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[3DandBeyond]

Reorte wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I don't think it should be a given that a hero has to die for anything. It doesn't make the hero less of a one because he lives. In fact, he can then become the rallying point for people to live on in the face of unprecedented devastation. In fact, within a war those fighting all strive for heroics (in fiction such as this and often in real life). After a war is almost when you need living heroes the most. Altruism can get thrown out the window very quickly when people are fighting over a crust of bread.  I do not wish for dead heroes-I so appreciate the sacrifice, but I like my heroes alive, TYVM.

The hero dying is simply a literary cliche. If the hero is a key person in the conflict then in reality his death, no matter the circumstances, is going to change nothing at best and be a disaster at worst. It's not as if a war is likely to be ended by a hero having to make a heroic sacrifice, although on a smaller scale it can happen (someone laying down their life to save their team). Dead heros are just cheap emotional plays.

Exactly.  It's used to draw out emotion when the story in and of itself is not enough to do so.  Done right and tastefully it gives one Mordin who met his death not in a vacuum, but in the realization that what he had helped create he needed now to set right.  It gave him redemption-a recurring theme throughout these games.  There's no redemption in Shepard's gratuitous death (forced suicide), in fact there's the opposite.  Shepard dies and launches some horrific imposed choice on all the galaxy.  That is anti-redemptive.  No hero there.

[3DandBeyond]

motomotogirl wrote...

I do like happy endings, but I don't view the ME series as blockbuster material. Sometimes Great Works can become blockbusters, though, and I think that's been the case.

Some of the most powerful films end with the hero's death. They are gut-wrenching, memorable, and worth commemorating:

Gladiator
The Lord of the Rings (Frodo)
Big Fish
Pan's Labyrinth

A few of my favorite films

But they are true sacrifices and not gratuitous imposed death without cause or reason.  And I was only pointing to blockbuster movies because for a great many people ME has garnered that same type of following.  ME isn't a movie, but there are those that would put it on a par with LOTR (the others not so much).  I am also somewhat referring to the idea that this was artistic vision-great for an artist who cares little about selling his craft, but not for a business model.

[Getorex]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I don't think it should be a given that a hero has to die for anything. It doesn't make the hero less of a one because he lives. In fact, he can then become the rallying point for people to live on in the face of unprecedented devastation. In fact, within a war those fighting all strive for heroics (in fiction such as this and often in real life). After a war is almost when you need living heroes the most. Altruism can get thrown out the window very quickly when people are fighting over a crust of bread.  I do not wish for dead heroes-I so appreciate the sacrifice, but I like my heroes alive, TYVM.

In the context of sound business decisions, name 10 movies that were blockbusters with heroes that died in the end. Name 10 where the hero lived amidst insurmountable odds. Name 1 where the hero survived and it disappointed you that the hero lived or where you left and said, "gee, I wish that had been sadder at the end" or "gee, I wish that had been more artistically and full of angst and more pseudo-intellectual because that would have been so heartwarming."

I can think of three movies with A hero kicking the bucket at the end BUT it worked and was good: Saving Private Ryan (Capt bleeds out) and...another WWII movie, real good one but the name escapes me...ONE of the main heroes is running down railroad tracks trying to hop onto the train to escape with everyone else but he gets shot up by the Germans...Steve McQueen?  And finally, Platoon.  Now, ME3 is in NO WAY comparable, NOWHERE NEAR as good as these movies which, afterall, were derived from real events rather than made up sh*t.  All other movies where the hero survives works as well: Saving Private Ryan (Ryan, a hero, survives), Platoon (bad guy gets shot and the good guy from whom's narrative the movie derives survives).  I would be hard pressed to find 10.  I cannot think of ANY movie EVER where I wished the hero/protagonist had died.  I can think of innumerable movies that were just OK to really good where the hero SEEMS to die but it is left ambiguous and, in fact, easily allows for sequels that include the hero.  Then there are numerous losers where they depict the hero dying but magically bring 'em back for more in a grab for $$ (Alien series where Sigourney Weaver's character KEEPS COMING BACK!  WTF!?). 

