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What's wrong with a happy ending?


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#126
DeinonSlayer

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darkness reborn wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

darkness reborn wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

darkness reborn wrote...

I'll just leave this here...

Happy endings never happen in war stories.

Sure they do. You live. Hell, a lot of people in World War 2 (particularly American troops in Britain) met their future spouses as a direct consequence of the war, but for most, a happy ending is simply surviving to go home to the people you care about.

And how many of them suffered form PTSD?

So? I never said they got out without any scars.

Well just pointing out that war stories have two sides to the story. Not everyone is going to come out the same way as going in. 

Noted.

Lots of people came back from that war. They got married, had their jobs, their families, their grandchildren. Even with all those things, I doubt many of them would deign to call their lives a realm of unicorns and rainbows - but I'm sure they preferred bad memories over death all the same.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 13 mai 2012 - 07:04 .


#127
FoggyFishburne

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Yeah everyone seems to be a snobby hipster these days.

"Happy ending? Pfff please, you peasants. That so mainstream. Let's do something completely nonsensical and edgy instead!!"

It's ridiculous really. The ending we got is ****, and being able to get a good ending would be awesome. I mean, I would've settled for a bitter sweat ending, an ending where we see how much we've lost over the course of 3 games, but also of what we've gained. A happy go-lucky good ending would've been the cherry on top of the sunday.

#128
AlanC9

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Yep, FoggyFishburne, I'm one of those hipster elitist types. I won't bother to deny it.

That's the way things go -- whatever you like, somebody's going to think you have awful taste. I wonder... would we be better off if we pretended to have respect for each others' tastes? (From what I've seen here, actual respect isn't doable.)

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 mai 2012 - 07:05 .


#129
Guest_darkness reborn_*

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

 Noted.

Lots of people came back from that war. They got married, had their jobs, their families, their grandchildren. Even with all those things, I doubt many of them would deign to call their lives a realm of unicorns and rainbows - but I'm sure they preferred bad memories over death all the same.

True.

#130
furryrage59

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darkness reborn wrote...

I'll just leave this here...

Happy endings never happen in war stories.


Yeah you're right there.

I mean look at the end of WW2, the Allies certainly didn't throw a massive country wide celebration with everyone elated at the end of the war.

Oh wait.....

#131
Klijpope

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tl;dr:

1) Shepard needs to die because: she was already on borrowed time and the decisions made in order to win meant she did not deserve to live.

2) A 'dark age' is better than a return to the status quo because that was already an 'evil' set up, just less 'evil' than the reapers.

1)I personally feel that Shepard needed to die. The character was all about the struggle, the only person in the galaxy who really understood the threat they faced, and who understood the cost. This Shepard would fight until her dying breath to give the galaxy even a glimmer of hope and an end to the cycle, but she knew she'd never see it. But I think the galaxy ended up with more than hope at the end.

Consider this. Shepard survived ME1, but it would have been totally appropriate, at the end there in the Council Chamber, if she had been killed by that piece of Sovereign. She wasn't, and it was a HUZZAH! moment, but it wouldn't have been wrong for the story. Then, right at the beginning of ME2, Shepard is killed. Then resurrected; but from then on, she is on borrowed time. If you downloaded the SR1 crash site DLC, that's there to make you feel the deaths of the crew, who died while, for some reason, you cheated Death. Then in ME3, pretty much every story you overhear ends in tragedy (PTSD Asari, Londoner trying to patch up soldier, Aethyta, and so on). You can condemn entire species to exctinction - should Shepard survive if the cost was the Krogan's future or the Quarians?

(A number of people have brought up Captian Sheriden of B5, saying he did not die until long after the end of the Shadow War. However, have they forgotten that he already died on Zha'ha'dum? Only to be resurrected by a Deus Ex Machina far more egregious than the Catalyst, who then made clear he was on borrowed time from then on. And who is to say that if JSM had been able to complete his arc as intended, rather than rushing the Shadow War only to get another series, who is to say that the original (artistic!;)) intention would have had him dying at the end of the war...?)

2) But, the real reason as to why I feel the endings are hopeful is the fact that the Citadel civilisation as it existed was over. Many see this as a dark age, but it is one where all the species have an equal chance in. Was Citadel civilisation worth saving? The Asari and the Salarians had it sewn up - they'd used the Krogan and then discarded them when it blew back; they turned away the Quarians in their hour of need, however self inflicted, and then looked down on them. They only let the other species play on their terms. At least the Turians were honest about the genophage and didn't pretend to be the good guys. This is implied during the game, where the Salarians are conniving and miss the point totally, and the Asari are complacent and then pay for it. The Turians and Krogan are able to deal honestly and form a truce.

Therefore, from one perspective Citadel civilisation differs from the Reapers only in a matter of scale. The status quo had as much a dismissive attitude as to the rights of the 'lower' species as the reapers did. So doing a Snake Plisken and bringing on a year-Zero situation, to me, is more hopeful than letting the old powers just pick up where they left off.

