739 réponses à ce sujet

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly.  Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.

Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses.  Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.

Come on, guys...

The hell, so "full reaper control", doesn't mean indoctrination?

You've just come to that realization?

[dreman9999]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
I'll get you on this one alone.

If indoc is "subtle" then there is no point in pretending Shepard is "indoctrinated" by a laser beam at the base of the conduit.

Sigh, obviously it was still subtle because he/you were still fooled.

Iconoclaste you've discovered the most insidious part of Indoctrination Theory. Anything that can be used against Indoctrination theory is in fact part of Indoctrination Theory. Nothing can be negative to Indoctrination Theory.

"Nothing can be negative to Indoctrination Theory." 

Because indoctrination is part of the game, why would the authors write write something that contradicts his own narrative?

Who can't take a non-falsifiable theory seriously?

Theory of relitivity.

[jules_vern18]

Sisterofshane wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly.  Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.

Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses.  Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.

Come on, guys...

The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).

If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate.  All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!").  This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.

I see.  And where exactly in the lore does it say that Indoctrination induces hallucinations?

[BatmanTurian]

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.

Here.

To Quote the Specific Passage:

On Deciding the End of the Game said:

The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still
much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various
ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for
Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end
of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man,
originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the
writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

Reaper Control = Indoctrination.

Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.

I can't take you seriously when you can't be intellectually honest and admit that the phrase is an obvious synonym.

He has a valid point.  You have decided that "reaper control" means "indoctrination" when we have seen other means of reaper control throughout the series (collectors, TIM forcing you to shoot Anderson).

If the devs meant Indoctrination, they would have said Indoctrination.

And now, a brief definition of indoctrination:

Noun1.indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
Now tell me...is indoctrination a synonym for control?

That meaning is not what it means in the ME universe. Indoctrination is mind control and manipulation through infrasonic and ultrasonic sound and manipulation of electro-magnetic fields. This is how they control organics.

Are we seriously to the point where we are arguing what Indoctrination actually is? Because it's explained quite thoroughly in the Codex and we have seen individuals dealing with its effects.

[DJBare]

I guess I knew when I started this thread it would become convoluted, you folk just cannot keep it simple can you.

[Sisterofshane]

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.

LOL, ok I can agree on semantics.

So, tell me which other methods of Reaper Control could Casey be talking about?  Because when you can produce one simple example in the game/other media in which the Reapers controlled an individual who was not indoctrinated, I will believe that they were not citing Indoctrination in the sentence above.

It is not "semantics" when something is claimed to have been used when it has not.

Anderson and Shep.

I'm beginning to believe that you have a problem with taking what's been said as anything more then face value.  It's been said here before that most of us believe "full reaper control" to be synonymous with "Indoctrination".  You say it is not so, and then offer no evidence as to why it isn't so.

[CavScout]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.

I can't take you seriously when you can't be intellectually honest and admit that the phrase is an obvious synonym.

You can't let go because you think it's evidence of IT.. therefore based on your need for IT to be true you need the passage to mean something to support IT.

[dreman9999]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly.  Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.

Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses.  Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.

Come on, guys...

The hell, so "full reaper control", doesn't mean indoctrination?

You've just come to that realization?

So something that can only happen at the end of indoctrination is not indoctrination?

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.

LOL, ok I can agree on semantics.

So, tell me which other methods of Reaper Control could Casey be talking about?  Because when you can produce one simple example in the game/other media in which the Reapers controlled an individual who was not indoctrinated, I will believe that they were not citing Indoctrination in the sentence above.

It is not "semantics" when something is claimed to have been used when it has not.

Anderson and Shep.

You are arguing semantics, Full reaper control when done upon Shepard HAS TO BE indoctrination.

Modifié par balance5050, 13 mai 2012 - 05:52 .

[Iconoclaste]

Sisterofshane wrote...

The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).

If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate.  All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!").  This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.

