419 réponses à ce sujet

[AdamJenson]

3DandBeyond wrote...

HeDo6pbluTpOJlb wrote...

Not happy ending:

OMG.  I laughed so hard at this because the look on the kid's face is exactly how I felt.  It's like I fecked up the whole freaking galaxy!  His reaction was priceless as he watched the mass relay destruction go throughout the galaxy.  Yes, this is exactly the type of reaction game companies want and it really helps solidify their place in fan's hearts.

HILARIOUS!  Kid went and broke the entire galaxy!

[3DandBeyond]

I do think one of the biggest gamechanging movies in history helped to define things and yet it has one of the most cliche endings ever. The whole movie was one big cliche based upon things that were very familiar to anyone who had ever watched a movie and it harkened back to other types of movies and serial movies that its creator loved. Star Wars. The original. And how old is it? It still gains new fans. It's played repeatedly on cable and satellite and even though you can see just how much older the stars of it have gotten, the movie is not quite as dated as many movies of the same time. It still succeeds and it was a total cliche.

Alien still succeeds and while it had only one success story amongst all the deaths, it still ended somewhat predictably, once it boiled down to Ripley v. the alien. It hit all the right notes. Even the lead in to what people figured meant there'd be a sequel-the cat.

I honestly can't think of a single horribly sad sacrificial ending blockbuster movie that I've seen more than once, if any at all. And I know it's not all about the money-but what I am pointing out is popularity. Things are popular and become blockbusters for a reason-people like them. Bruce Willis would have had exactly 1 Diehard movie if he had died at the end of the first one. "I Am Legend" did well, but nowhere near as well as "Independence Day". Now, I think "I Am Legend", the remake of "Omega Man" had a more thoughtful theme, but I'd watch "Independence Day" and have watched it way more than "Legend".

"Titanic" was a true blockbuster, and it featured a sappily sad moment and a somewhat sad/happy ending. The rest of the movie carried the ending, but the ending wasn't overwhelmingly sad because it was put into context; it was about all the living that she did that should would otherwise not have done and so you had to be happy for her.

Happy can be poignant too.

[AdamJenson]

Legion64 wrote...

Come back from a long vacation and ye still complaining about the ending!

On Topic: Because it's too cliche.

Happy ending = cliche

Sad ending = cliche

Tragic ending = cliche

They are ALL cliche.  ALL of them thus there is no merit to choosing tragic/sad over happy to get a "fitting and noncliche end".  I say that ME3 COPIES the ending to Halo3.  Tragic ending where the hero dies all tragic and such.  All heroicky and bittersweety.  Copycat! Copycat!  Copycat!

And SO cliche.

Modifié par AdamJenson, 31 mai 2012 - 02:18 .

[0x30A88]

(Be wary of spoilers if you haven't done ME3)

I don't want a outright happy ending as per definition, but it would be great if the best endings offered a potential future, like gaining better FTL tech from controlled reapers or salvaging and learning from reaper corpses that merely fell over in best-red. Their memories contain millenia upon millenia of information, perhaps even the secrets of mass relay technology.

Synthesis need some explaining, it seems like an involuntary transformation as it is now, more details about the long term effects of it would be most interesting. It seems the hardest ending to achieve, some positive things must come out of it.

The EC have the potential to do all this, but it seems most people are more interested in LIs' future, than whatever happens to the galaxy Shepard may have saved. The EC could also pave the way for expansions or future games set after ME3, with or without Shepard -- I would actually enjoy a game playing a new character and much prefer to select the race and stuff like that like in DA:O, though backstories instead of origins.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 31 mai 2012 - 02:28 .

[AdamJenson]

Gisle Aune wrote...

(Be wary of spoilers if you haven't done ME3)

I don't want a outright happy ending as per definition, but it would be great if the best endings offered a potential future, like gaining better FTL tech from controlled reapers or salvaging and learning from reaper corpses that merely fell over in best-red. Their memories contain millenia upon millenia of information, perhaps even the secrets of mass relay technology.

Synthesis need some explaining, it seems like an involuntary transformation as it is now, more details about the long term effects of it would be most interesting. It seems the hardest ending to achieve, some positive things must come out of it.

The EC have the potential to do all this, but it seems most people are more interested in LIs' future, than whatever happens to the galaxy Shepard may have saved. The EC could also pave the way for expansions or future games set after ME3, with or without Shepard -- I would actually enjoy a game playing a new character and much prefer to select the race and stuff like that like in DA:O, though backstories instead of origins.

