419 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Piszi wrote...

I think the ending of ME is kinda happy. Just think for a moment, you saved trillions of lives in the galaxy icluding Earth and some of your crew. You gave a second chance for everyone. So isn't this happy?
Ok I understand those who want Shep to survive the war and I think this should be at least one option if you were effective but it isn't so you need to finde some happiness in what you got.

Given what we have to do to "save" the galaxy, no, I can't even take comfort in that.

If I'm going to usher in a galactic dark age, i want Shepard and his crew there to help rebuild.

[silentassassin264]

iakus wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

The reason I am against a happy ending is because of the whole "third option' everything turns out well type of deal. The Reapers were hyped up to be unstoppable juggernauts who were going to bring the pain if they made it back to inhabited space. Their tech was so much better and when combined with indoctrination/huskification they are unstoppable by conventional means. If you make a happy ending when Shep lives with Li/crew, reapers are defeated, and it basically looks like there was no sacrifice, it cheapens the enemy. You spend this whole time hearing about how unstoppable the Reapers are and then you get a flawless victory...it just sounds ridiculous. Even if you make "all the right choices" (IE play paragon) it turns out that this unstoppable force was stopped by just making the right choices. The whole point about the Reapers being light years stronger than you is that if you make all the right choices you should still suffer just because of how much stronger they are. Fighting against the reapers is not supposed to be a fair or winnable fight. The fact that you do win is what makes you legendary. A yay everything is worked out ending would make the whole series completely pointless....worse than the catalyst and primary color explosions ever could.

The Reaper did bring the pain.  We see several planets on fire.

The Crucible was in fact the deus ex machina we apparantly needed because the Reapers can't be dealt with conventionally

There's plenty of sacrifice.  Note the planets on fire.  The deaths, including the deaths of several of Shepards' friends.  The refugees and their stories.  How pretty much every crew member on the Normandy has a sad tale to tell of the invasion.  

Even if everything worked out in the end and the Crucible was a big "I Win" button, it would not have been a flawless victory.  Everyone on the Normandy, even Shepard, lost family and/or friends.  Several homeworlds have been devastated.  There are literally piles of corpses laying about.  The galaxy will be centuries in recovering, if indeed it ever does.

And yet if Shepard and the Normandy crew manage to survive, it's "too happy"?  Are we really that jaded as a society?

One death is a tragedy.  A million is a statistic.  There was some personal loss but it was it was ME2 people who were removed from the story largely until their little moments show up.  Shepards's personal team for ME3 would escape unscathed.  Hackett explains it nicely that they are using Shepard and the Normandy as the tip of their spear.  If you are clad in your loincloth and spear and take down an M1 Abrams with spear perfectly intact...that is more than a miracle.  For [active] Team Shepard to actually get through with no losses when Harbinger made you (well Shepard) specifically the target is ridiculous.  It is already stupid enough that they hinted that Shepard might live in the perfect destroy ending when his/her wounds from get hit by a stream of relativistically blasted molten metal should be fatal even if he/she got medical attention afterwards.  

[o Ventus]

I don't know about anyone else, but "Grimdark" endings like the ones we have now are becoming almost as cliche as "sunshine and bunny" happy endings.

[Piszi]

Han Shot First wrote...

I think the ending is kind of happy if you destroy the Reapers and guarantee that the cycle will not repeat. That element feels like victory.

Galactic civilization utterly collapsing? Not so much. Ushering in a galactic dark age is a bit of a downer, to be honest. I'd compare the existing ending to the ending of The Road. There is a glimmer of hope, but still dark as f--k.

Personally I'd rather Shepard and every soul on the Normandy die than galactic civilization collapse. I find the latter more depressing. At the least the former is worth it, if the sacrifice saves civilization.

I don't see this so dark. There were life before the mass relays and you still have the technology and everything can be rebuilt. I admit it will take long time but at least the galaxy isn't doomed.

