739 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

WHO HERE THINKS THAT "FULL REAPER CONTROL" = INDOCTRINATION?

-KevShep
-Batman Turian
-balance5050
-ohupthis
-Sisterofshane
-Dreman9999
-Lookout1390

[CavScout]

Sisterofshane wrote...
Once again, you won't support your claim (ie I said that the Codex/Wiki) was wrong (or in error).

FATCS:
Indocrination is not mentioned in the Final Hours app you post so often.
Nothing in the Codex states that the only way to be under "full Reaper control" is by indoctrination.

These facts are indisputable. Why do you even try?

I don't think that is correct.  There is a part of the Final Hours App in which the Devs talked about wanting to implement a scene in which Shepard (during a playable part, not a cinematic cutscene) was indoctrinated, but they couldn't make the mechanics work.

Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.

Modifié par CavScout, 13 mai 2012 - 05:18 .

[Sisterofshane]

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
And it's perfectly valid to believe in a literal interpretation of the ending, but what makes me mad with CavScout is that he comes into the Lions Den and pokes it stick to wake it up, but doesn't bring any actual meat for the Lion to chew.

Why bother with meat when the cave only has rats?

You're the only rat here my friend, and to the Lions you are starting to look like a tasty snack.

[Iconoclaste]

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
[*]indoctrination doesn't have to be mentioned when it is alluded to by a synonym phrase in the app

[*]indoctrination is full reaper control. The subject may have some free will if slowly indoctrinated or be a complete slave if quickly indoctrinated. Either way they are under the Reapers sway, believe what the Reapers tell them, and the Reapers have complete control unless the subject is slowly indoctrinated and has enough strong will to break it temporarily. Ignoring this is to ignore the lore of the ME universe entirely, which is illogical.

[*]Also you dodged my questions again. It's looking bad for you.

[/list]
1)Indoctrination isn't mentioned in the Final Hours app, do you agree?
2)How can indoctrination be both "full reaper control" and also leave the subject with "some free will"?
3)Ask a question germane to the discussion then.

[*]1. Indoctrination is a sublte process that takes time...no person have you ever met who was indoctrinated, other than a full-grown Asari matriarch who lasted a few seconds, go "Oh I'm indoctrinated, or "uh oh, I may be indoctrinated. This is explained clearly in ME1 and 2[*]2 Because you aren't fully indoctrinated when it first hits you, so are still a remnant of yourself until time slowly allows it to consume, once again, clearly explained in the codex[*]3. Answer our question

[*]I'll get you on this one alone.
[*]If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

[CavScout]

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Why bother with meat when the cave only has rats?

You're the only rat here my friend, and to the Lions you are starting to look like a tasty snack.

Like many MMOs you're just here to help the players level up.

[Iconoclaste]

balance5050 wrote...

WHO HERE THINKS THAT "FULL REAPER CONTROL" = INDOCTRINATION?

-KevShep
-Batman Turian
-balance5050
-ohupthis
-Sisterofshane
-Dreman9999
-Lookout1390

I have the whole list if you intend to call upon all of them. But I remind you that a number of supporters has nothing to do with the solidity of an argument. That is just literal bullying, proving your worth.

[CavScout]

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
That IT isn't in the ending of ME3 at all.

It's one thing to argue what Bioware intends to do with the EC - it's another thing to simply refute a metaphorical interpretation to the ending of a story, on the basis that you did not like the metaphor.

Unless Bioware comes out and with a statement out right disputing this interpretation of the ending as it was presented (which they might choose to let the EC do all of the talking), there is nothing to make IT any less valid then your own interpretation of the endings.

I don't "refute" IT because I dislike it, IT gets refuted because IT Evangelist claim proof and evidence where there is none.

PS: An "interpretation" not specifically debunked by BW doesn't mean it is on par with the ending supported by BW.

That really isa stupid reason to dispute IT.  Just be neutral, not attack something you see some rationality in.

I don't see any rationality in IT.