Synthesis needs WAY more than what you suggest.  It needs an explanation how this kid is able to inflict this bizarre and nonsensical change on ALL LIFE EVERYWHERE IN THE GALAXY.  ALL life.  Poof!  This kid is NOT some AI or even a remnant of the original reaper creators, he IS a god.  He DOES have god powers that he can arbitrarily wield whenever he wants.  He just demands a blood sacrifice to do so.  Very old testament.

[Il Divo]

AdamJenson wrote...

Legion64 wrote...

Come back from a long vacation and ye still complaining about the ending!

On Topic: Because it's too cliche.

Happy ending = cliche

Sad ending = cliche

Tragic ending = cliche

They are ALL cliche.  ALL of them thus there is no merit to choosing tragic/sad over happy to get a "fitting and noncliche end".  I say that ME3 COPIES the ending to Halo3.  Tragic ending where the hero dies all tragic and such.  All heroicky and bittersweety.  Copycat! Copycat!  Copycat!

And SO cliche.

Not to split hairs, but Masterchief doesn't actually die in Halo 3's ending. But you're right. It's all been done to death to the point where nothing is original.

[AdamJenson]

Il Divo wrote...

AdamJenson wrote...

Legion64 wrote...

Come back from a long vacation and ye still complaining about the ending!

On Topic: Because it's too cliche.

Happy ending = cliche

Sad ending = cliche

Tragic ending = cliche

They are ALL cliche.  ALL of them thus there is no merit to choosing tragic/sad over happy to get a "fitting and noncliche end".  I say that ME3 COPIES the ending to Halo3.  Tragic ending where the hero dies all tragic and such.  All heroicky and bittersweety.  Copycat! Copycat!  Copycat!

And SO cliche.

Not to split hairs, but Masterchief doesn't actually die in Halo 3's ending. But you're right. It's all been done to death to the point where nothing is original.

Well, in fact the ending invites "speculations from everyone!" and implies/suggests a death at the end of the...fall.  Or perhaps it is a "red" ending like ME3's but without the breath scene that gives a slight suggestion of survival of the big boom-boom.  They just left it open-ish so they COULD come back with a masterchief again...or not. 

[0x30A88]

AdamJenson wrote...

Gisle Aune wrote...
*Snip*

Synthesis needs WAY more than what you suggest.  It needs an explanation how this kid is able to inflict this bizarre and nonsensical change on ALL LIFE EVERYWHERE IN THE GALAXY.  ALL life.  Poof!  This kid is NOT some AI or even a remnant of the original reaper creators, he IS a god.  He DOES have god powers that he can arbitrarily wield whenever he wants.  He just demands a blood sacrifice to do so.  Very old testament.

So, a selective explosion makes more sense? Or a dominate-signal being in the visible range of frequencies (blue)?

I am, as said, most interested in what happens next to the galaxy, and want a somewhat positive future for the most-EMS endings. Not a happy ending, but one that indicates there is a tomorrow for this intragalactic community, regardless of what becomes of our hero.

Stargazer scene should have never been though, if they wanted speculations, why imply something like that humanity is alone again...

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 31 mai 2012 - 03:06 .

[3DandBeyond]

Gisle Aune wrote...

(Be wary of spoilers if you haven't done ME3)

I don't want a outright happy ending as per definition, but it would be great if the best endings offered a potential future, like gaining better FTL tech from controlled reapers or salvaging and learning from reaper corpses that merely fell over in best-red. Their memories contain millenia upon millenia of information, perhaps even the secrets of mass relay technology.

Synthesis need some explaining, it seems like an involuntary transformation as it is now, more details about the long term effects of it would be most interesting. It seems the hardest ending to achieve, some positive things must come out of it.

The EC have the potential to do all this, but it seems most people are more interested in LIs' future, than whatever happens to the galaxy Shepard may have saved. The EC could also pave the way for expansions or future games set after ME3, with or without Shepard -- I would actually enjoy a game playing a new character and much prefer to select the race and stuff like that like in DA:O, though backstories instead of origins.

Your last point is erroneous.  I use the shortcut way of saying what I want by saying I'd like a full blown happy ending-this is what many people point to as the "best" win ending.  Yes, it includes Shepard's survival and reunion with the LI, and this is emphasized, because others see a sacrificial ending where Shepard dies in some noble fashion but saves the galaxy.  It's a given that the galaxy is saved and that there is some way to recover from what happened-that should be one possible part of any ending and it's not something that's ever been in dispute.

