the other options.

What Bioware should have done is have a multitude of endings based on your choices throughout the series that both have positive and negative repercussions that ultimately leave it up to the individual whether the ending was "happy" or not.

[CrystalCircuit]

True art is angsty.

Seriously though, a happy ending should have been one of the 16 endings they promised.

[Andromidius]

Sidney wrote...

Except what people seem to miss- rainbows and unicorns being the desired outcome stop lying to yourself

Did you read what I even said?  Or are you purposely being obtuse?

How dishonest of you.

Not to mention how you can consider the current endings to even be remotely 'happy' - galactic civilisation being destroyed is a bad ending all by itself!  Not to mention potential Reaperisation of the entire galactic to conform to their demands, or genocide of innocent species, stranded friends...

Not to mention even if none of those happened and NO-ONE else died...it still wouldn't be 'Rainbows and Unicorns' because of how messed up the galaxy was from the war itself!

Yeah, stop kidding yourself.  Or stop trolling.  Whichever it is you're doing.

Modifié par Andromidius, 18 mai 2012 - 10:24 .

[3DandBeyond]

Endings that could have been as I see it:

Reapers win, everything's trashed, Shepard dies - a real win for them, not the critical mission failure thing.
Reapers win, things are trashed, Shepard lives but sees the hopelessness of it all, everyone else dies and we know Shepard will too.
Reapers lose, things are trashed, Shepard dies-a lot of angst as everyone tries to rebuild from the ashes. Friends are dead, LI dead, and so on.
Reapers lose, Shepard dies, friends and/or LI survive. Bittersweet-memorial to honor Shepard.
Reapers lose, Shepard and everyone survives. Must rebuild. But basically one big happy party afterward.
Reapers are driven off, but will return or maybe the current wave is destroyed but promise more are on the way-maybe Shepard screwed up. Everyone is mad at Shepard for not destroying them when it was possible.

I just see that whether or not Shepard lived could be a revolving issue, separate from whether the reapers were destroyed and maybe more based upon different things and how quickly Shepard did them. Or Shepard's personality.

I don't think there should be just sad or bittersweet or happy. My preference is full on happy and that is just as valid as any other desired ending.

[Iakus]

GodWood wrote...

iakus wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Considering most consider ME3's ending to be sad this is evidently true for them.

And so does it also not make sense that the deaths causing heartstring-tugging might be true for them as well?

I get the feeling you're trying to say something but are having some difficulty putting the words together.

If people find ME3's ending sad, doesn't it also make sense that other deaths and disasters witnessed in the game may also be considered sad to these same people?  That the death of the protagonist isn't a requirement for these people to feel a tug on the heartstrings?  Clear enough?

From an out of game perspective, I ask why is it necessary for you to know that Shepard lived happily ever after? He's gone either way so really why do you care? The game is over period.

Same reason you think it's necessary for Shepard to go out in a blaze of glory:  Because that's how I like it.  The story is ending, I want to shape an ending that ends on a high note.  An uplifing ending where Shepard comes home after a long, hard journey.  I'm a fan of Earn Your Happy Ending.  And up until the last few minutes, that's where it looked like Shepard's story was going.

What you should be concerned about is the fact that the writing for the endings was ****, not that the credits didn't say your Sue ran off to **** his space-waifu.

I'm concerned about both.  The ending failed on many levels.

but tell you what, you don't use the term "space-waifu" and I won't use the term "grimdark."  Deal?

Having a "happily ever after" option invalidates all the other options.

What Bioware should have done is have a multitude of endings based on your choices throughout the series that both have positive and negative repercussions that ultimately leave it up to the individual whether the ending was "happy" or not.

I've never said I wanted a "happily ever after" ending.  It's impossible given the events in ME3 well before the ending comes about.  "Shepard lives and is reunited with crew/LI =/=  "happily ever after"

That said, I totally agree with the rest.  Multiple endings based on choices throughout the series is what I genuinely expected from a Bioware game.

Alas, I was wrong.

Modifié par iakus, 26 mai 2012 - 06:15 .