[Lookout1390]

CavScout wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Even if true, it doesn't make my statement any less true.

Which is?

If you're referring to the "no it's not the only means of control, even though I haven't provided evidence even though you have given me evidence" statement, then I surely hope you can do better.

The claim was, "the only means of full reaper control is indoctrination and it says so in the Codex". That was challenged and no evidence has been offered to support it.

I can't stop you from pretending otherwise.

How many other forms of 'reaper control' are mentioned in the codex?

Books?

Games?

Comics?

Still waiting for that answer.

[BatmanTurian]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
[*]indoctrination doesn't have to be mentioned when it is alluded to by a synonym phrase in the app

[*]indoctrination is full reaper control. The subject may have some free will if slowly indoctrinated or be a complete slave if quickly indoctrinated. Either way they are under the Reapers sway, believe what the Reapers tell them, and the Reapers have complete control unless the subject is slowly indoctrinated and has enough strong will to break it temporarily. Ignoring this is to ignore the lore of the ME universe entirely, which is illogical.

[*]Also you dodged my questions again. It's looking bad for you.

[/list]
1)Indoctrination isn't mentioned in the Final Hours app, do you agree?
2)How can indoctrination be both "full reaper control" and also leave the subject with "some free will"?
3)Ask a question germane to the discussion then.

[*]1. Indoctrination is a sublte process that takes time...no person have you ever met who was indoctrinated, other than a full-grown Asari matriarch who lasted a few seconds, go "Oh I'm indoctrinated, or "uh oh, I may be indoctrinated. This is explained clearly in ME1 and 2[*]2 Because you aren't fully indoctrinated when it first hits you, so are still a remnant of yourself until time slowly allows it to consume, once again, clearly explained in the codex[*]3. Answer our question

[*]I'll get you on this one alone.
[*]If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

[*]except that Shepard has been exposed to more reaper artifacts than anyone else alive other than TIM. The ending is just a ramping up of the process. Shepard is only indoctrinated if he gives in to the Reaper's view of the world. Otherwise he still has full free will until that moment.

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
indoctrination doesn't have to be mentioned when it is alluded to by a synonym phrase in the app


indoctrination is full reaper control. The subject may have some free will if slowly indoctrinated or be a complete slave if quickly indoctrinated. Either way they are under the Reapers sway, believe what the Reapers tell them, and the Reapers have complete control unless the subject is slowly indoctrinated and has enough strong will to break it temporarily. Ignoring this is to ignore the lore of the ME universe entirely, which is illogical.


Also you dodged my questions again. It's looking bad for you.

[/list]
1)Indoctrination isn't mentioned in the Final Hours app, do you agree?
2)How can indoctrination be both "full reaper control" and also leave the subject with "some free will"?
3)Ask a question germane to the discussion then.

1. Indoctrination is a sublte process that takes time...no person have you ever met who was indoctrinated, other than a full-grown Asari matriarch who lasted a few seconds, go "Oh I'm indoctrinated, or "uh oh, I may be indoctrinated. This is explained clearly in ME1 and 2
2 Because you aren't fully indoctrinated when it first hits you, so are still a remnant of yourself until time slowly allows it to consume, once again, clearly explained in the codex
3. Answer our question

I'll get you on this one alone.

If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

Sigh, obviously it was still subtle because he/you were still fooled.

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

WHO HERE THINKS THAT "FULL REAPER CONTROL" = INDOCTRINATION?

-KevShep
-Batman Turian
-balance5050
-ohupthis
-Sisterofshane
-Dreman9999
-Lookout1390

I have the whole list if you intend to call upon all of them. But I remind you that a number of supporters has nothing to do with the solidity of an argument. That is just literal bullying, proving your worth.

I'm taking a simple poll of the room yo.

[Sisterofshane]

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Once again, you won't support your claim (ie I said that the Codex/Wiki) was wrong (or in error).

FATCS:
Indocrination is not mentioned in the Final Hours app you post so often.
Nothing in the Codex states that the only way to be under "full Reaper control" is by indoctrination.