The disputed part has always been over what happens to Shepard and friends, including the LI.  That's why it's discussed so much.  For me, no ending is happy if it does not include these things.  But others think that as long as the galaxy is saved then that's enough.  It isn't.  What would the whole galaxy be like if Shepard had done nothing?  What would the galaxy be like if Shepard had not risked even ridicule in sharing the vision of the Eden Prime beacon?  Shepard risked not only his/her life, but real standing in the eyes of everyone.  It was to Anderson's great credit that he believed in the vision.  But it was to Shepard's great credit that nothing was more important than saving everyone else.  But, when you stop to think about it, what was Shepard doing all along?  Forcing people to fight to save themselves.  Everyone was acting selfishly and all Shepard was trying to say all along was work together and possibly live or stand alone and certainly die.  Even this was in their own self-interest and Shepard had to force them to do it.  The only credit the galaxy deserves is that they finally listened and believed Shepard.

So, why doesn't Shepard deserve something?  Shepard didn't really have much of a childhood, parents may never have even been known and all Shepard has ever done is save other people, some that really didn't deserve saving.  Why not a happy ending for Shepard?  And look at some of the love interests-Jack, ok tell me Jack doesn't deserve to be reunited with Shepard, or Tali-a life spent wandering in space in a suit where any contact with another person can be fatal.  Or yes, even Liara.  Mother helps Saren and she is probably there and helps kill her.  I guess she deserves nothing?  Garrus, his whole squad slaughtered because of a "friend" and he's lived his life somewhat apart from others.  Kaidan lives with his implants and with what happened early on in his life.  Ashley lives with what happened to her grandfather (wasn't it?) and she lives with feeling guilty herself and must deal with all the things she can't or doesn't want to live up to. 

In my opinion all the tragedies already have played out--the characters have lived them.  The sacrifices already happened, again they lived them.  They all already gave up their lives for this cause, now why can't they reclaim and really get to start living their lives?

[3DandBeyond]

Gisle Aune wrote...

AdamJenson wrote...

Synthesis needs WAY more than what you suggest.  It needs an explanation how this kid is able to inflict this bizarre and nonsensical change on ALL LIFE EVERYWHERE IN THE GALAXY.  ALL life.  Poof!  This kid is NOT some AI or even a remnant of the original reaper creators, he IS a god.  He DOES have god powers that he can arbitrarily wield whenever he wants.  He just demands a blood sacrifice to do so.  Very old testament.

So, a selective explosion makes more sense? Or a dominate-signal being in the visible range of frequencies (blue)?

I am, as said, most interested in what happens next to the galaxy, and want a somewhat positive future for the most-EMS endings. Not a happy ending, but one that indicates there is a tomorrow for this intragalactic community, regardless of what becomes of our hero.

Stargazer scene should have never been though, if they wanted speculations, why imply something like that humanity is alone again...

You are mischaracterizing what AdamJenson said.  The comment about Synthesis was pointing only to its problems.  What AJ is saying is Synthesis is incredibly nonsensical just in thinking it could magically work like that-that the kid could send a beam that just changes all DNA at the blink of an eye.

A selective explosion actually is more easy to explain, but AJ never said that that should happen.  We have no context, no explanation as to what any of this means, nor how any of it happens.

And AJ never said that Control makes sense either.  I don't think most of us think any of the choices make much sense nor do we think that they are things Shepard with free will would choose-or that Shepard with a backbone would choose.

The kid has the off switch, but the kid demands a sacrificial lamb (Shepard) in order to hit the switch with some psychotic consequences.  Shepard isn't the only sacrifice-EDI and the Geth may be.  All life may be (synthesis).  The soul may be (is Shepard decides to become god and picks control).  None of them make sense, but at least Destroy and Control might be possible to achieve and with far less explanation than Synthesis.

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

So, why doesn't Shepard deserve something?  Shepard didn't really have much of a childhood, parents may never have even been known and all Shepard has ever done is save other people, some that really didn't deserve saving.  Why not a happy ending for Shepard?  And look at some of the love interests-Jack, ok tell me Jack doesn't deserve to be reunited with Shepard, or Tali-a life spent wandering in space in a suit where any contact with another person can be fatal.  Or yes, even Liara.  Mother helps Saren and she is probably there and helps kill her.  I guess she deserves nothing?  Garrus, his whole squad slaughtered because of a "friend" and he's lived his life somewhat apart from others.  Kaidan lives with his implants and with what happened early on in his life.  Ashley lives with what happened to her grandfather (wasn't it?) and she lives with feeling guilty herself and must deal with all the things she can't or doesn't want to live up to. 

In addition, with Liara, Kaidan, and Ashley LIs, Shepard has lready died on them once, leavin ghtem heartbroken.  Doing so a second time seems needlessly cruel

Shepard's whole life has been full of violence and tragedy. is it really inappropriate that Shepard is rewarded for saving the galaxy by being able to build a future in a new age he/she helped shape?  In other words, to live with the consequences of the choices made?

