DJBare wrote...
My thanks to CavScout for keeping the thread afloat, much appreciated.
I have a question for others, this thread was never about the clues for IT, it's was about the fundamental of IT in that everything that happened after London was not real, so why are people discussing the citadel exploding?, according to the fundamental of IT these things never happened.
But every sign of indoctrination is in that scene. If a cigar is acigar...It still point to IT.jules_vern18 wrote...
balance5050 wrote...
jules_vern18 wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
CavScout wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
CavScout wrote...
Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.
Here.
To Quote the Specific Passage:
On Deciding the End of the Game said:
The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still
much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various
ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for
Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'
In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end
of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man,
originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the
writers would have more time to finesse the ending.
And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).
Reaper Control = Indoctrination.
Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.
I can't take you seriously when you can't be intellectually honest and admit that the phrase is an obvious synonym.
He has a valid point. You have decided that "reaper control" means "indoctrination" when we have seen other means of reaper control throughout the series (collectors, TIM forcing you to shoot Anderson).
If the devs meant Indoctrination, they would have said Indoctrination.
And now, a brief definition of indoctrination:
Noun1.indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
Now tell me...is indoctrination a synonym for control?
So you're saying that they were playing with the idea of Shepard becoming a husk?
"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk
I'm saying that they might have been looking to have a reaper do to Shepard in-game what TIM does to him in the TIM/Shep/Anderson dialogue sequence.
IE it was just an idea they were going with and decided against it during the course of development. It means nothing.
That's right everyone...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But until you can accept that, I would suggest an underrated Jim Carrey movie called "the Number 23." Might hit close to home for some of you
BatmanTurian wrote...
CavScout wrote...
What does the ability of breaking out of indoctrination have to do with the point being argued? The claim, again, is that "total reaper control" can only mean indoctrination.Lookout1390 wrote...
CavScout wrote...
The claim was the Codex/Wiki proved that "full reaper control" means only indoctrination. It has yet to be shown to be correct. Asking a deflecting question doesn't add merit to ones claim.
You might as well explain, "I love lamp!" At least that would be humorous.
How many people have you met break indoctrination?
None
Because they are under control
Why would they need another form of control, when indoctrination works very efficiently?
What other forms of control have the Reapere exerted in the series?
Besides, I can think of three people who broke "indocrination" maybe more.
AGAIN I ask you, what is the dues ex machina that allows Reapers to control organics other than slow indoctrination, turning organics into husks, or making a species into a Reaper?
And again, the making up of "facts" begins.balance5050 wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
The control is not "full" if the mind evades it. You have the right to make an inference, but you cannot call that a "fact". I don't expect the writers to be more or less "precise" about their intent on a scrap of paper they possibly never intended to be released.balance5050 wrote...
The hell, so "full reaper control", doesn't mean indoctrination?
Right, FULL reaper control is mind AND body at the same time.
Face value = Just body
IT = Just mind
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT.social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12023755Sisterofshane wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
Well, that's what Shepard has been doing with TIM all the way. TIM didn't wait until the end to try to convince Shepard, and Shepard was never "immune" to suggestions from TIM. He's still arguing in the end, and from what we saw happened to him, he's suffering enough to be a weak prey, but still he resists. That "full Reaper control" theme cannot be proved to show "indoctrination", at most it can show an "attempt", but as soon as TIM dies, IT also dies in its present formulation. Where are the "Reapers" controlling Shepard at that moment? And before someone answers "he's still dreaming", then why did the Catalyts bring him up the elevator, to ultimately give a dumb hint about the "destroy" possibility? This cannot be the "Shepard is resisting" proposition, since he never before set foot on this platform and doesn't even know if anything can be done against the Reapers at that moment. If the Catalyst had "Reaper interest above all", he could have simply let Shepard bleed to death, or dream without any clue, or dream of darkness instead of risking to wake him up, etc.Sisterofshane wrote...
The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).
If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate. All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!"). This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.
The problem with your argument is that it assumes that, within the "dream", that TIM is still actually real, and is performing real world actions. In IT, TIM appears as a metaphorical representation of the Reapers attempting to break Shepard's will (which is Represented by Anderson). Therefore, TIM shooting himself in the head is the failure of the Reaper attempt to break Shepard (by allowing him to Kill Anderson).
DJBare wrote...
I guess I knew when I started this thread it would become convoluted, you folk just cannot keep it simple can you.
Hears the general problem of your commet...It's iganoring everything in the lore.CavScout wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
CavScout wrote...
What does the ability of breaking out of indoctrination have to do with the point being argued? The claim, again, is that "total reaper control" can only mean indoctrination.Lookout1390 wrote...
CavScout wrote...
The claim was the Codex/Wiki proved that "full reaper control" means only indoctrination. It has yet to be shown to be correct. Asking a deflecting question doesn't add merit to ones claim.