[3DandBeyond]

Thing is I don't find the ending as it is, sad. It isn't happy either. It's mind numbingly bland, void of all feeling whatsover. I wanted a sensible ending, what I got was some evil reaper kid that my Shepard believed for no sensible reason. I got this kid saying he was there to save me from himself-something a poster in another forum said so well and succinctly.

The kid is saying, "I am here to save you from me." And so, now the idea that he is there to save me by killing me begins to make sense.

In light of this nonsense I can't bring myself to feel anything. My brain has been so insulted that my heart won't engage in all this.

If I am sad, it's because I can't imagine anyone writing this and thinking it answered everything and that it was just awesome and bittersweet. There's nothing sweet about it and the bitter is overwhelming. And am I actually supposed to be happy that there's a burned up torso taking a breath and that Joker and my LI and some friends have found Nirvana, but I have no idea if they really have or not?

I don't for one minute believe that the only ending should be fullblown happy, because I see validity in a truly bittersweet one that is just gut-wrenching in what it means. But I wanted the chance for variety and I wanted it to logically follow what I had done along the way, not ignore choices I made. And I didn't want Shepard turned into some mindless robot who does what the evil kid says.

[Sabriana]

I would like the chance to get a satisfying ending. I don't think 'happy' is possible, seeing the state the galaxy is in, and the physical and above all, psychological scraring Shepard received during the trilogy. She would definitely have some major recovery work to do on herself. So the conventional 'happily ever after' would, or could not apply.

I would like an ending where Shepard survives (no, I don't consider the 'breath scene' a 'Shepard lives' ending. I can't get it, no MP, see). I want that to be one of the endings, one of many from 'reapers win you're all paste' all the way to 'reapers lose, Shepard lives'.

That's why I love DAO. I have so many different outcomes for my 16 Wardens. A few chose the ultimate sacrifice, because that was the only choice those Wardens could make. It was so heart-wrenching to see how the ultimate sacrifice of those Wardens impacted her companions.

[Getorex]

The ending of ME3 wasn't "sad" it was just patently ridiculous with some gratuitous death (suicide actually) tossed in beyond your control.

Beyond that, there's nothing wrong with a "happy" ending. Nothing at all. Should be one of several possibles and be the most difficult to achieve.

[3DandBeyond]

Getorex wrote...

The ending of ME3 wasn't "sad" it was just patently ridiculous with some gratuitous death (suicide actually) tossed in beyond your control.

Beyond that, there's nothing wrong with a "happy" ending. Nothing at all. Should be one of several possibles and be the most difficult to achieve.

Yes, exactly and to the point the previous poster made, MP should not factor into the equation.  It should solely be based upon your actions within the game. 

I agree that the choices are suicide in all 3 illustrious cases unless you get the gasp ending.  Wooowie was that ever satisfying.  Ugh.

I don't mind a truly happy ending being hard to achieve-it just should be possible.  Some say it's gratuitous.  Well, what do we have now, gratuitous stuff all mish moshed together.  It's disjointed, not only disconnected from the games before, but disjointed from each of the other parts of the ending.

[Getorex]

Three endings, each of which actually sucks in different ways but also has differing benefits more broadly, fits in perfectly and is totally appropriate to the Deus Ex games. None of the offered endings there came out of FAR left field - they were organic outgrowths from the story all along.

Sticking a weak copy of those choices into a totally different game with a TOTALLY different storyline just doesn't work (ME3). You don't DO that.

The WORST ending option is the green option because it flat-out requires god magic. Literally. To magically change all organic life in the flash of a green light into something of a mix between organic and synthetic GALAXY-WIDE is, undeniably, a GOD power. Thus it is ridiculous and unacceptable.

You want a "melding of organic and synthetic"? Play Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Your character, Adam Jensen, is the epitomy of a "synthesis" between organic and synthetic. For that matter, Shepard in ME3 is similar to Adam Jensen in DEHR - Shepard has a fair number of his parts and accessories replaced by tech, just like Adam. THAT makes him (or her) a true combo between organic and synthetic. That's all it takes, not some silly green beams and god magic. Just ask all organics to go to the chop shop and get some parts replaced by hardware and ask the synthetics to visit a bio shop and have some meaty parts inserted. Ta-da! Everyone's now a true mix of organic and synthetic and no magic beams/god powers are required!