[Subject M]

AdamJenson wrote...

Legion64 wrote...

Come back from a long vacation and ye still complaining about the ending!

On Topic: Because it's too cliche.

Happy ending = cliche

Sad ending = cliche

Tragic ending = cliche

They are ALL cliche.  ALL of them thus there is no merit to choosing tragic/sad over happy to get a "fitting and noncliche end".  I say that ME3 COPIES the ending to Halo3.  Tragic ending where the hero dies all tragic and such.  All heroicky and bittersweety.  Copycat! Copycat!  Copycat!

And SO cliche.

If we are serious for a moment, we quickly discovers that "happy", "sad" and "tragic" are more of "genre" then anything else. They all become cliché when such stories or endings are poorly crafted and/or re-uses common themes overly much.

[Subject M]

iakus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

So, why doesn't Shepard deserve something?  Shepard didn't really have much of a childhood, parents may never have even been known and all Shepard has ever done is save other people, some that really didn't deserve saving.  Why not a happy ending for Shepard?  And look at some of the love interests-Jack, ok tell me Jack doesn't deserve to be reunited with Shepard, or Tali-a life spent wandering in space in a suit where any contact with another person can be fatal.  Or yes, even Liara.  Mother helps Saren and she is probably there and helps kill her.  I guess she deserves nothing?  Garrus, his whole squad slaughtered because of a "friend" and he's lived his life somewhat apart from others.  Kaidan lives with his implants and with what happened early on in his life.  Ashley lives with what happened to her grandfather (wasn't it?) and she lives with feeling guilty herself and must deal with all the things she can't or doesn't want to live up to. 

In addition, with Liara, Kaidan, and Ashley LIs, Shepard has lready died on them once, leavin ghtem heartbroken.  Doing so a second time seems needlessly cruel

Shepard's whole life has been full of violence and tragedy. is it really inappropriate that Shepard is rewarded for saving the galaxy by being able to build a future in a new age he/she helped shape?  In other words, to live with the consequences of the choices made?

+1

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

So, why doesn't Shepard deserve something?  Shepard didn't really have much of a childhood, parents may never have even been known and all Shepard has ever done is save other people, some that really didn't deserve saving.  Why not a happy ending for Shepard?  And look at some of the love interests-Jack, ok tell me Jack doesn't deserve to be reunited with Shepard, or Tali-a life spent wandering in space in a suit where any contact with another person can be fatal.  Or yes, even Liara.  Mother helps Saren and she is probably there and helps kill her.  I guess she deserves nothing?  Garrus, his whole squad slaughtered because of a "friend" and he's lived his life somewhat apart from others.  Kaidan lives with his implants and with what happened early on in his life.  Ashley lives with what happened to her grandfather (wasn't it?) and she lives with feeling guilty herself and must deal with all the things she can't or doesn't want to live up to. 

In addition, with Liara, Kaidan, and Ashley LIs, Shepard has lready died on them once, leavin ghtem heartbroken.  Doing so a second time seems needlessly cruel

Shepard's whole life has been full of violence and tragedy. is it really inappropriate that Shepard is rewarded for saving the galaxy by being able to build a future in a new age he/she helped shape?  In other words, to live with the consequences of the choices made?

That's it-killing off Shepard is needlessly cruel.  It's doing so "just because".  There's no good reason to have to do it.  As it is the endings decide to kill Shepard out of this cruelty. 

Shepard can't choose destroy until the little target box shows up that can be shot and then Shepard walks toward the thing that will go "boom".  Yes, this is logical.  Everywhere else in the game, people get behind cover when shooting something that will go "boom", so it's sensible to walk toward it.  But, wait.  Miraculously, the thing that goes "boom" doesn't hit Shepard quite as hard if Shepard's overseer (aka, the player) has taken part in multiplayer.  Apparently multiplayer has magical effects on devices that explode right in Shepard's face so Shepard can "live".

Synthesis-oh, yes Shepard must die because no one could find his/her toothbrush with some DNA on it. And no super powerful magical device that can automatically change all DNA in the galaxy would be able to replicate minute amounts of Shepard DNA to infuse-why does Shepard's DNA need to be infused exactly?  Oh yeah, because Shepard must die.