[Han Shot First]

o Ventus wrote...

I don't know about anyone else, but "Grimdark" endings like the ones we have now are becoming almost as cliche as "sunshine and bunny" happy endings.

Bioware should have aimed somewhere in the middle between those two extremes.

I don't see this so dark. There were life before the mass relays and you still have the technology and everything can be rebuilt. I admit it will take long time but at least the galaxy isn't doomed.

It is a bit of a downer in the sense that Shepard spends most of Mass Effect 3 rallying the galaxy together in an effort to save civilization, but in the end civilization won't be saved. Organic life is saved, but not organic civilization. That utterly collapses and probably won't be rebuilt for millenia. The tragedy is that all those factions you rallied to take back Earth are now stranded in the Sol System, and will never see their own homeworlds again.

*If* Shepard survives he also will not be reunited with his crew or his LI, as they jumped through the Sol relay and have crash landed on an uninhabited garden world, out of contact with the rest of the galaxy and who knows how many light years away.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 13 mai 2012 - 02:41 .

[AlanC9]

Piszi wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I think the ending is kind of happy if you destroy the Reapers and guarantee that the cycle will not repeat. That element feels like victory.

Galactic civilization utterly collapsing? Not so much. Ushering in a galactic dark age is a bit of a downer, to be honest. I'd compare the existing ending to the ending of The Road. There is a glimmer of hope, but still dark as f--k.

Personally I'd rather Shepard and every soul on the Normandy die than galactic civilization collapse. I find the latter more depressing. At the least the former is worth it, if the sacrifice saves civilization.

I don't see this so dark. There were life before the mass relays and you still have the technology and everything can be rebuilt. I admit it will take long time but at least the galaxy isn't doomed.

I sometimes think this is the real dividing line on the endings. I'm on Piszi's side of it; the way I see things, they've got starships that travels at over 4000x lightspeed, so who needs relays? The Star Trek universe works just fine with ships that are a good deal slower than that.

@ Han Shot First: where are you getting "utterly collapses"? Why won't the individual clusters be OK?

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 mai 2012 - 02:45 .

[Iakus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

One death is a tragedy.  A million is a statistic.  There was some personal loss but it was it was ME2 people who were removed from the story largely until their little moments show up.  Shepards's personal team for ME3 would escape unscathed.  Hackett explains it nicely that they are using Shepard and the Normandy as the tip of their spear.  If you are clad in your loincloth and spear and take down an M1 Abrams with spear perfectly intact...that is more than a miracle.  For [active] Team Shepard to actually get through with no losses when Harbinger made you (well Shepard) specifically the target is ridiculous.  It is already stupid enough that they hinted that Shepard might live in the perfect destroy ending when his/her wounds from get hit by a stream of relativistically blasted molten metal should be fatal even if he/she got medical attention afterwards.  

I literally cannot wrap my mind around this concept.  And I don't know if that's good or bad.

Planets.  On fire.  Shepard watches it happen and is helpless to do anything stop it.  

Friends die to secure aid for Shepard.  But they "don't count" because they're not part of the ME3 crew...

The stories behind the invasion were unbearably sad.  Like th elittle girl in teh refugee camp who kept asking the C-Sec officer if he'd heard any news about her parents.  I literally had to hurry past the PTSD commando in the Citadel hospital to avoid hearing that story.  It was only later that I learned the significance of her tale and felt even worse.

And yet, Shepard and crew beating the odds one last time and living is "too happy"

[AlanC9]

I need to clarify something:

Han Shot First wrote...
*If* Shepard survives he also will not be reunited with his crew or his LI, as they jumped through the Sol relay and have crash landed on an uninhabited garden world, out of contact with the rest of the galaxy and who knows how many light years away.

You've forgotten the distinction between primary relays and secondary relays. Primary relays can send you thousands of light-years, but have only one possible destination. Secondary relays can link to any relay in range, but that range is only a few hundred light years.