Also, unlike LoTR and RotJ, ME is rated mature. You don't find that many 'happy endings' in R rated movies. None of the Aliens or Terminator films is really happy. Only Totall Recall and Starship Troopers could be described as happy, and there is a satirical edge to both of those endings.

... I'm gonna predict that Bruce Wayne dies at the end of The Dark Knight Rises and Joseph Gordon-Levitt's character takes over as Batman.... ;)

#132
Grimwick

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Klijpope wrote...

tl;dr:

1) Shepard needs to die because: she was already on borrowed time and the decisions made in order to win meant she did not deserve to live.

2) A 'dark age' is better than a return to the status quo because that was already an 'evil' set up, just less 'evil' than the reapers.

1)I personally feel that Shepard needed to die. 


Oh there's the problem. your personal take on Shepard's story doesn't make it the only one nor the 'right' one.

Shepard is not needed to die because he/she is living on borrowed time. That doesn't make it a fitting death any more than Shepard being alive after seeing the prothean beacon.

#133
dsl08002

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a happy ending should at least be optional to all players, and it should be determined by your choices.

#134
mikelope

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I'm not against a happy ending but ME2's not-remotely-suicidal suicide ending which many here is using as an example is not a well balanced ending. You have to metagame or make mistakes to lose people so it lessens any meaningful emotional impact of that loss. Fun and exciting as it was, to me it was just a happy ending and no more; other possibilities were just what-if scenarios you try after finishing the game. Which is not necessarily bad and I would have been okay with it with ME3, but it's more Ocean's Eleven than The Seven Samurai.

With the chose-your-own-ending scenario we have for ME3, adding a fourth option that is happy with no bad consequences to balance it out would render the other three pointless. Which is okay, I guess. For some reason, I don't care about it too much anymore.

#135
Guest_darkness reborn_*

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furryrage59 wrote...

darkness reborn wrote...

I'll just leave this here...

Happy endings never happen in war stories.


Yeah you're right there.

I mean look at the end of WW2, the Allies certainly didn't throw a massive country wide celebration with everyone elated at the end of the war.

Oh wait.....

Its not like they nuked a city to end WW2.

Oh wait....

#136
AlanC9

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Two, actually. Unless you believe that they were just doing that to scare the Russians.

#137
DeinonSlayer

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mikelope wrote...

I'm not against a happy ending but ME2's not-remotely-suicidal suicide ending which many here is using as an example is not a well balanced ending. You have to metagame or make mistakes to lose people so it lessens any meaningful emotional impact of that loss. Fun and exciting as it was, to me it was just a happy ending and no more; other possibilities were just what-if scenarios you try after finishing the game. Which is not necessarily bad and I would have been okay with it with ME3, but it's more Ocean's Eleven than The Seven Samurai.

With the chose-your-own-ending scenario we have for ME3, adding a fourth option that is happy with no bad consequences to balance it out would render the other three pointless. Which is okay, I guess. For some reason, I don't care about it too much anymore.

I don't think anyone is calling for a fourth, arbitrarily happy ending to be added in the final decision. I, too, would find that inappropriate. I think people these days are talking more about what the "Shepard Lives" ending will turn into in the extended cut.

#138
iamthedave3

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You know I hadn't thought of that. There is lots of room to expand the 'Shepherd lives' ending, isn't there?

I doubt they will, mind. I think most of the new content will be pre-endings and during, additional material to show how Joker gets where he goes, how the squadmates got back on the Normandy etc.

Spatial stuff.

#139
Grimwick

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iamthedave3 wrote...

You know I hadn't thought of that. There is lots of room to expand the 'Shepherd lives' ending, isn't there?

I doubt they will, mind. I think most of the new content will be pre-endings and during, additional material to show how Joker gets where he goes, how the squadmates got back on the Normandy etc.

Spatial stuff.


Alas, I feel you are right in this prediction. I think some closure will be given but it will be ambiguous and not enough.

As sad as it may seem I'd sacrifice Earth if Bioware gave me blue babies for it.

#140
NRieh

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(A number of people have brought up Captian Sheriden of B5, saying he did not die until long after the end of the Shadow War. However, have they forgotten that he already died on Zha'ha'dum? Only to be resurrected by a Deus Ex Machina far more egregious than the Catalyst, who then made clear he was on borrowed time from then on.

True. And do you remember what happened in last few series, which took place much after war ending, like "gone with the light" (if I remember title right) and one with TV show, and one with "resurrected" characters? Does it stands same to what we got in ME3 starting from catalyst up to the "last breath"? Somehow, I doubt anyone would shed a tear at any of 3 given colours. And static image memories of friend(Joker), teacher(Anderson) and lover(insert here) appearing last moment plus ridiculous normandy-run are not enough for bitter-sweetness, really. If it ended with harbi shot - it would still be more bittersweet, considering all those farewells.

#141
someguy1231

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I am against a happy ending in ME3 not because I dislike happy endings in general, but because Bioware built up the Reapers in such a way that it's the only way for the game to end and still have a coherent, consistent lore and without using shoddy writing devices.