That god nonsense with magic green beams changing all life in the galaxy belongs in a FANTASY game like DA or some other sword and sorcery game, NOT in a sci-fi game, damnit.

Modifié par Getorex, 26 mai 2012 - 06:22 .

[Sabriana]

No, the magic green beam does not belong in DA. I was upset enough about sayan samurai Meredith and herp-derp Harvester Orsini. If they shot out a beam that fused mages and mundane, I would be very, very upset.

That beam does not belong anywhere. It's upsetting and revolting. It was *the* one option that made me sit and stare, and question my perception. It lead to 'crucible destroyed, critical mission failure' my first time around. I simply could not believe it was offered as an option. Mind you, I am a rabid fantasy RPG fan

I would not accept that resolution in a fantasy game, let alone in a space opera. It was fine in Deus Ex Machina, because it was done different and much better in DEM 1 and DEM:HR. I expected it. I was told about it from the beginning on. It was not sprung on me in the very last sequence.

I expected adherence to the story line of ME. I expected the 'united in diversity' from ME. Instead I got a Deus Ex Machina in form of a super-weapon introduced in the very last part of the trilogy, and a Diabolus Ex Machina in the form of a child that no reaper should know about unless Shepard's head was poked around in.

I wonder how they will explain. I truly do. The EC might be able to fix things to an extend. It depends on who writes it, and above all, it depends on peer review. If Shepard is still a spineless sap who rolls over and lets the Reaper-Commander-in-Chief dictate to her, I'll be done, and I'll be watching DA3 until that too disappoints (hopefully not). If not, I wonder how they will do it so she's not a spineless, simpering idiot, whose IQ dropped in half when meeting the boss of her biggest and most despised enemies.

[Getorex]

Sabriana wrote...

No, the magic green beam does not belong in DA. I was upset enough about sayan samurai Meredith and herp-derp Harvester Orsini. If they shot out a beam that fused mages and mundane, I would be very, very upset.

That beam does not belong anywhere. It's upsetting and revolting. It was *the* one option that made me sit and stare, and question my perception. It lead to 'crucible destroyed, critical mission failure' my first time around. I simply could not believe it was offered as an option. Mind you, I am a rabid fantasy RPG fan

I would not accept that resolution in a fantasy game, let alone in a space opera. It was fine in Deus Ex Machina, because it was done different and much better in DEM 1 and DEM:HR. I expected it. I was told about it from the beginning on. It was not sprung on me in the very last sequence.

I expected adherence to the story line of ME. I expected the 'united in diversity' from ME. Instead I got a Deus Ex Machina in form of a super-weapon introduced in the very last part of the trilogy, and a Diabolus Ex Machina in the form of a child that no reaper should know about unless Shepard's head was poked around in.

I wonder how they will explain. I truly do. The EC might be able to fix things to an extend. It depends on who writes it, and above all, it depends on peer review. If Shepard is still a spineless sap who rolls over and lets the Reaper-Commander-in-Chief dictate to her, I'll be done, and I'll be watching DA3 until that too disappoints (hopefully not). If not, I wonder how they will do it so she's not a spineless, simpering idiot, whose IQ dropped in half when meeting the boss of her biggest and most despised enemies.

Shepard will still be a sap who goes along to get along, if by "get along" you mean "commit suicide for no damn good reason".  The only proper answer to the ending is for Shepard to kick the kid in the crotch.  Crotch kicks are good universally.  They work on boys, girls, men, women...and star toddlers.  If you can find a crotch on a reaper it would work on them too.  Crotch kick is the answer.

[Sabriana]

Tea. All over my desk. All over my clothes. And I was dressed to go out. Thank you, Getorex.

But yes. I wanted nothing more than punt the Reaper-Commander-in-Chief off the Citadel. But I couldn't even ask him any questions. My heretofore 'diverse but unified galaxy' Shepard simply rolled over. And Joker.... well.

It might be better to just cut some things. Like everything after Shepard sits down and talks to her mentor. It's a much better ending. Yes, I would have to use head-cannon, but it would be so much better than seeing her roll over and submit.