So the planet the Normandy reached is either unknown and reachable by conventional drives, or known but unreachable. It can't be both at once.

The Codex is kind of vague, but it sounds like Arcturus has primary relays but Sol is not one of those relay pairs. Arcturus-Sol would be an awfully short primary link, since Arcturus is only 37 l.y. away; and if this is a primary link then holding Arcturus itself isn't of any real importance in guarding the links to Sol system.

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 mai 2012 - 02:56 .

[o Ventus]

AlanC9 wrote...

I need to clarify something:

Han Shot First wrote...
*If* Shepard survives he also will not be reunited with his crew or his LI, as they jumped through the Sol relay and have crash landed on an uninhabited garden world, out of contact with the rest of the galaxy and who knows how many light years away.

You've forgotten the distinction between primary relays and secondary relays. Primary relays can send you thousands of light-years, but have only one possible destination. Secondary relays can link to any relay in range, but that range is only a few hundred light years.

So the planet the Normandy reached is either unknown and reachable by conventional drives, or known but unreachable. It can't be both at once.

How do we actually know that Joker was in-transit in the Charon relay?

[Han Shot First]

@ Han Shot First: where are you getting "utterly collapses"? Why won't the individual clusters be OK?

Star Brat indicates that the energy from the Crucible destroys Reaper tech. Otherwise, EDI and the Geth wouldn't die and the relays wouldn't go boom. If that tech destroys EDI and the Geth and the relays, than it should also destroy other Reaper tech. Pretty much all the technology in the galaxy is based on stuff dug up from Prothean ruins, which was based on Inusannon relics, and so on and so forth, all the way back to the Reapers.

Also, the conversation between the old man (Buzz Aldrin) and the child seemed to indicate that they were not a spacefaring people. The dialogue seemed to indicate that the old man was talking about distant future when humanity would once again reach for the stars, rather than the present. Since that conversation takes place at least several centuries if not millenia after the Shepard trilogy, it also seems to indicate that a galactic dark age was ushered in.

The alternative is that the old man and the child are descendants of the Normandy crew, on an isolated and uncharted garden world that is cut off and out of contact with the rest of the galaxy. While that may leave some wiggle room to have galactic civilization as a whole survive, it does cut of the Normandy crew and Shepard's LI from Shepard for all time, assuming he survives.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 13 mai 2012 - 02:56 .

[AlanC9]

o Ventus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I need to clarify something:

Han Shot First wrote...
*If* Shepard survives he also will not be reunited with his crew or his LI, as they jumped through the Sol relay and have crash landed on an uninhabited garden world, out of contact with the rest of the galaxy and who knows how many light years away.

You've forgotten the distinction between primary relays and secondary relays. Primary relays can send you thousands of light-years, but have only one possible destination. Secondary relays can link to any relay in range, but that range is only a few hundred light years.

So the planet the Normandy reached is either unknown and reachable by conventional drives, or known but unreachable. It can't be both at once.

How do we actually know that Joker was in-transit in the Charon relay?

We don't, really. But I'll go with that assumption until the EC ships.

[silentassassin264]

iakus wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

One death is a tragedy.  A million is a statistic.  There was some personal loss but it was it was ME2 people who were removed from the story largely until their little moments show up.  Shepards's personal team for ME3 would escape unscathed.  Hackett explains it nicely that they are using Shepard and the Normandy as the tip of their spear.  If you are clad in your loincloth and spear and take down an M1 Abrams with spear perfectly intact...that is more than a miracle.  For [active] Team Shepard to actually get through with no losses when Harbinger made you (well Shepard) specifically the target is ridiculous.  It is already stupid enough that they hinted that Shepard might live in the perfect destroy ending when his/her wounds from get hit by a stream of relativistically blasted molten metal should be fatal even if he/she got medical attention afterwards.  

I literally cannot wrap my mind around this concept.  And I don't know if that's good or bad.

