419 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Sure, but then it's hard to mix "happy ending" with "hard choices", since the two contradict each other. Outside of Heavy Rain, I've yet to see a game, especially a Bioware game, capable of combining hard choices and a happy ending. What it comes down to is: if you want Shepard to survive, what would you (as a player) be willing to trade to make it happen? The game needs to avoid validating any particular path as the "right" one, which isn't really possible if there's a perfect playthrough. It's the same basic design flaw behind the suicide mission from ME2.

Part of it is the definition of a "happy ending"  Ther's teh "rainbows and unicorns" term that gets tossed around all to often.  Then there's the harder to define "What ending makes me, the palyer happy?"  For a lot of people, Shepard surviving is one ingredient in that "what makes me happy" ending.

And yeah, what one is willing to trade for Shepard to survive is a bit of an open question.  I even started a poll asking about it.

I do think that DAO's ending handled it best, as far as I can tell.  There are four differnt basic outcomes with numerous smaller details surrounding each one.  And the "perfect" ending may be different for differnt people, or even the same person with different playthroughs.  But really, none of the endings are destinied for perfection once Riordan dies...

[Red Panda]

iakus wrote...

Part of it is the definition of a "happy ending"  Ther's teh "rainbows and unicorns" term that gets tossed around all to often.  Then there's the harder to define "What ending makes me, the palyer happy?"  For a lot of people, Shepard surviving is one ingredient in that "what makes me happy" ending.

And yeah, what one is willing to trade for Shepard to survive is a bit of an open question.  I even started a poll asking about it.

I do think that DAO's ending handled it best, as far as I can tell.  There are four differnt basic outcomes with numerous smaller details surrounding each one.  And the "perfect" ending may be different for differnt people, or even the same person with different playthroughs.  But really, none of the endings are destinied for perfection once Riordan dies...

Riordan was a plot device, nothing more.

[Red Panda]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Riordan was a plot device, nothing more.

Riordan reminds me of Nihlus that way.

Yes.

[Iakus]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Riordan was a plot device, nothing more.

Point being, the plot device couldn't magically fix things so the ending is perfect 

[RocketManSR2]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a happy ending. I know that what someone considers "happy" is a matter of opinion. I remember the rather "spirited" topics between the people who wanted their idea of a happy ending and those who wanted a more realistic, gritty ending. Simply defeating the Reapers is happy enough for some, but others like me want a reunion with the crew and Shepard's LI. The first and second games had that, but apparently it became taboo somewhere between 2 & 3. If the EC fixes that for me, I'm back on board. Am I a shallow person? Maybe, but I like what I like.

[Bluko]

Nothing should be wrong with a "good" ending provided there is an alternative of a "bad" ending. In this regard at least Mass Effect 2 got it right. It's also nice that you do have an actual choice at the end. Granted it's limited, but at the end of ME3 you really have no choice. You just do what you're told which is pretty depressing as the whole appeal of "heroes" is that they aren't simple mindless drones that give into other's demands. In Mass Effect 2 you have varying levels of success. In ME3 you really don't. No matter how much time you spend preparing or not you basically get the same results. There is no consequence for rushing through the game. Which is odd since in ME2 doing so will get almost everyone killed or possibly result in what is essentially a "Game Over" cinematic.


I dunno what's wrong with the people who wrote ME3, but they are clearly very detached from the actual fanbase to think they handled ME3 well. It seems more like they've been creating this story for themselves and not us anymore. Also from what I can tell it looks like they had this ending planned all along. While I understand the intent to leave room for the possibility of expansions... doing this with ME3 was really really really dumb. Most of us were under the impression that ME3 would deliver a definitive ending. To leave everything up in the air like this just so they could do a DLC later was just plain arrogance.

Oh well I can only hope maybe Bioware/EA has finally learned that always relying on DLC probably isn't a good idea. Well if they don't I dunno how they expect people are going to even want to buy their games anymore. This whole thing blew up in their faces pretty bad. But eh kind of serves them right for not really taking the time to develop the game properly or at the very least for misleading everyone for a seemingly quick cash-in.

[3DandBeyond]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a happy ending. I know that what someone considers "happy" is a matter of opinion. I remember the rather "spirited" topics between the people who wanted their idea of a happy ending and those who wanted a more realistic, gritty ending. Simply defeating the Reapers is happy enough for some, but others like me want a reunion with the crew and Shepard's LI. The first and second games had that, but apparently it became taboo somewhere between 2 & 3. If the EC fixes that for me, I'm back on board. Am I a shallow person? Maybe, but I like what I like.

I just want to know what perversity is it that says the only authentic ending is a sad soul-crushing one?  Like you I want what we generally think of as happy in real life.  I don't know too many people that run around in real life hoping today's the day they get to have that sadly forever after ending.  Truth is, we get enough sad along the way.  In my games, if not my other forms of entertainment, I want happy or the possibility of it.