[Jademoon121]

In DAO, I worked my ass off to get a good ending. I did all the companion quests, buddied up with them, and tried to resolve the entire story with as little bloodshed as possible with everyone alive at the end.

In ME1, I worked my ass off to stay on the paragon path which I personally consider to be the best outcome. I tried to avoid conflict and cultivate diplomacy and understanding. Everything I did was for the benefit for the entire galaxy.

In ME2 I did the same, but also did all the companion quests, side-quests, some DLC, and left the Collector Ship all unscathed. No one who didn't have to die, died.

In ME3, no matter how hard I work at trying to limit the damages and casualties, the ending remains roughly the same. I get it that this is supposed to a battle of apocalyptic proportions, but there should be some hope at the end of the tunnel, some closure.

After working so hard to keep the galaxy together, I should feel safe in knowing that my friends, companions, and places like Thessia, Tuchanka, Rannoch, Earth, and the Citadel, can recover from all this and enter a brighter future with no Reapers or internal conflicts. Ideally, the defeat of the Reapers should usher a golden age after centuries of building. Shepherd doesn't have to factor into this, I'm fine with him dying along with the trillions of others. Just give me a sign that everything turned out for the better.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thing is I don't find the ending as it is, sad. It isn't happy either. It's mind numbingly bland, void of all feeling whatsover. I wanted a sensible ending, what I got was some evil reaper kid that my Shepard believed for no sensible reason. I got this kid saying he was there to save me from himself-something a poster in another forum said so well and succinctly.

The kid is saying, "I am here to save you from me." And so, now the idea that he is there to save me by killing me begins to make sense.

In light of this nonsense I can't bring myself to feel anything. My brain has been so insulted that my heart won't engage in all this.

If I am sad, it's because I can't imagine anyone writing this and thinking it answered everything and that it was just awesome and bittersweet. There's nothing sweet about it and the bitter is overwhelming. And am I actually supposed to be happy that there's a burned up torso taking a breath and that Joker and my LI and some friends have found Nirvana, but I have no idea if they really have or not?

I don't for one minute believe that the only ending should be fullblown happy, because I see validity in a truly bittersweet one that is just gut-wrenching in what it means. But I wanted the chance for variety and I wanted it to logically follow what I had done along the way, not ignore choices I made. And I didn't want Shepard turned into some mindless robot who does what the evil kid says.

This.

[Getorex]

TheShogunOfHarlem wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thing is I don't find the ending as it is, sad. It isn't happy either. It's mind numbingly bland, void of all feeling whatsover. I wanted a sensible ending, what I got was some evil reaper kid that my Shepard believed for no sensible reason. I got this kid saying he was there to save me from himself-something a poster in another forum said so well and succinctly.

The kid is saying, "I am here to save you from me." And so, now the idea that he is there to save me by killing me begins to make sense.

In light of this nonsense I can't bring myself to feel anything. My brain has been so insulted that my heart won't engage in all this.

If I am sad, it's because I can't imagine anyone writing this and thinking it answered everything and that it was just awesome and bittersweet. There's nothing sweet about it and the bitter is overwhelming. And am I actually supposed to be happy that there's a burned up torso taking a breath and that Joker and my LI and some friends have found Nirvana, but I have no idea if they really have or not?

I don't for one minute believe that the only ending should be fullblown happy, because I see validity in a truly bittersweet one that is just gut-wrenching in what it means. But I wanted the chance for variety and I wanted it to logically follow what I had done along the way, not ignore choices I made. And I didn't want Shepard turned into some mindless robot who does what the evil kid says.

This.

Sorry, but there's no way I can EVER get passed "Synthetics will always turn on their creators" (bullcrap) and "I created synthetics to destroy organics so they wouldn't be destroyed by their own synthetics because...well, because MY synthetics are better at it than yours would be, so there!" and finallly, space magic: there is no such thing as a "new kind of DNA" that turns all organic life into some amalgam of synthetic and organic and all synthetics into the same thing.  Delivered by magic green light beam no less.  Magic.  Magic on a galactic scale and the way only a god could do, in a flash.  THAT ISN'T SCIFI.  That is crappy fantasy wizard magic crap.  Fleshing out the current outcomes doesn't fix green magic beams and impossible conversion of all organics into some magic syn-organic mush.  