Planets.  On fire.  Shepard watches it happen and is helpless to do anything stop it.  

Friends die to secure aid for Shepard.  But they "don't count" because they're not part of the ME3 crew...

The stories behind the invasion were unbearably sad.  Like th elittle girl in teh refugee camp who kept asking the C-Sec officer if he'd heard any news about her parents.  I literally had to hurry past the PTSD commando in the Citadel hospital to avoid hearing that story.  It was only later that I learned the significance of her tale and felt even worse.

And yet, Shepard and crew beating the odds one last time and living is "too happy"

It isn't "too happy" it is so unrealistic it is immersion breaking.  Shepard gets hit by the main gun of the most powerful dreadnought in the entire galaxy while on foot and lives.  I can give crazy adrenaline and cybernetics to get through the endgame with the Illusvie Troll and the Catalyst but when rush is over, you bleed out and die.  There is no way Shepard should survive with no medical attention and no help imminently coming to save him/her.  What is wrong with dying a hero?  Why is it absolutely necessary to defy all common sense just to have a "happy ending"?

[Han Shot First]

One other thing that seems to hint at a galactic dark age: Information decay.

The old man says that the events surrounding Shepard have been lost to time. This could only happen if computers and the information network went dark. Otherwise it should have been preserved as part of the historical record.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 13 mai 2012 - 03:04 .

[o Ventus]

Han Shot First wrote...

One other thing that seems to hint at a galactic dark age: Information decay.

The old man says that the events surrounding Shepard have been lost to time. This could only happen if computers and the information network went dark. Otherwise it should have been preserved as part of the historical record.

On a side note, whatever happened to that mini-Vigil that Liara made with Glyph inside?

[Iakus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

It isn't "too happy" it is so unrealistic it is immersion breaking.  Shepard gets hit by the main gun of the most powerful dreadnought in the entire galaxy while on foot and lives.  I can give crazy adrenaline and cybernetics to get through the endgame with the Illusvie Troll and the Catalyst but when rush is over, you bleed out and die.  There is no way Shepard should survive with no medical attention and no help imminently coming to save him/her.  What is wrong with dying a hero?  Why is it absolutely necessary to defy all common sense just to have a "happy ending"?

We never see Shepard (or the squaddies) get directly hit.  My assumption was always that Shepard had a near miss with the beam.  Thus why he looked totally frakked up but was still alive.  

[AlanC9]

Han Shot First wrote...
Star Brat indicates that the energy from the Crucible destroys Reaper tech. Otherwise, EDI and the Geth wouldn't die and the relays wouldn't go boom. If that tech destroys EDI and the Geth and the relays, than it should also destroy other Reaper tech. Pretty much all the technology in the galaxy is based on stuff dug up from Prothean ruins, which was based on Inusannon relics, and so on and so forth, all the way back to the Reapers.

This is simply false. What he says is that all synthetic life will be destroyed, including the geth, on the red path. He says nothing whatsoever about Reaper tech being destroyed, on that path or any other.

Also, the conversation between the old man (Buzz Aldrin) and the child seemed to indicate that they were not a spacefaring people. The dialogue seemed to indicate that the old man was talking about distant future when humanity would once again reach for the stars, rather than the present. Since that conversation takes place at least several centuries if not millenia after the Shepard trilogy, it also seems to indicate that a galactic dark age was ushered in.

The Stargazer tells the boy that one day he can go to the stars. How did you get from that to them not being a starfaring people? It does sound like the whole galaxy hasn't been mapped in his time, but that isn't the same thing. The Citadel races hadn't mapped the whole galaxy either; they hadn't even come close.

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 mai 2012 - 03:09 .

[slimgrin]

WTF does a happy ending have anything to do with the monumental incompetence of writing in ME3?

This looks like all the spin by Bioware for gamers who need more closure.

Modifié par slimgrin, 13 mai 2012 - 03:11 .

[AlanC9]

slimgrin wrote...