[RocketManSR2]

Bluko wrote...

I dunno what's wrong with the people who wrote ME3, but they are clearly very detached from the actual fanbase to think they handled ME3 well. It seems more like they've been creating this story for themselves and not us anymore. Also from what I can tell it looks like they had this ending planned all along. While I understand the intent to leave room for the possibility of expansions... doing this with ME3 was really really really dumb. Most of us were under the impression that ME3 would deliver a definitive ending. To leave everything up in the air like this just so they could do a DLC later was just plain arrogance.

I don't have any issue with BioWare creating ME3 to their own tastes and wants. It's their game and they've shown they love the characters and the galaxy in ME as much as we do. In the first and second games, BioWare let us kick ass and reunite with the characters we love. How that suddenly became a no-no between 2 and 3 I'll never know.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 28 mai 2012 - 04:45 .

[3DandBeyond]

RocketManSR2 wrote...


I don't have any issue with BioWare creating ME3 to their own tastes and wants. It's their game and they've shown they love the characters and the galaxy in ME as much as we do. In the first and second games, BioWare let us kick ass and reunite with the characters we love. How that suddenly became a no-no between 2 and 3 I'll never know.

It absolutely is their game of course and theirs to do with as they please.  But I wonder how people that say quit complaining and that the devs shouldn't change it because it's their vision, would feel if all of a sudden the devs had turned the reapers into evil spacefaring circus clowns who were using people goo to make jello molds for a neighborhood party.

I wonder how they'd feel if the artistic vision was to make this all be just a dream that Bob Newhart had after he fell asleep from his first dream.

I wonder how they'd feel if the devs revealed that none of this ever happened, ME1 included.  What if Shepard was totally insane and made it all up in his/her mind?  What if the stargazer at the end was just making up Princess Bride in space stories?

What if the devs meant by the ending that Shepard was really in charge of the reapers all along?

All, I am saying is at what point are the devs ever wrong and at what point is it ok to start complaining? 

They hit my threshold with ME2, in having a character that could be a love interest as optional DLC for some people (that some had to pay for) with LOTSB.  This shows the direction they were headed.

And then they hit my threshold with release day DLC From Ashes, with a really important (storywise) character who also gave some very important back story on what the Protheans faced and what they were really like.  He also added some other things, but you had to buy it to get it.

But I moved on from there.  I got over the DLC issues because other things were done so well.  I liked the endings for ME1 and 2.  I was shown that if I worked hard and did certain things "right" I could save everybody and have a "happy" ending.  Well, my LI was only repeating robotic words back to me "thanks for coming by", but when all of my teammates look at me in that one final scene, everything was worth it.

ME3's ending may be what the devs want, but I can say what I wanted as well and I don't see it as "bittersweet" as some at Bioware have said.  There's no sweet at all.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 28 mai 2012 - 03:02 .

[luzburg]

i cant agree more a happy ending possebilety where expected in a game with sutch diversity as mass effect 3.
i really hope that the "happy ending" to be possible in the Extended cut if shepard survived the destroy ending. you know a soldier finds shepard an utilise good first aid

and if the crew is stuck on that planet is just insulting to us and the characters. i remember someone from bioware said that the normandy didnt go trough the relay but was in ftl flight so they cant be far away

[SwoopIM]

I would have preferred a happy ending option and am dissapointed that we never got one.  We really only had 1 unhappy ending shoved down our throats in 3 different flavors.  I can even live with the unhappy ending but I thought it was sloppy, incoherent, and ill-conceived.  Here's why I didn't like the ME3 ending  :

[Getorex]

They could slap on a faux "Making of Mass Effect" cutscenes at the end where all the characters are "interviewed" with a LIVING SHEPARD right there exchanging jokes and comments with Saren from ME1, etc.

They could call that artistic integrity and artistic vision. The **** artiste bullcrap pushers could then clam up about so-called "artistic vision" and "artistic integrity". No such thing. All "art" is fungible and changeable. All of it is.

[3DandBeyond]

Getorex wrote...

They could slap on a faux "Making of Mass Effect" cutscenes at the end where all the characters are "interviewed" with a LIVING SHEPARD right there exchanging jokes and comments with Saren from ME1, etc.

They could call that artistic integrity and artistic vision. The **** artiste bullcrap pushers could then clam up about so-called "artistic vision" and "artistic integrity". No such thing. All "art" is fungible and changeable. All of it is.

It, no less than beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I can appreciate a Norman Rockwell painting of happiness and somewhat sappy idealized life of certain generations ago, but I can also appreciate the torture beneath "The Scream" or even Van Gogh's Starry Night, one that the artist himself was not that fond of.  Art is what the viewer sees more than what the artist creates.  An artist creates something using his/her vision, but the viewer defines it.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 mai 2012 - 03:20 .