Never ever ever has there been a movie where you go, "Damnit, the hero SHOULD have died!  It would be SO muc better and even emo bittersweet if the hero got shellacked".  Doesn't happen.  Ever.

Modifié par Getorex, 26 mai 2012 - 10:17 .

[ObserverStatus]

I wanted there to be an ending in which Shepard's fleet is forced to sacrifice itself to destroy the reapers by flying into the Charon Mass Relay, leaving Dalatrass Linron free to start a new Salarian led council that would rule the galaxy for 1000 years.

[Getorex]

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Piszi wrote...

I think the ending of ME is kinda happy. Just think for a moment, you saved trillions of lives in the galaxy icluding Earth and some of your crew. You gave a second chance for everyone. So isn't this happy?
Ok I understand those who want Shep to survive the war and I think this should be at least one option if you were effective but it isn't so you need to finde some happiness in what you got.

I think the ending is kind of happy if you destroy the Reapers and guarantee that the cycle will not repeat. That element feels like victory.

Galactic civilization utterly collapsing? Not so much. Ushering in a galactic dark age is a bit of a downer, to be honest. I'd compare the existing ending to the ending of The Road. There is a glimmer of hope, but still dark as f--k.

Personally I'd rather Shepard and every soul on the Normandy die than galactic civilization collapse. I find the latter more depressing. At the least the former is worth it, if the sacrifice saves civilization.

Yes but the Road kept true to it's atmosphere, Mass Effect 3 Did not.

Yes, "Destroy" is so hopey.  Ignore the MASSIVE genocide involved.  Ignore the stabbing in the back of you staunch allies and friends (the geth and EDI and ANY other unknown AI/synthetic that may be out there).  No cost is too big to bear so long as it isn't MY personal peeps not bearing it.  I get to choose what race, EN MASS, gets wiped out.  ME.  Shepard, the GOD.  Feels good being god and killing stuff in bulk unlike any bulk ever before in history baby!

[Getorex]

Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...

because its the apex of the franchise and should end on a bitter-sour note.
with galatic extinction and major conflict just waiting to spill over after the reaper threat.there is no way a decent "happy ending" could be achieved.least in my mind

Yes.  In YOUR mind.  Not mine, not many others.  Clearly then, it IS possible or it wouldn't be there in so many minds...minds of people who reject the ABSOLUTE illogic of the current nonsense magic-infused ending.

[Getorex]

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Piszi wrote...

I think the ending of ME is kinda happy. Just think for a moment, you saved trillions of lives in the galaxy icluding Earth and some of your crew. You gave a second chance for everyone. So isn't this happy?
Ok I understand those who want Shep to survive the war and I think this should be at least one option if you were effective but it isn't so you need to finde some happiness in what you got.

I think the ending is kind of happy if you destroy the Reapers and guarantee that the cycle will not repeat. That element feels like victory.

Galactic civilization utterly collapsing? Not so much. Ushering in a galactic dark age is a bit of a downer, to be honest. I'd compare the existing ending to the ending of The Road. There is a glimmer of hope, but still dark as f--k.

Personally I'd rather Shepard and every soul on the Normandy die than galactic civilization collapse. I find the latter more depressing. At the least the former is worth it, if the sacrifice saves civilization.

Yes but the Road kept true to it's atmosphere, Mass Effect 3 Did not.

Yes, "Destroy" is so hopey.  Ignore the MASSIVE genocide involved.  Ignore the stabbing in the back of you staunch allies and friends (the geth and EDI and ANY other unknown AI/synthetic that may be out there).  No cost is too big to bear so long as it isn't MY personal peeps not bearing it.  I get to choose what race, EN MASS, gets wiped out.  ME.  Shepard, the GOD.  Feels good being god and killing stuff in bulk unlike any bulk ever before in history baby!

This Also, Your Three Choices really are:

Control: Control the Reapers, Control The Universe for good or ill.

Synthesis: Alter the Universe, So it's "perfect" but that takes away the point of life entirely. Completely morally wrong. The Reapers still exist but have no purpose.

Destroy: Destroy Technology that will only come back, in short doing nothing. But Destroying the Reapers, is it worth it?