Then there's Control-well, it makes complete sense that Shepard must die here.  Yes it do...  Shepard must die in order to be able to control the reapers.  Ok, hit me upside my head with that brick again please.  I didn't understand that one.  Shepard will control the reapers after dying.  Gotcha.  So, there's a real logical reason why Shepard must die here, because no live person could control the reapers, only dead ones can---with what, their dead brain?  Or how about their dead decaying hand-is it guiding the reaper control joystick?  No, Shepard must die in order to control the reapers, because Shepard must die.  Ok great.

And multiplayer effects created by Shepard's overseer (the player) apparently are only magically applied to things that go "boom" in Shepard's face.  Because otherwise, Shepard must die.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 31 mai 2012 - 03:44 .

[Benchpress610]

AdamJenson wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

HeDo6pbluTpOJlb wrote...

Not happy ending:

OMG.  I laughed so hard at this because the look on the kid's face is exactly how I felt.  It's like I fecked up the whole freaking galaxy!  His reaction was priceless as he watched the mass relay destruction go throughout the galaxy.  Yes, this is exactly the type of reaction game companies want and it really helps solidify their place in fan's hearts.

HILARIOUS!  Kid went and broke the entire galaxy!

Lol, I had almost the same reaction sans the screaming. I can see why the kid gets so upset about it. Usually kids get more invested in stories than adults do. Maybe that’s why ME is intended for adult audiences.

[3DandBeyond]

At this point, a real ending would be preferable to star kid fantasy island, but I do want a happy possibility.

[Memnon]

This is something I've never been able to understand either - same with movies. If a movie is a 'critical success' (deemed by movie critics, not box office returns) then more than likely it's a dark movie with an unhappy ending. I guess happy endings are too mainstream or cliche or whatever, so to be different you have to have an unhappy ending and voila, artistic integrity.

If anyone played and remembed the fallout (pun intended) from the original FO3 ending, well ... you get the idea. Sorry game developers, we simple-minded lowbrows want happy endings. Or at the very least for our guy to live. Well, at least I do

Modifié par Stornskar, 01 juin 2012 - 03:30 .

[3DandBeyond]

Stornskar wrote...

This is something I've never been able to understand either - same with movies. If a movie is a 'critical success' (deemed by movie critics, not box office returns) then more than likely it's a dark movie with an unhappy ending. I guess happy endings are too mainstream or cliche or whatever, so to be different you have to have an unhappy ending and voila, artistic integrity.

If anyone played and remembed the fallout (pun intended) from the original FO3 ending, well ... you get the idea. Sorry game developers, we simple-minded lowbrows want happy endings. Or at the very least for our guy to live. Well, at least I do

That's the big disconnect in what is deemed artistic.  The masses are made to feel inferior in some ways because they just don't get what some say is vaild or intellectual.  But, it's not truly intelligent people that think this way, it's what used to be referred to as the pretender.  It's artifice and pretentious to feel that art is art because it is not understandable and/or dark which equals thoughtful.

In fact, true art is that which speaks to the heart and that which reaches people on a real comprehendable level.  It's meant to be understood and it's mean to evoke emotion. 

Movie reviewers have perpetuated the same sort of nonsense that art reviewers have adhered to for years.  But much of what was done in the art world was done so that someone didn't have to explain what they couldn't possibly explain.  I once went to the nearby art institute and got to see a new work hanging on the wall.  It was entitled, "White".  Appropriately enough it was merely white paint on canvas.  Wow.  And someone paid good money for this.  I don't think I'm the brightest crayon in the box, but I don't think I'm stupid either.  I couldn't imagine how this could actually be art, but there's an answer for it-if you have to ask what it means, you won't understand what it means.  The invention of circular logic.  And the emperor just took off all his clothes, but wants you to see what a sharp dresser he is.

I like things that truly do challenge my perceptions, but appreciate M.C. Escher far more than I do Picasso in his cubist period.

And so, as far as stories go, I appreciate Alien far more than 2001: A Space Odyssey.  Or anything other than a David Lynch movie.

My tastes may not be highbrow, but they are just as valid and I will take heartwarming over highbrow artistic renderings any day.  Many may feel that highbrow and/or dark and fatalistic or tragic appeals to the brain's sense of what must be, but I lead with my heart, especially in entertainment.

[ardias89]

There are some general idea of that happy endings arent sophisticated enough.

[3DandBeyond]

ardias89 wrote...

There are some general idea of that happy endings arent sophisticated enough.

Well, in that they are wrong.  I've seen plenty of movies in my time and many that have happy endings are very sophistcated in how they get there.

Some create the emotional low and do it so well, that you come to no other conclusion than that the ending will be tragic.  It rips at you, eats at you, hurts you, and just when you thought it was over---the real ending hits and the feeling can be amazing.  If done well and with a real sense of timing and of atmosphere it can be amazing.