[3DandBeyond]

Getorex wrote...

TheShogunOfHarlem wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thing is I don't find the ending as it is, sad. It isn't happy either. It's mind numbingly bland, void of all feeling whatsover. I wanted a sensible ending, what I got was some evil reaper kid that my Shepard believed for no sensible reason. I got this kid saying he was there to save me from himself-something a poster in another forum said so well and succinctly.

The kid is saying, "I am here to save you from me." And so, now the idea that he is there to save me by killing me begins to make sense.

In light of this nonsense I can't bring myself to feel anything. My brain has been so insulted that my heart won't engage in all this.

If I am sad, it's because I can't imagine anyone writing this and thinking it answered everything and that it was just awesome and bittersweet. There's nothing sweet about it and the bitter is overwhelming. And am I actually supposed to be happy that there's a burned up torso taking a breath and that Joker and my LI and some friends have found Nirvana, but I have no idea if they really have or not?

I don't for one minute believe that the only ending should be fullblown happy, because I see validity in a truly bittersweet one that is just gut-wrenching in what it means. But I wanted the chance for variety and I wanted it to logically follow what I had done along the way, not ignore choices I made. And I didn't want Shepard turned into some mindless robot who does what the evil kid says.

This.

Sorry, but there's no way I can EVER get passed "Synthetics will always turn on their creators" (bullcrap) and "I created synthetics to destroy organics so they wouldn't be destroyed by their own synthetics because...well, because MY synthetics are better at it than yours would be, so there!" and finallly, space magic: there is no such thing as a "new kind of DNA" that turns all organic life into some amalgam of synthetic and organic and all synthetics into the same thing.  Delivered by magic green light beam no less.  Magic.  Magic on a galactic scale and the way only a god could do, in a flash.  THAT ISN'T SCIFI.  That is crappy fantasy wizard magic crap.  Fleshing out the current outcomes doesn't fix green magic beams and impossible conversion of all organics into some magic syn-organic mush.  

I was being sarcastic.  Nothing the kid says makes sense.  I should have clarified that.  I meant that the kid is saying he's there to save the galaxy from himself, so I can see why the writers passed off all that other bullcrap as logical.  It's because they are dwelling in some kind of parallel universe where up is down, yes is no, and microwave is banana.

And to be clear, my Shepard in talking to the dying reaper on Rannoch told it that synthetics and organics are not doomed to always fight.  My Shepard also said at one point that you don't condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.

I don't believe any choice is a choice at all-they are all non-choices, equally disputed as any sort of resolution within ME3 alone.  Synthesis does seem to be the canon choice as it is presented, seemingly preferred but not by me.

Control is the realm of godhood and idiocy.  I don't want the reapers to exist, ever anymore.  I don't want to control them.  I want them removed from the consciousness of everyone in existence, never to return.  Control is the solution of fools-TIM, Saren, and so on-even the kid uses control and look at the good that did.

Synthesis it the alternate godhood, a fantasy that to be believed really sets space magic on an epic path of nonsense.  It is also eschewed by many who discuss it (Mordin for one, Shepard for another).  Mordin discusses it when talking about what he discovered about the Collectors and that they can't be fixed.  Soul-replace by tech.  Shepard somewhat alludes to it when talking to EDI about what life is-it's more than survival.  Sovereign, through Saren discusses it as the ultimate goal, echoing what the kid says about it-the end of evolution.  Further, it is also deciding for everyone else what they will become.  It is the death of choice and self-determination, when Shepard may have learned much about self-determination within ME3 alone.  Certain people within the ME universe attempted synthesis of a sort and it always had abhorrent results-Archer in Project Overlord, TIM and the Cerberus Husks, the reapers themselves.