Well, yeah...there is that.  Surely the quarians have blueprints and specs on their geth laying around.  Just build them again and let it come and be nice this time.  The design specs for EDI are still around, remake her. 

There, a silly genocide, gratuitous, coming to nothing because the tech is still there to remake them all.  Silly toddler.

Actually, I just realized the situation is sillier (and possibly better)!  Here's MY Shepard ending with "Destroy".  He doesn't tell the toddler what his choice is, he just whips out his cell phone and makes a conference call to geth and to EDI:  "Guys, I need you to trust me and do exactly what I tell you OK?  Please?  OK, I need you all to upload a copy of yourselves to nonvolatile storage and then power down your bodies.  I know, I know, odd request, especially right now in the middle of a fight but you really need to trust me on this kay?  Thanks.  So, you'll do it?  Upload a backup copy of yourselves into storage and power down?  Good, good.  How long will it take?  Ok, I can give you 30 minutes.  Talk to you all later.  And thanks guys."

Shepard hangs up and looks at the kid and acts like he's thinking things over.  Wastes 30 minutes pretending to ponder, then goes for "Destroy" but FROM A SAFE DISTANCE.  That's right, he pulls out his RIFLE and gets WAY back and blows the red gizmo away.  Boom!  Red explosions.  The reapers all croak.  Shepard then calls the quarians and asks them to reboot the geth (or whatever the equivalent is) and calls Joker and tells him to reboot EDI.  

Ta-da!  Reapers destroyed and all the synthetic lives saved (no geth genocide and no murder of EDI).  Done and done.  The end.

Modifié par Getorex, 26 mai 2012 - 11:12 .

[3DandBeyond]

Getorex wrote...

Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...

because its the apex of the franchise and should end on a bitter-sour note.
with galatic extinction and major conflict just waiting to spill over after the reaper threat.there is no way a decent "happy ending" could be achieved.least in my mind

Yes.  In YOUR mind.  Not mine, not many others.  Clearly then, it IS possible or it wouldn't be there in so many minds...minds of people who reject the ABSOLUTE illogic of the current nonsense magic-infused ending.

There are many ways to achieve a happy ending and without it seeming cheap or forced.  But Bioware really had to force cheap, depressing, and demoralizing upon all of us.  And that is exactly what you want to remember about a game series.

It would have been simple and many people have shown how to do it.  And had it been done the way many have said, no one would have been forced into a bespoke ending (hmm, where have I heard that one before), you could have the horribly dreary depressing ending you want.  But we were forced to accept crap which is now being promoted as bittersweet that you are correctly defining as bittersour and we're being told it's the only possible ending?  Uh, but no....

I could make the real case that the Shepard gasps ending is a truly gratuitous attempt at including a "happy" ending.  I don't see it as that because it's unformed garbage (rhymes with triage).  It's not happy, it's just another big pile of stuff that doesn't fit with anything else.

Again, the kid is saying "I will save you from me" and "I have been killing you to save you".  This speaks of intellect and logic that should be followed by Shepard killing him/herself.  Well, actually if Shepard believed that then give me the gun and I'll kill Shepard.  Demoralizing, depressing, illogical, intellectually empty, emotionally empty.  Yes, that's how I like a game or any story to end.  Warms my heart.

[Iakus]

Getorex wrote...

I can think of three movies with A hero kicking the bucket at the end BUT it worked and was good: Saving Private Ryan (Capt bleeds out) and...another WWII movie, real good one but the name escapes me...ONE of the main heroes is running down railroad tracks trying to hop onto the train to escape with everyone else but he gets shot up by the Germans...Steve McQueen?  And finally, Platoon.  Now, ME3 is in NO WAY comparable, NOWHERE NEAR as good as these movies which, afterall, were derived from real events rather than made up sh*t.  All other movies where the hero survives works as well: Saving Private Ryan (Ryan, a hero, survives), Platoon (bad guy gets shot and the good guy from whom's narrative the movie derives survives).  I would be hard pressed to find 10.  I cannot think of ANY movie EVER where I wished the hero/protagonist had died.  I can think of innumerable movies that were just OK to really good where the hero SEEMS to die but it is left ambiguous and, in fact, easily allows for sequels that include the hero.  Then there are numerous losers where they depict the hero dying but magically bring 'em back for more in a grab for $$ (Alien series where Sigourney Weaver's character KEEPS COMING BACK!  WTF!?). 