Quite frankly, Bioware wrote themselves into a corner regarding the Reapers, making them far too powerful and impossible to defeat conventionally. The only Reapers we saw being taken out in the game was the one on Tuchanka by Kalros, and the one on Rannoch by the Quarian fleet. And both of those were the much smaller class of Reapers, instead of the larger ones like Sovereign or the ones in Vancouver at the start. And keep in mind there are thousands of those Reapers invading the galaxy. Any attempt at defeating them unconventionally would just reek of a deus ex machina, which is exactly what I felt the Crucible/Catalyst to be.

If forced to choose between a happy ending which relies on bad writing techniques (deus ex machinas, contradicting your own lore, etc) and a sad, depressing ending which makes sense, I'll always take the latter. Too many people here are just so determined to get their "happily ever after with my space waifu" ending or their "Shepard is a hero! Cheesy medal ceremony ripped off from Star Wars NAO!" ending that they're willing to overlook shoddy writing to get them.

Modifié par someguy1231, 13 mai 2012 - 08:01 .


#142
Sgt Stryker

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To me, a happy ending doesn't have to entail blue babies or a house on Rannoch or anything like that. If the Reapers are defeated, the galaxy has a chance to rebuild in a reasonable amount of time, Shepard's actions throughout all three games are acknowledged somehow, and it was written well (not like the current ending!), then that would be sufficient for me.

#143
Klijpope

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Grimwick wrote...

Oh there's the problem. your personal take on Shepard's story doesn't make it the only one nor the 'right' one.

Shepard is not needed to die because he/she is living on borrowed time. That doesn't make it a fitting death any more than Shepard being alive after seeing the prothean beacon.


And that's all I can do, or you can do do, on a forum. Offer my own opinion. However, it tends to be better for discussion if one tries to justify one's opinion with explanations.

I made a careful point to emphasise it was just my opinion because folk on here seem to think what they say is factual. All we can do is offer our reasoning and argue it out. Dismissing my opinion because it is an opinion seems to be self defeating on a discussion board.

#144
Klijpope

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Nrieh wrote...

(A number of people have brought up Captian Sheriden of B5, saying he did not die until long after the end of the Shadow War. However, have they forgotten that he already died on Zha'ha'dum? Only to be resurrected by a Deus Ex Machina far more egregious than the Catalyst, who then made clear he was on borrowed time from then on.

True. And do you remember what happened in last few series, which took place much after war ending, like "gone with the light" (if I remember title right) and one with TV show, and one with "resurrected" characters? Does it stands same to what we got in ME3 starting from catalyst up to the "last breath"? Somehow, I doubt anyone would shed a tear at any of 3 given colours. And static image memories of friend(Joker), teacher(Anderson) and lover(insert here) appearing last moment plus ridiculous normandy-run are not enough for bitter-sweetness, really. If it ended with harbi shot - it would still be more bittersweet, considering all those farewells.


Never said the ending was clear or well executed. :happy: I did, however, choke up a little as my Shep's face burnt up when she dived into the beam.

I do not think B5 is a good example of a well executed ending. It goes on for far too long (like one and a half series) and ties everything up too neatly, it feels more like fanfic. S'pose that's the problem when you've completed the story but you have to keep it running for another year to keep the suits happy...

#145
Chapity

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How bout because a happy ending would have taken away from the gravity of defeating a 37 million year old genocidal army of robot cathulhu gods? Makes them look not so powerful if you ride of into sunset

#146
Chrillze

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Chapity wrote...

How bout because a happy ending would have taken away from the gravity of defeating a 37 million year old genocidal army of robot cathulhu gods? Makes them look not so powerful if you ride of into sunset

so you mean that the destruction of earth, palaven and thessia didn't make the reapers look powerful?

#147
iamthedave3

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The funny thing about all of this is that while I hate everything about the ending... it's actually a happy ending for my Shepherd. So I sort of got my happy ending and hated it anyway.

Huh.

Amazing what bad editing can do to someone's enjoyment of a thing.

#148
iamthedave3

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Chapity wrote...

How bout because a happy ending would have taken away from the gravity of defeating a 37 million year old genocidal army of robot cathulhu gods? Makes them look not so powerful if you ride of into sunset


They're not genocidal cthulhu gods. They're 'harvesting' us for 'our own good'. Sheesh. The reapers are the good guys here.

#149
o Ventus

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Chapity wrote...

How bout because a happy ending would have taken away from the gravity of defeating a 37 million year old genocidal army of robot cathulhu gods? Makes them look not so powerful if you ride of into sunset


Throughout the game, you visibly lose 7 or so homeworlds (Earth, Rannoch, Khar'shan, Irune, Dekuuna, Palaven, Thessia), maybe more. All of those homeworlds are important in their own fashion. You lose numerous characters as casualties (Thane, Mordin, Legion, any other ME2 character). The estimated casualty count by the end of the game can easily go into the billions.

What's this about the Reapers not looking so powerful? Also, it's "Cthulhu", not "cathulhu", and they were never portrayed as gods.

#150
Mr.House

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Shepard already died once, making her die again is stupid. Also there should be an option for a happy or at least a bittersweet ending, not what ME3 gave us.