These facts are indisputable. Why do you even try?

I don't think that is correct.  There is a part of the Final Hours App in which the Devs talked about wanting to implement a scene in which Shepard (during a playable part, not a cinematic cutscene) was indoctrinated, but they couldn't make the mechanics work.

Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.

Here.

To Quote the Specific Passage:

On Deciding the End of the Game said:

The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still
much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various
ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for
Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'



In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end
of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man,
originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the
writers would have more time to finesse the ending.



And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).


Reaper Control = Indoctrination.

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 13 mai 2012 - 05:23 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

[*]indoctrination doesn't have to be mentioned when it is alluded to by a synonym phrase in the app


[*]indoctrination is full reaper control. The subject may have some free will if slowly indoctrinated or be a complete slave if quickly indoctrinated. Either way they are under the Reapers sway, believe what the Reapers tell them, and the Reapers have complete control unless the subject is slowly indoctrinated and has enough strong will to break it temporarily. Ignoring this is to ignore the lore of the ME universe entirely, which is illogical.


[*]Also you dodged my questions again. It's looking bad for you.

[/list]
1)Indoctrination isn't mentioned in the Final Hours app, do you agree?
2)How can indoctrination be both "full reaper control" and also leave the subject with "some free will"?
3)Ask a question germane to the discussion then.

[*]1. Indoctrination is a sublte process that takes time...no person have you ever met who was indoctrinated, other than a full-grown Asari matriarch who lasted a few seconds, go "Oh I'm indoctrinated, or "uh oh, I may be indoctrinated. This is explained clearly in ME1 and 2
[*]2 Because you aren't fully indoctrinated when it first hits you, so are still a remnant of yourself until time slowly allows it to consume, once again, clearly explained in the codex
[*]3. Answer our question

[*]I'll get you on this one alone.

[*]If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

[*]Uh, what now? please elaborate, this could get interesting.

[BatmanTurian]

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
indoctrination doesn't have to be mentioned when it is alluded to by a synonym phrase in the app


indoctrination is full reaper control. The subject may have some free will if slowly indoctrinated or be a complete slave if quickly indoctrinated. Either way they are under the Reapers sway, believe what the Reapers tell them, and the Reapers have complete control unless the subject is slowly indoctrinated and has enough strong will to break it temporarily. Ignoring this is to ignore the lore of the ME universe entirely, which is illogical.


Also you dodged my questions again. It's looking bad for you.

[/list]
1)Indoctrination isn't mentioned in the Final Hours app, do you agree?
2)How can indoctrination be both "full reaper control" and also leave the subject with "some free will"?
3)Ask a question germane to the discussion then.

1. Indoctrination is a sublte process that takes time...no person have you ever met who was indoctrinated, other than a full-grown Asari matriarch who lasted a few seconds, go "Oh I'm indoctrinated, or "uh oh, I may be indoctrinated. This is explained clearly in ME1 and 2
2 Because you aren't fully indoctrinated when it first hits you, so are still a remnant of yourself until time slowly allows it to consume, once again, clearly explained in the codex
3. Answer our question

I'll get you on this one alone.

If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

Sigh, obviously it was still subtle because he/you were still fooled.

Admittedly, it's hard to admit to being tricked if you don't like the trick or didn't realize it happened, which is what this boils down to in the interpretation. The literal interpretation makes far less sense though. Bad writing? Maybe, but I sincerely doubt it.

[CavScout]

Iconoclaste wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

WHO HERE THINKS THAT "FULL REAPER CONTROL" = INDOCTRINATION?

-KevShep
-Batman Turian
-balance5050
-ohupthis
-Sisterofshane
-Dreman9999
-Lookout1390

I have the whole list if you intend to call upon all of them. But I remind you that a number of supporters has nothing to do with the solidity of an argument. That is just literal bullying, proving your worth.

Argumentum ad populum. The fallacies just flow from IT supporters.