Well, that's what Shepard has been doing with TIM all the way. TIM didn't wait until the end to try to convince Shepard, and Shepard was never "immune" to suggestions from TIM. He's still arguing in the end, and from what we saw happened to him, he's suffering enough to be a weak prey, but still he resists. That "full Reaper control" theme cannot be proved to show "indoctrination", at most it can show an "attempt", but as soon as TIM dies, IT also dies in its present formulation. Where are the "Reapers" controlling Shepard at that moment? And before someone answers "he's still dreaming", then why did the Catalyts bring him up the elevator, to ultimately give a dumb hint about the "destroy" possibility? This cannot be the "Shepard is resisting" proposition, since he never before set foot on this platform and doesn't even know if anything can be done against the Reapers at that moment. If the Catalyst had "Reaper interest above all", he could have simply let Shepard bleed to death, or dream without any clue, or dream of darkness instead of risking to wake him up, etc.

[Sisterofshane]

DJBare wrote...

I guess I knew when I started this thread it would become convoluted, you folk just cannot keep it simple can you.

LOL, no one here can agree that IT is the metaphorical analysis of the endings.

[balance5050]

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly.  Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.

Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses.  Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.

Come on, guys...

The hell, so "full reaper control", doesn't mean indoctrination?

You've just come to that realization?

So something that can only happen at the end of indoctrination is not indoctrination?

/sarcasm bro

[BatmanTurian]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly.  Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.

Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses.  Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.

Come on, guys...

The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).

If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate.  All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!").  This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.

I see.  And where exactly in the lore does it say that Indoctrination induces hallucinations?

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination

"The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly
understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic
field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate
areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect
varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer
headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or
paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.
Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to
amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.
"

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...
So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

Are collectors considered "indocrinated"? Husks?

So you're saying that they were playing with the idea of Shepard becoming a husk?

Where did I say that? I am asking if husks (and the like) are considered indocrinated or something else. Why are you so defensive?

[Sisterofshane]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly.  Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.

Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses.  Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.

Come on, guys...

The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).

If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate.  All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!").  This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.

I see.  And where exactly in the lore does it say that Indoctrination induces hallucinations?

Directly in the codex for Indoctrination

[CavScout]

KevShep wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KevShep wrote...

CavScout wrote...
I don't see any rationality in IT.

Where the H*** have you been? Your saying that there is no evidence of I.T.?  here we go yet again,   

So all the talk about all opinions being equally valid only applies to IT supporters and their opinions?

No, but when you dont put ANY evidence into your oun reason why the game IS at face value then your opinion is means nothing!

LOL. Hypocrites.

[balance5050]

GOOD JOB EVERYONE!

Understanding the fundamental of IT has been on the front page for 4 hours straight!

KEEP IT UP!

[jules_vern18]

balance5050 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.

Here.

To Quote the Specific Passage:

On Deciding the End of the Game said:

The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still
much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various
ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for
Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end
of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man,
originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the
writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

Reaper Control = Indoctrination.

Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.

I can't take you seriously when you can't be intellectually honest and admit that the phrase is an obvious synonym.

He has a valid point.  You have decided that "reaper control" means "indoctrination" when we have seen other means of reaper control throughout the series (collectors, TIM forcing you to shoot Anderson).

If the devs meant Indoctrination, they would have said Indoctrination.

And now, a brief definition of indoctrination:

Noun1.indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
Now tell me...is indoctrination a synonym for control?

So you're saying that they were playing with the idea of Shepard becoming a husk?

"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks." 

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk 

I'm saying that they might have been looking to have a reaper do to Shepard in-game what TIM does to him in the TIM/Shep/Anderson dialogue sequence. 

IE it was just an idea they were going with and decided against it during the course of development.  It means nothing.

That's right everyone...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  But until you can accept that, I would suggest an underrated Jim Carrey movie called "the Number 23."  Might hit close to home for some of you

[BatmanTurian]

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.

I can't take you seriously when you can't be intellectually honest and admit that the phrase is an obvious synonym.

You can't let go because you think it's evidence of IT.. therefore based on your need for IT to be true you need the passage to mean something to support IT.

I only want you to admit a fact. You can't admit a fact because it hurts your argument. Therefore you are dodging. I'm finished arguing with you. You are very intellectually dishonest and not worth debating.

[CavScout]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...
So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

Are collectors considered "indocrinated"? Husks?