WTF does a happy ending have anything to do with the monumental incompetence of writing in ME3?

Nothing much. What does your post have to do with this thread?

[Iakus]

slimgrin wrote...

WTF does a happy ending have anything to do with the monumental incompetence of writing in ME3?

This looks like all the spin by Bioware for gamers who need more closure.

lack of variety in the endings

[Dead_Meat357]

Atakuma wrote...

Happiness is for hippies.

And dark emo endings are for wannabe intellectuals who wear fedoras and drink expensive coffee. As I've said before. too many people confuse dark with profound and act like something should be "intellectual" in order to be worth something. These are both false.

[Sidney]

Han Shot First wrote...

Star Brat indicates that the energy from the Crucible destroys Reaper tech. Otherwise, EDI and the Geth wouldn't die and the relays wouldn't go boom. If that tech destroys EDI and the Geth and the relays, than it should also destroy other Reaper tech. Pretty much all the technology in the galaxy is based on stuff dug up from Prothean ruins, which was based on Inusannon relics, and so on and so forth, all the way back to the Reapers.

I think you are taking too broad a view of "reaper tech". Something made by the reapers might go boom but stuff that is many generations removed isn't reaper tech - or else I can argue nothing is reaper tech since someone else built stuff before the reapers.  For example, Thanix cannons to be, even though based on Reaper designsm, are not now reaper tech so they should still work.

[Chromie]

AlanC9 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

WTF does a happy ending have anything to do with the monumental incompetence of writing in ME3?

Nothing much. What does your post have to do with this thread?

What does your post have to do with this thread? 

[AlanC9]

Han Shot First wrote...

One other thing that seems to hint at a galactic dark age: Information decay.

The old man says that the events surrounding Shepard have been lost to time. This could only happen if computers and the information network went dark. Otherwise it should have been preserved as part of the historical record.

This part I agree with. My take is that the relays were not rebuilt; or at least, not quickly. Each primary-linked cluster is on its own unless it has a functioning QEC -- and if you don't have one of those nobody can give you the plans to rebuild the relays even when it's figured out. So some parts of the galaxy are backwaters, yep.

[AlanC9]

Skelter192 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

WTF does a happy ending have anything to do with the monumental incompetence of writing in ME3?

Nothing much. What does your post have to do with this thread?

What does your post have to do with this thread? 

Ooh! Are we going all "meta" here?

[Han Shot First]

AlanC9 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
Star Brat indicates that the energy from the Crucible destroys Reaper tech. Otherwise, EDI and the Geth wouldn't die and the relays wouldn't go boom. If that tech destroys EDI and the Geth and the relays, than it should also destroy other Reaper tech. Pretty much all the technology in the galaxy is based on stuff dug up from Prothean ruins, which was based on Inusannon relics, and so on and so forth, all the way back to the Reapers.

This is simply false. What he says is that all synthetic life will be destroyed, including the geth, on the red path. He says nothing whatsoever about Reaper tech being destroyed, on that path or any other.

If the Crucible destroys synthetics, than it also destroys all Reaper tech. In fact we know it destroys Reaper tech in general, because it also fries the relays. It isn't just targeting AI servers and platforms. Besides, short of space magic how could the survival of some Reaper tech be explained when other Reaper tech is clearly destroyed? What seperates the two?

The Stargazer tells the boy that one day he can go to the stars. How did you get from that to them not being a starfaring people? It does sound like the whole galaxy hasn't been mapped in his time, but that isn't the same thing. The Citadel races hadn't mapped the whole galaxy either; they hadn't even come close.

His dialogue indicates that they aren't spacefaring people. A crucial hint is that he says that the events of the Shepard trilogy have been largely lost to time. Information decay would not happen in a modern, industrialized age where we have the ability to print books or preserve information on hard drives. That his people lost that ability to preserve their history, indicates a technological decline.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 13 mai 2012 - 03:15 .