[Lookout1390]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
[*]indoctrination doesn't have to be mentioned when it is alluded to by a synonym phrase in the app

[*]indoctrination is full reaper control. The subject may have some free will if slowly indoctrinated or be a complete slave if quickly indoctrinated. Either way they are under the Reapers sway, believe what the Reapers tell them, and the Reapers have complete control unless the subject is slowly indoctrinated and has enough strong will to break it temporarily. Ignoring this is to ignore the lore of the ME universe entirely, which is illogical.

[*]Also you dodged my questions again. It's looking bad for you.

[/list]
1)Indoctrination isn't mentioned in the Final Hours app, do you agree?
2)How can indoctrination be both "full reaper control" and also leave the subject with "some free will"?
3)Ask a question germane to the discussion then.

[*]1. Indoctrination is a sublte process that takes time...no person have you ever met who was indoctrinated, other than a full-grown Asari matriarch who lasted a few seconds, go "Oh I'm indoctrinated, or "uh oh, I may be indoctrinated. This is explained clearly in ME1 and 2[*]2 Because you aren't fully indoctrinated when it first hits you, so are still a remnant of yourself until time slowly allows it to consume, once again, clearly explained in the codex[*]3. Answer our question

[*]I'll get you on this one alone.
If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

It's the final charge on the only way of even remotely having a chance of defeating the Reapers.

Your entire squad around you has gotten completely mowed down, and you have been severely burnt, and shot in the shoulder.

That's quite a damper on the morale, and pretty disheartening.

A.K.A. "Giving in"

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Once again, you won't support your claim (ie I said that the Codex/Wiki) was wrong (or in error).

FATCS:
Indocrination is not mentioned in the Final Hours app you post so often.
Nothing in the Codex states that the only way to be under "full Reaper control" is by indoctrination.

These facts are indisputable. Why do you even try?

I don't think that is correct.  There is a part of the Final Hours App in which the Devs talked about wanting to implement a scene in which Shepard (during a playable part, not a cinematic cutscene) was indoctrinated, but they couldn't make the mechanics work.

Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.

Here.

To Quote the Specific Passage:

On Deciding the End of the Game said:

The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still
much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various
ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for
Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'



In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end
of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man,
originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the
writers would have more time to finesse the ending.



And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).


Reaper Control = Indoctrination.

Careful now, you're going to give someone "*evidence*", in 3, 2, 1.

[KevShep]

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
That IT isn't in the ending of ME3 at all.

It's one thing to argue what Bioware intends to do with the EC - it's another thing to simply refute a metaphorical interpretation to the ending of a story, on the basis that you did not like the metaphor.

Unless Bioware comes out and with a statement out right disputing this interpretation of the ending as it was presented (which they might choose to let the EC do all of the talking), there is nothing to make IT any less valid then your own interpretation of the endings.

I don't "refute" IT because I dislike it, IT gets refuted because IT Evangelist claim proof and evidence where there is none.

PS: An "interpretation" not specifically debunked by BW doesn't mean it is on par with the ending supported by BW.

That really isa stupid reason to dispute IT.  Just be neutral, not attack something you see some rationality in.

I don't see any rationality in IT.

Where the H*** have you been? Your saying that there is no evidence of I.T.?  here we go yet again,   

[balance5050]

Unbiased poll done!

Does "full reaper control" = indoctrination

Yes - 7
No - 2

[BatmanTurian]

KevShep wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
That IT isn't in the ending of ME3 at all.

It's one thing to argue what Bioware intends to do with the EC - it's another thing to simply refute a metaphorical interpretation to the ending of a story, on the basis that you did not like the metaphor.

Unless Bioware comes out and with a statement out right disputing this interpretation of the ending as it was presented (which they might choose to let the EC do all of the talking), there is nothing to make IT any less valid then your own interpretation of the endings.

I don't "refute" IT because I dislike it, IT gets refuted because IT Evangelist claim proof and evidence where there is none.