Destroy is one other form of godhood, the ultimate decision of who lives and dies.  Everyone was in the fight together.  Everyone's fate linked to one standing at their side.  Equals in the goal of survival, until they weren't.  It's deciding who's expendable and making that subservient to expediency.  It's genocide or fratricide. While sometimes difficult decisions must be made, we have no sense of urgency and no debate.

They are all non-choices based upon the faulty or deliberately misleading logic of a demented "god".  The game was intended to be played from Shepard's point of view and Shepard would not ever go along with any of this.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 mai 2012 - 08:53 .

[estebanus]

Because it's not hipster enough to have a happy ending.

[Getorex]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Getorex wrote...

TheShogunOfHarlem wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thing is I don't find the ending as it is, sad. It isn't happy either. It's mind numbingly bland, void of all feeling whatsover. I wanted a sensible ending, what I got was some evil reaper kid that my Shepard believed for no sensible reason. I got this kid saying he was there to save me from himself-something a poster in another forum said so well and succinctly.

The kid is saying, "I am here to save you from me." And so, now the idea that he is there to save me by killing me begins to make sense.

In light of this nonsense I can't bring myself to feel anything. My brain has been so insulted that my heart won't engage in all this.

If I am sad, it's because I can't imagine anyone writing this and thinking it answered everything and that it was just awesome and bittersweet. There's nothing sweet about it and the bitter is overwhelming. And am I actually supposed to be happy that there's a burned up torso taking a breath and that Joker and my LI and some friends have found Nirvana, but I have no idea if they really have or not?

I don't for one minute believe that the only ending should be fullblown happy, because I see validity in a truly bittersweet one that is just gut-wrenching in what it means. But I wanted the chance for variety and I wanted it to logically follow what I had done along the way, not ignore choices I made. And I didn't want Shepard turned into some mindless robot who does what the evil kid says.

This.

Sorry, but there's no way I can EVER get passed "Synthetics will always turn on their creators" (bullcrap) and "I created synthetics to destroy organics so they wouldn't be destroyed by their own synthetics because...well, because MY synthetics are better at it than yours would be, so there!" and finallly, space magic: there is no such thing as a "new kind of DNA" that turns all organic life into some amalgam of synthetic and organic and all synthetics into the same thing.  Delivered by magic green light beam no less.  Magic.  Magic on a galactic scale and the way only a god could do, in a flash.  THAT ISN'T SCIFI.  That is crappy fantasy wizard magic crap.  Fleshing out the current outcomes doesn't fix green magic beams and impossible conversion of all organics into some magic syn-organic mush.  

I was being sarcastic.  Nothing the kid says makes sense.  I should have clarified that.  I meant that the kid is saying he's there to save the galaxy from himself, so I can see why the writers passed off all that other bullcrap as logical.  It's because they are dwelling in some kind of parallel universe where up is down, yes is no, and microwave is banana.

And to be clear, my Shepard in talking to the dying reaper on Rannoch told it that synthetics and organics are not doomed to always fight.  My Shepard also said at one point that you don't condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.

I don't believe any choice is a choice at all-they are all non-choices, equally disputed as any sort of resolution within ME3 alone.  Synthesis does seem to be the canon choice as it is presented, seemingly preferred but not by me.

Control is the realm of godhood and idiocy.  I don't want the reapers to exist, ever anymore.  I don't want to control them.  I want them removed from the consciousness of everyone in existence, never to return.  Control is the solution of fools-TIM, Saren, and so on-even the kid uses control and look at the good that did.

Synthesis it the alternate godhood, a fantasy that to be believed really sets space magic on an epic path of nonsense.  It is also eschewed by many who discuss it (Mordin for one, Shepard for another).  Mordin discusses it when talking about what he discovered about the Collectors and that they can't be fixed.  Soul-replace by tech.  Shepard somewhat alludes to it when talking to EDI about what life is-it's more than survival.  Sovereign, through Saren discusses it as the ultimate goal, echoing what the kid says about it-the end of evolution.  Further, it is also deciding for everyone else what they will become.  It is the death of choice and self-determination, when Shepard may have learned much about self-determination within ME3 alone.  Certain people within the ME universe attempted synthesis of a sort and it always had abhorrent results-Archer in Project Overlord, TIM and the Cerberus Husks, the reapers themselves.