Never ever ever has there been a movie where you go, "Damnit, the hero SHOULD have died!  It would be SO muc better and even emo bittersweet if the hero got shellacked".  Doesn't happen.  Ever.

Von Ryan's Express.  Starring Frank Sinatra.  Personally I found that to be kind of a downer ending, and the novel the film was based on actually has a happier ending (apparantly for the movie it was decided Ryan had to die as atonement for killing an unarmed civilian)

As for the Alien series, nothing beats the second one.  Despite all the horror RIpley witnessed, she managed to survive and get Newt out as well.  She faced the worst horrors imaginable, and triumphed

It was best illustrated by the final scene.   Ripley, sleeping peacefully in her cryo pod.  As opposed to the rest of the movie, where she was plagued by nightmares.

[3DandBeyond]

Getorex wrote...

Well, yeah...there is that.  Surely the quarians have blueprints and specs on their geth laying around.  Just build them again and let it come and be nice this time.  The design specs for EDI are still around, remake her. 

There, a silly genocide, gratuitous, coming to nothing because the tech is still there to remake them all.  Silly toddler.

Well not really.  All tech is based upon reaper tech or so it is said by the truthful reapers (Sovereign I believe).  Beyond that there were the reaper upgrades that Legion had to give his life for to help to assimilate them.  This cannot be replicated.  The geth may self-determine, but then no one knows what gave them the spark of life initially-it could have been some random glitch in their programming that can never happen again.  So, they may end up being overly intelligent servants once again.  And they most certainly won't be able to do some of the things they have been doing to help the Quarians.

As far as EDI goes, she too may have been the result of environment and genetics so to speak.  The AI within her that made her uh her may well be gone.  The parts exist but her personality was formed by a relationship with Joker, the examples and mentoring of Shepard and her observance of just what the crew did.  That is all lost-her spark may well also be lost for good and she might once again become merely an overly intelligent Normandy controller.

It boils down to all of us being the sum total of our experiences and our genetics.  The same would be true of them.

And it wasn't the geth that were being not nice.  They merely had developed some AI capability and the Quarians began to shut them off, to kill them.  They acted in self-defense and drove the Quarians away and then stopped chasing them.  But the reapers came and promised the heretics things that changed them.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 mai 2012 - 11:08 .

[Iakus]

Getorex wrote...

Well, yeah...there is that.  Surely the quarians have blueprints and specs on their geth laying around.  Just build them again and let it come and be nice this time.  The design specs for EDI are still around, remake her. 

There, a silly genocide, gratuitous, coming to nothing because the tech is still there to remake them all.  Silly toddler.

Quantum bluebox technology pretty much ensures that AI personalities are entirely unique.  Dead EDI=there will never be another EDI again.  Any more than you could perfectly remake a human via cloning.

[jeweledleah]

motomotogirl wrote...

I do like happy endings, but I don't view the ME series as blockbuster material. Sometimes Great Works can become blockbusters, though, and I think that's been the case.

Some of the most powerful films end with the hero's death. They are gut-wrenching, memorable, and worth commemorating:

Gladiator
The Lord of the Rings (Frodo)
Big Fish
Pan's Labyrinth

A few of my favorite films

Frodo didn't die, he left with last of the elves. and arguably true hero of the story - Sam?  got married.
Pan's Labirinth - the girl in real life may have died, but the whole point of it was that she passed all the tests and finaly was able to rejoin her parents in faery kingdom as the princess again, so in a way, it was a very happy ending.  becasue she finaly found her way home.
Gladiator I found to be a terrible movie and honestly? I wanted him to die at the end.  but I dislike Russel Crowe so there's that.
Big fish practicaly starts off with a premise of a son trying to reconsile with his dying father and the happy ending of that movie is due to them finaly understanding each other.  from the very beginning, you knew that father was dying.

oh and.  if Mass Effect was a franchise where you don't get to shape the story.  at all.  then having just one kind of ending would have been fine.  but Mass Effect is not a movie.  the story might be framed but we're supposed to shape it in the end.  have our own TYPE of story.  so I wish people would stop comparing mass Effect to movies and non interactive novels.

compare it to interactive novels,  chose your own adventure types.  and those btw, have a variety of endings, usualy from very bitter to pretty sweet for quite a few.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 26 mai 2012 - 11:38 .