PS: An "interpretation" not specifically debunked by BW doesn't mean it is on par with the ending supported by BW.

That really isa stupid reason to dispute IT.  Just be neutral, not attack something you see some rationality in.

I don't see any rationality in IT.

Where the H*** have you been? Your saying that there is no evidence of I.T.?  here we go yet again,   

Kev, please calm down.

[UrgentArchengel]

So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

[CavScout]

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Even if true, it doesn't make my statement any less true.

Which is?

If you're referring to the "no it's not the only means of control, even though I haven't provided evidence even though you have given me evidence" statement, then I surely hope you can do better.

The claim was, "the only means of full reaper control is indoctrination and it says so in the Codex". That was challenged and no evidence has been offered to support it.

I can't stop you from pretending otherwise.

How many other forms of 'reaper control' are mentioned in the codex?
Books?
Games?
Comics?
Still waiting for that answer.

The claim was the Codex/Wiki proved that "full reaper control" means only indoctrination. It has yet to be shown to be correct. Asking a deflecting question doesn't add merit to ones claim.

You might as well explain, "I love lamp!" At least that would be humorous.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
[*]indoctrination doesn't have to be mentioned when it is alluded to by a synonym phrase in the app

[*]indoctrination is full reaper control. The subject may have some free will if slowly indoctrinated or be a complete slave if quickly indoctrinated. Either way they are under the Reapers sway, believe what the Reapers tell them, and the Reapers have complete control unless the subject is slowly indoctrinated and has enough strong will to break it temporarily. Ignoring this is to ignore the lore of the ME universe entirely, which is illogical.

[*]Also you dodged my questions again. It's looking bad for you.

[/list]
1)Indoctrination isn't mentioned in the Final Hours app, do you agree?
2)How can indoctrination be both "full reaper control" and also leave the subject with "some free will"?
3)Ask a question germane to the discussion then.

[*]1. Indoctrination is a sublte process that takes time...no person have you ever met who was indoctrinated, other than a full-grown Asari matriarch who lasted a few seconds, go "Oh I'm indoctrinated, or "uh oh, I may be indoctrinated. This is explained clearly in ME1 and 2[*]2 Because you aren't fully indoctrinated when it first hits you, so are still a remnant of yourself until time slowly allows it to consume, once again, clearly explained in the codex[*]3. Answer our question

[*]I'll get you on this one alone.
[*]If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

"...stay too long neart he ship(Sovergin)...You  feel it!!!"Rana Thanoptis ME1.1:25  

What you missing that every person who is indoctrinated at one point notice that something is wrong....But don't know what it is. This happens if the stages the reaper start to have more connection to the inductee. The cover is what make indoctrination subtle in the later stages till they start influencing the persons thoughts. It's a distraction till they get control. TO be subtle you have to do subtle actions, your not just subtle automatically...This is a mental change that turns to a physical change...They have to do subtle actions.

[Lookout1390]

CavScout wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

WHO HERE THINKS THAT "FULL REAPER CONTROL" = INDOCTRINATION?

-KevShep
-Batman Turian
-balance5050
-ohupthis
-Sisterofshane
-Dreman9999
-Lookout1390

I have the whole list if you intend to call upon all of them. But I remind you that a number of supporters has nothing to do with the solidity of an argument. That is just literal bullying, proving your worth.

Argumentum ad populum. The fallacies just flow from IT supporters.

I prefer "read and understand the codex" as a more appropriate title.

Course I would love a citation from where you guys are getting your news, because it sure as hell isn't the codex..

[CavScout]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
[*]I'll get you on this one alone.

[*]If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

[*]except that Shepard has been exposed to more reaper artifacts than anyone else alive other than TIM. The ending is just a ramping up of the process. Shepard is only indoctrinated if he gives in to the Reaper's view of the world. Otherwise he still has full free will until that moment.

[/list]You presume that any contact means indocrination. Just because one surfer has more time in the water doesn't mean he has been bitten by a shark....