Destroy is one other form of godhood, the ultimate decision of who lives and dies.  Everyone was in the fight together.  Everyone's fate linked to one standing at their side.  Equals in the goal of survival, until they weren't.  It's deciding who's expendable and making that subservient to expediency.  It's genocide or fratricide. While sometimes difficult decisions must be made, we have no sense of urgency and no debate.

They are all non-choices based upon the faulty or deliberately misleading logic of a demented "god".  The game was intended to be played from Shepard's point of view and Shepard would not ever go along with any of this.

I wasn't jumping your sh*t or anything, I was just commenting to the idea that the EC can make a souffle out of the treacle they gave us.  Uh-uh.  There are NO ingredients in the current ending that can lead in any universe, infused with space magic or not, to make a souffle.  You CAN generate a nice, full chamberpot from what there is to work with but I wouldn't call that a souffle even if you do get THAT to rise.

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...
I was being sarcastic.  Nothing the kid says makes sense.  I should have clarified that.  I meant that the kid is saying he's there to save the galaxy from himself, so I can see why the writers passed off all that other bullcrap as logical.  It's because they are dwelling in some kind of parallel universe where up is down, yes is no, and microwave is banana.

And to be clear, my Shepard in talking to the dying reaper on Rannoch told it that synthetics and organics are not doomed to always fight.  My Shepard also said at one point that you don't condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.

I don't believe any choice is a choice at all-they are all non-choices, equally disputed as any sort of resolution within ME3 alone.  Synthesis does seem to be the canon choice as it is presented, seemingly preferred but not by me.

Control is the realm of godhood and idiocy.  I don't want the reapers to exist, ever anymore.  I don't want to control them.  I want them removed from the consciousness of everyone in existence, never to return.  Control is the solution of fools-TIM, Saren, and so on-even the kid uses control and look at the good that did.

Synthesis it the alternate godhood, a fantasy that to be believed really sets space magic on an epic path of nonsense.  It is also eschewed by many who discuss it (Mordin for one, Shepard for another).  Mordin discusses it when talking about what he discovered about the Collectors and that they can't be fixed.  Soul-replace by tech.  Shepard somewhat alludes to it when talking to EDI about what life is-it's more than survival.  Sovereign, through Saren discusses it as the ultimate goal, echoing what the kid says about it-the end of evolution.  Further, it is also deciding for everyone else what they will become.  It is the death of choice and self-determination, when Shepard may have learned much about self-determination within ME3 alone.  Certain people within the ME universe attempted synthesis of a sort and it always had abhorrent results-Archer in Project Overlord, TIM and the Cerberus Husks, the reapers themselves.

Destroy is one other form of godhood, the ultimate decision of who lives and dies.  Everyone was in the fight together.  Everyone's fate linked to one standing at their side.  Equals in the goal of survival, until they weren't.  It's deciding who's expendable and making that subservient to expediency.  It's genocide or fratricide. While sometimes difficult decisions must be made, we have no sense of urgency and no debate.

They are all non-choices based upon the faulty or deliberately misleading logic of a demented "god".  The game was intended to be played from Shepard's point of view and Shepard would not ever go along with any of this.

This post deserves a standing ovation

[Getorex]

iakus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
I was being sarcastic.  Nothing the kid says makes sense.  I should have clarified that.  I meant that the kid is saying he's there to save the galaxy from himself, so I can see why the writers passed off all that other bullcrap as logical.  It's because they are dwelling in some kind of parallel universe where up is down, yes is no, and microwave is banana.

And to be clear, my Shepard in talking to the dying reaper on Rannoch told it that synthetics and organics are not doomed to always fight.  My Shepard also said at one point that you don't condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.

I don't believe any choice is a choice at all-they are all non-choices, equally disputed as any sort of resolution within ME3 alone.  Synthesis does seem to be the canon choice as it is presented, seemingly preferred but not by me.

Control is the realm of godhood and idiocy.  I don't want the reapers to exist, ever anymore.  I don't want to control them.  I want them removed from the consciousness of everyone in existence, never to return.  Control is the solution of fools-TIM, Saren, and so on-even the kid uses control and look at the good that did.