[3DandBeyond]

The main thing is that neither should preclude the other and in fact, in ME it's very important to have both. Even people that want a happy ending, don't what it in some kind of vacuum, that it's the only ending. You should have something to work for and something to work against.

[fainmaca]

To all those who say that having the possibility of a 'happy' ending somehow would negate the others: I've made many choices in my life. Some were good, and some were bad. I have no idea what might have been, but I am sure there are plenty of life choices that could have led to a life where I would be much better off than I am now because, hey, nobody's perfect, right? so tell me this: Just because i know there are times when I made choices that didn't put my life on the 'best path', does that somehow invalidate who I am and what I do today, on this life course?

In Mass Effect, just like real life, you are supposed to make choices and then get the consequences, for better or worse. Just because your shepard saved more of his squadmates than mine does not mean that my Shepard is invalid. i made the choices I felt were right, and they were the ones i wanted to make, so my shepard is just as valid as anyone else's.

So yeah, there should definately be a possibility of a happy ending.

[Titch100]

I don't know if anyone else does it but when playing games like Mass Effect, RPG's with a central character and a whole universe to run around in (so to speak) I like to see myself as that person. In this case I am Shepard, he is me. Things don't happen to Commander Shepard, they happen to me. I'm the one who forms emotional bonds with the characters, I'm the one who has to make the tough decisions. I felt so damn proud when I shot that reporter down by naming every ship that was destroyed in the Battle for the Citadel and damn it I wept a manly tear at the death of Mordin Solus, that marvelous son of a *****. So when I push myself through all these hard choices and comrade deaths then goddamnit I want to be able to fight to make everything right. I don't want to get to the end of the game only to find that all my choices have been taken away from me, that this universe that I have grown to know and love will all be royally ****ed anyway.

The reason I play games, read books, watch films, etc, is becasue I want to see myself in place of the protagonist, It's what I enjoy. I do not want to be told that "you will not be able to make a difference not matter how hard you try"
What sort of a message is that?
Depressing, that's what. I don't want to be depressed, I want to be happy and it confuses the **** out of me as to why some people would rather be sad.

[3DandBeyond]

Titch100 wrote...

I don't know if anyone else does it but when playing games like Mass Effect, RPG's with a central character and a whole universe to run around in (so to speak) I like to see myself as that person. In this case I am Shepard, he is me. Things don't happen to Commander Shepard, they happen to me. I'm the one who forms emotional bonds with the characters, I'm the one who has to make the tough decisions. I felt so damn proud when I shot that reporter down by naming every ship that was destroyed in the Battle for the Citadel and damn it I wept a manly tear at the death of Mordin Solus, that marvelous son of a *****. So when I push myself through all these hard choices and comrade deaths then goddamnit I want to be able to fight to make everything right. I don't want to get to the end of the game only to find that all my choices have been taken away from me, that this universe that I have grown to know and love will all be royally ****ed anyway.

The reason I play games, read books, watch films, etc, is becasue I want to see myself in place of the protagonist, It's what I enjoy. I do not want to be told that "you will not be able to make a difference not matter how hard you try"
What sort of a message is that?
Depressing, that's what. I don't want to be depressed, I want to be happy and it confuses the **** out of me as to why some people would rather be sad.

I agree 100%.  I put myself into that role as well-that's what good storytelling is all about.  It's also part of what's so bad at the end.  That Shepard is no longer me, because I would have tried something, anything other than doing what that kid said.

But, in 3 games I lived vicariously through my Shepard.  I did things as I would hope I'd do under such tough circumstances.  And I felt that survival would be tough to achieve and happiness even harder, but I didn't want people to have died in vain.  The story was about redemption in so many ways.  What the heck good was all that nobler stuff if it meant nothing in the end?

Beyond all that, the vast majority of people use entertainment as something fun.  Dark, ambiguous and fatalistic isn't fun.

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
I agree 100%.  I put myself into that role as well-that's what good storytelling is all about.  It's also part of what's so bad at the end.  That Shepard is no longer me, because I would have tried something, anything other than doing what that kid said.

Tried what, exactly?

I can see Shepard arguing more, but in the end the device does what it does. Shep can either use it in one of the three ways it works, or not use it at all.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
I agree 100%.  I put myself into that role as well-that's what good storytelling is all about.  It's also part of what's so bad at the end.  That Shepard is no longer me, because I would have tried something, anything other than doing what that kid said.

Tried what, exactly?

I can see Shepard arguing more, but in the end the device does what it does. Shep can either use it in one of the three ways it works, or not use it at all.

Arguing is one thing.
Talking to Hackett or other members fo the fleet (Hackett could still communicate with Shepard on the Citadel, remember) Just hearing what others have to say about each ending would have added some variation.

What would the geth say about the Red ending?  How about EDI and Joker?