[Slayer299]

Getorex wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I don't think it should be a given that a hero has to die for anything. It doesn't make the hero less of a one because he lives. In fact, he can then become the rallying point for people to live on in the face of unprecedented devastation. In fact, within a war those fighting all strive for heroics (in fiction such as this and often in real life). After a war is almost when you need living heroes the most. Altruism can get thrown out the window very quickly when people are fighting over a crust of bread.  I do not wish for dead heroes-I so appreciate the sacrifice, but I like my heroes alive, TYVM.

In the context of sound business decisions, name 10 movies that were blockbusters with heroes that died in the end. Name 10 where the hero lived amidst insurmountable odds. Name 1 where the hero survived and it disappointed you that the hero lived or where you left and said, "gee, I wish that had been sadder at the end" or "gee, I wish that had been more artistically and full of angst and more pseudo-intellectual because that would have been so heartwarming."

I can think of three movies with A hero kicking the bucket at the end BUT it worked and was good: Saving Private Ryan (Capt bleeds out) and...another WWII movie, real good one but the name escapes me...ONE of the main heroes is running down railroad tracks trying to hop onto the train to escape with everyone else but he gets shot up by the Germans...Steve McQueen?  And finally, Platoon.  Now, ME3 is in NO WAY comparable, NOWHERE NEAR as good as these movies which, afterall, were derived from real events rather than made up sh*t.  All other movies where the hero survives works as well: Saving Private Ryan (Ryan, a hero, survives), Platoon (bad guy gets shot and the good guy from whom's narrative the movie derives survives).  I would be hard pressed to find 10.  I cannot think of ANY movie EVER where I wished the hero/protagonist had died.  I can think of innumerable movies that were just OK to really good where the hero SEEMS to die but it is left ambiguous and, in fact, easily allows for sequels that include the hero.  Then there are numerous losers where they depict the hero dying but magically bring 'em back for more in a grab for $$ (Alien series where Sigourney Weaver's character KEEPS COMING BACK!  WTF!?). 

Never ever ever has there been a movie where you go, "Damnit, the hero SHOULD have died!  It would be SO muc better and even emo bittersweet if the hero got shellacked".  Doesn't happen.  Ever.

The Steve McQueen movie you are thinking of is "Von Ryan's Express" and that is a good example, also "The Dirty Dozen", which in that case it really fit the story unlike ME3 where it just seemed to be Shepard dying was 'because we want to' and ignoring the chioces made upto that point.

[Reorte]

With all these films where some main character dies at the end we're talking about relatively small-scale actions, not the main figures in a war.

[3DandBeyond]

My main point in bringing the idea of the blockbuster, hero lives movie up, was to show that you can do things well with a character living at the end-surviving against all odds. So what if it's cliche. Some of the best stories are cliches. Why? Because they work. You can't tell me that everything in ME was original and did not echo thoughts that had come before or that were in other blockbuster movies. Everything old is new again-people repeat themes (not complete stories), even repeat technical terms for things that do not exist in SciFi.

Stephen King's books have often been based on episodes of the Twilight Zone, but people still love to read them.

And I would insist that in an all out war for the preservation of the species, the "hero must die" theme is cliche, too. That's why especially here I see it as gratuitous. The point is I don't want any ending to be gratuitous-the endings were supposed to be earned. In fact, the idea of a choice at the end is so counter to what I figured would happen-I envisioned that you just keep going and things happen, not some overriding choice, but as Casey Hudson put it and now forgets, it's the build up of all the choices made coming to a head.

But, again neither ending precludes the other. I can accept both and all the gray areas in between. What we have now is neither or some horrific attempt at putting both in one ending, in all 3, count 'em, 3 choices.