They're the remnants of an indoctrinated race (the protheans), mutated and cloned over 50,000 years as shock troops. You should know this if you played ME2. They have no will other than Harbinger's.

I don't consider them to be "indoctrinated", by the normal use of the term, either. I am asking others their perspective. Odd, you guys are automatically on the defensive if you feel threated by questions.

[dreman9999]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly.  Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.

Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses.  Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.

Come on, guys...

The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).

If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate.  All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!").  This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.

I see.  And where exactly in the lore does it say that Indoctrination induces hallucinations?

1. Implantation is a typeof indoctination. Direct control can happen with normal indoctriation when the fore mid is cut off from the hind...It's not as power full  as implatation.
2.  http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

[BatmanTurian]

jules_vern18 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.

Here.

To Quote the Specific Passage:

On Deciding the End of the Game said:

The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still
much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various
ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for
Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end
of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man,
originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the
writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

Reaper Control = Indoctrination.

Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.

I can't take you seriously when you can't be intellectually honest and admit that the phrase is an obvious synonym.

He has a valid point.  You have decided that "reaper control" means "indoctrination" when we have seen other means of reaper control throughout the series (collectors, TIM forcing you to shoot Anderson).

If the devs meant Indoctrination, they would have said Indoctrination.

And now, a brief definition of indoctrination:

Noun1.indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
Now tell me...is indoctrination a synonym for control?

So you're saying that they were playing with the idea of Shepard becoming a husk?

"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks." 

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk 

I'm saying that they might have been looking to have a reaper do to Shepard in-game what TIM does to him in the TIM/Shep/Anderson dialogue sequence. 

IE it was just an idea they were going with and decided against it during the course of development.  It means nothing.

That's right everyone...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  But until you can accept that, I would suggest an underrated Jim Carrey movie called "the Number 23."  Might hit close to home for some of you

I would suggest English Lit 101. Might help understand things better.

[dreman9999]

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CavScout wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...
So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?

I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...

Are collectors considered "indocrinated"? Husks?

They're the remnants of an indoctrinated race (the protheans), mutated and cloned over 50,000 years as shock troops. You should know this if you played ME2. They have no will other than Harbinger's.

I don't consider them to be "indoctrinated", by the normal use of the term, either. I am asking others their perspective. Odd, you guys are automatically on the defensive if you feel threated by questions.

Dude, implatation is indoctrination as well. ME:retribution is all about this. 

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...He has a valid point.  You have decided that "reaper control" means "indoctrination" when we have seen other means of reaper control throughout the series (collectors, TIM forcing you to shoot Anderson).

If the devs meant Indoctrination, they would have said Indoctrination.

And now, a brief definition of indoctrination:

Noun1.indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
Now tell me...is indoctrination a synonym for control?

So you're saying that they were playing with the idea of Shepard becoming a husk?

Holy Straw man Batman!

[Sisterofshane]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).

If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate.  All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!").  This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.

Well, that's what Shepard has been doing with TIM all the way. TIM didn't wait until the end to try to convince Shepard, and Shepard was never "immune" to suggestions from TIM. He's still arguing in the end, and from what we saw happened to him, he's suffering enough to be a weak prey, but still he resists. That "full Reaper control" theme cannot be proved to show "indoctrination", at most it can show an "attempt", but as soon as TIM dies, IT also dies in its present formulation. Where are the "Reapers" controlling Shepard at that moment? And before someone answers "he's still dreaming", then why did the Catalyts bring him up the elevator, to ultimately give a dumb hint about the "destroy" possibility? This cannot be the "Shepard is resisting" proposition, since he never before set foot on this platform and doesn't even know if anything can be done against the Reapers at that moment. If the Catalyst had "Reaper interest above all", he could have simply let Shepard bleed to death, or dream without any clue, or dream of darkness instead of risking to wake him up, etc.

The problem with your argument is that it assumes that, within the "dream", that TIM is still actually real, and is performing real world actions.  In IT, TIM appears as a metaphorical representation of the Reapers attempting to break Shepard's will (which is Represented by Anderson).  Therefore, TIM shooting himself in the head is the failure of the Reaper attempt to break Shepard (by allowing him to Kill Anderson).