What would Jacob or Miranda say about Blue?  

What would Mordin say about Green?  Well, besides some high-pitched salarian laughter followed by a "No seriously"

At the very least, these endings need to be reworked to make it seem like SHepard is making an affirmative choice, rather than being herded towards them by the Catalyst.

ANd make them less brutal on Shepard and the galaxy.  We're supposed to feel like we accomplished something, not like the Starchild gave us Earth, but not before beatin Shepard up and taking his lunch money.

[Feanor_II]

If as happy ending we understand Total Win + Shepard & Co. survive and live happy after all, and add as and optional part of the ecuation "convetional victory" (a concept that if seen defends a bunch of times on this forums) I reject it.

I always have seen the Reapers as total Juggernaut, something with such an overwhelming power that can't be defeated with "conventional" methods (the sole idea of a winning just because of "guts and cooperation" is IMO naive and infantile). Victory has to come from a something new, even strange, not from "The Mother Of All Guns" that blows them up and also victory has come at VERY HIGH expense (Again, the sole idea of a victory without loses tragic and a certain degree catastrophe is IMO naive and laughable) that's why I'm fine with Sheppard's death and the destruction of the Mass Relay Network (with the tremendous consequences it would have).

It doesn't mean that I always want this kind of..... "dark" endigns, but it's the most appropiate for ME and the kind of menace reapers represent (both by their nature, methods and power), from my point of view of course.

In conclusion I want an ending I can take seriously, not some "Fairy tale" conclusion.... The current ending has seious flaws (mainly because of omissions, plotholes and narrative) but.... Sheppard dying and Mass Relays collapsing? I can buy it.

Modifié par Feanor_II, 30 mai 2012 - 10:07 .

[Doctor Uburian]

I have always been against the idea of having only a happy ending, or a sad/bittersweet one. Both of them are necessary for a story like Mass Effect.

The current Mass Effect 3 ending is only sad/bittersweet, and that makes the game incomplete at the best case. Of course, i'll respect Bioware's vision for the ending, as long as they respect mine.

For me, a happy ending is an ending where the main propose of the journey is fulfilled, while the essence of the trip is also keept. For that, we can take Homer's odyssey as an example: They lived an intense and amazing journey, a trip in which they gain wisdom, riches, and they explored an extensive number of amazing places, but in the end, they arrived to Ithaca, to live in peace.

Modifié par Doctor Uburian, 30 mai 2012 - 10:29 .

[3DandBeyond]

I'd actually disagree somewhat. The ending as it is now is not sad and/or bittersweet, it is void of all feeling. It's ambiguous in parts and childish in others. The Joker on a planet scene is childish. The meaning of it all is ambiguous. But, furthermore it is demoralizing and fatalistic. In games where Shepard always overcame insurmountable odds there's only one way for him/her to do so now and that makes no sense.

If the 3 choices are supposed to be the deciding factor on what happens, then why should having a certain amount of EMS that's a little bit more matter as to whether Shepard lives or dies. Either Shepard is or isn't partly synthetic and those parts stop working or this too is nonsense. And that doesn't take into account that the Reapers are juggernauts.

As for the feeling I get at the end-it's more confusion or I should say that was my initial reaction-confusion as to how that could be the end. The only sad part is that it's simply not rational. Shepard is given no way out, no way to at least ask a simple question, such as, "If you've been sending reapers to turn us into people goo, then why should I trust you now?" The kid could say Shepard has no choice, but at least Shepard would have asked something. As it is it looks like Shepard just automatically trusts this evil little being, who has assumed the form of something non-threatening to Shepard.

As far as a happy ending goes and the idea the Reapers are juggernauts, well so was Sovereign, so were the Collector's, so too was the idea that people of the galaxy couldn't work together against such foes. But Shepard overcame all of this. And it is a game. For me if a game only has one sad way to end that has no context or that is done just because someone says it should, well then games stop being fun and I stop playing games. Real life is real life. Games are fiction and should appeal to certain people. Mass Effect has even brought Shepard back to life-it makes no sense to me that in the final chapter where we have to say goodbye to Shepard anyway, that everything should only be tragedy with no possibility of a full blown happy ending. The Reapers are juggernauts, but even they must have an Achille's heal.

[Disgruntled Shepard]

Apparently some think happy endings are too childish But imo, having Shepard kill himself by walking into an explosion, jumping into an energy beam when he could have just peed on it to deliver plenty DNA or put his hand in two electrodes to get carbonized ... isn't smart, that's just plain childish.

For the record I did get my fingers as a child in the plug despite my grandma telling me not too (or cause of it actually, inverse psychology wasn't my grandma's strength lol) it's the kind of thing only a 5 year old would do, not a grown up Shepard.

[Harorrd]

Every Bioware up to date untill Dragon age 2 had several endings to their games, either good, or bad