Synthesis it the alternate godhood, a fantasy that to be believed really sets space magic on an epic path of nonsense.  It is also eschewed by many who discuss it (Mordin for one, Shepard for another).  Mordin discusses it when talking about what he discovered about the Collectors and that they can't be fixed.  Soul-replace by tech.  Shepard somewhat alludes to it when talking to EDI about what life is-it's more than survival.  Sovereign, through Saren discusses it as the ultimate goal, echoing what the kid says about it-the end of evolution.  Further, it is also deciding for everyone else what they will become.  It is the death of choice and self-determination, when Shepard may have learned much about self-determination within ME3 alone.  Certain people within the ME universe attempted synthesis of a sort and it always had abhorrent results-Archer in Project Overlord, TIM and the Cerberus Husks, the reapers themselves.

Destroy is one other form of godhood, the ultimate decision of who lives and dies.  Everyone was in the fight together.  Everyone's fate linked to one standing at their side.  Equals in the goal of survival, until they weren't.  It's deciding who's expendable and making that subservient to expediency.  It's genocide or fratricide. While sometimes difficult decisions must be made, we have no sense of urgency and no debate.

They are all non-choices based upon the faulty or deliberately misleading logic of a demented "god".  The game was intended to be played from Shepard's point of view and Shepard would not ever go along with any of this.

This post deserves a standing ovation

I read it again in response to your post.  I agree.  I am now standing and ovating.  

Very well said and cleanly gets to why I found destroy so abhorrent AND why the mishmash of magic - putting organics and synthetics in a blender and hitting "puree" - sucked hard.  Control...control sucked too for its own logic fail.

Finally, I don't like "the 'hero' has to die for the sake of...well...bittersweetness."  What nonsense.  Gratuitous and in no way organically flows from ANY of the so-called "options".  They are a divide by zero error in graphical form.

[3DandBeyond]

I don't think it should be a given that a hero has to die for anything. It doesn't make the hero less of a one because he lives. In fact, he can then become the rallying point for people to live on in the face of unprecedented devastation. In fact, within a war those fighting all strive for heroics (in fiction such as this and often in real life). After a war is almost when you need living heroes the most. Altruism can get thrown out the window very quickly when people are fighting over a crust of bread.  Live heroes can bring back hope, they can inspire, and they can say to people who may have lost all that survival is possible.

I do not wish for dead heroes-I so appreciate the sacrifice, but I like my heroes alive, TYVM.

In the context of sound business decisions, name 10 movies that were blockbusters with heroes that died in the end. Name 10 where the hero lived amidst insurmountable odds. Name 1 where the hero survived and it disappointed you that the hero lived or where you left and said, "gee, I wish that had been sadder at the end" or "gee, I wish that had been more artistically and full of angst and more pseudo-intellectual because that would have been so heartwarming."

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 mai 2012 - 10:05 .

[Reorte]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I don't think it should be a given that a hero has to die for anything. It doesn't make the hero less of a one because he lives. In fact, he can then become the rallying point for people to live on in the face of unprecedented devastation. In fact, within a war those fighting all strive for heroics (in fiction such as this and often in real life). After a war is almost when you need living heroes the most. Altruism can get thrown out the window very quickly when people are fighting over a crust of bread.  I do not wish for dead heroes-I so appreciate the sacrifice, but I like my heroes alive, TYVM.

The hero dying is simply a literary cliche. If the hero is a key person in the conflict then in reality his death, no matter the circumstances, is going to change nothing at best and be a disaster at worst. It's not as if a war is likely to be ended by a hero having to make a heroic sacrifice, although on a smaller scale it can happen (someone laying down their life to save their team). Dead heros are just cheap emotional plays.

[CuriousArtemis]

I do like happy endings, but I don't view the ME series as blockbuster material. Sometimes Great Works can become blockbusters, though, and I think that's been the case.

Some of the most powerful films end with the hero's death. They are gut-wrenching, memorable, and worth commemorating:

Gladiator
The Lord of the Rings (Frodo)
Big Fish
Pan's Labyrinth

A few of my favorite films