You might as well explain, "I love lamp!" At least that would be humorous.
How many people have you met break indoctrination?
None
Because they are under control
Why would they need another form of control, when indoctrination works very efficiently?
What other forms of control have the Reapere exerted in the series?
Besides, I can think of three people who broke "indocrination" maybe more.
AGAIN I ask you, what is the dues ex machina that allows Reapers to control organics other than slow indoctrination, turning organics into husks, or making a species into a Reaper?
Anderson and Shep.
You boys on the IT side need to get on the same page on this one.dreman9999 wrote...
Dude, implatation is indoctrination as well. ME:retribution is all about this.CavScout wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
CavScout wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
UrgentArchengel wrote...
So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?
I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...
Are collectors considered "indocrinated"? Husks?
They're the remnants of an indoctrinated race (the protheans), mutated and cloned over 50,000 years as shock troops. You should know this if you played ME2. They have no will other than Harbinger's.
I don't consider them to be "indoctrinated", by the normal use of the term, either. I am asking others their perspective. Odd, you guys are automatically on the defensive if you feel threated by questions.
Sisterofshane wrote...
jules_vern18 wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
jules_vern18 wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
UrgentArchengel wrote...
So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?
I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...
We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly. Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.
Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses. Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.
Come on, guys...
The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).
If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate. All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!"). This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.
I see. And where exactly in the lore does it say that Indoctrination induces hallucinations?
Directly in the codex for Indoctrination
CavScout wrote...
KevShep wrote...
CavScout wrote...
So all the talk about all opinions being equally valid only applies to IT supporters and their opinions?KevShep wrote...
CavScout wrote...
I don't see any rationality in IT.
Where the H*** have you been? Your saying that there is no evidence of I.T.? here we go yet again,
No, but when you dont put ANY evidence into your oun reason why the game IS at face value then your opinion is means nothing!
LOL. Hypocrites.
Modifié par balance5050, 13 mai 2012 - 06:05 .
Anderson is not automatically killed in some dialogue choices (and paragon / renegade scores). But that still doesn't explain the 2nd part of my post : if indoctrination failed at that point, why did the Catalyst bring him over and offer him choices?Sisterofshane wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
Well, that's what Shepard has been doing with TIM all the way. TIM didn't wait until the end to try to convince Shepard, and Shepard was never "immune" to suggestions from TIM. He's still arguing in the end, and from what we saw happened to him, he's suffering enough to be a weak prey, but still he resists. That "full Reaper control" theme cannot be proved to show "indoctrination", at most it can show an "attempt", but as soon as TIM dies, IT also dies in its present formulation. Where are the "Reapers" controlling Shepard at that moment? And before someone answers "he's still dreaming", then why did the Catalyts bring him up the elevator, to ultimately give a dumb hint about the "destroy" possibility? This cannot be the "Shepard is resisting" proposition, since he never before set foot on this platform and doesn't even know if anything can be done against the Reapers at that moment. If the Catalyst had "Reaper interest above all", he could have simply let Shepard bleed to death, or dream without any clue, or dream of darkness instead of risking to wake him up, etc.Sisterofshane wrote...
The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).
If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate. All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!"). This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.
The problem with your argument is that it assumes that, within the "dream", that TIM is still actually real, and is performing real world actions. In IT, TIM appears as a metaphorical representation of the Reapers attempting to break Shepard's will (which is Represented by Anderson). Therefore, TIM shooting himself in the head is the failure of the Reaper attempt to break Shepard (by allowing him to Kill Anderson).
Sisterofshane wrote...
DJBare wrote...
I guess I knew when I started this thread it would become convoluted, you folk just cannot keep it simple can you.
LOL, no one here can agree that IT is the metaphorical analysis of the endings.
dreman9999 wrote...
Hears the general problem of your commet...It's iganoring everything in the lore.CavScout wrote...
Anderson and Shep.
Like I said for the hard of hearing this was not a thread for evidence of IT, this was to clear up some confusion that people had about what was real and not real, according to IT nothing after London is real, it's really that simple!CavScout wrote...
DJBare wrote...
My thanks to CavScout for keeping the thread afloat, much appreciated.
I have a question for others, this thread was never about the clues for IT, it's was about the fundamental of IT in that everything that happened after London was not real, so why are people discussing the citadel exploding?, according to the fundamental of IT these things never happened.
Yes, remember children, you can't use the game as evidence against IT, everyone is IT therefore can't be used against it!
Modifié par DJBare, 13 mai 2012 - 06:06 .
CavScout wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Hears the general problem of your commet...It's iganoring everything in the lore.CavScout wrote...
Anderson and Shep.
Are you claiming the scene didn't happen? I mean, you might as well argue that a Constitutional Amendment is Un-Constiutional....
CavScout wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
CavScout wrote...
What does the ability of breaking out of indoctrination have to do with the point being argued? The claim, again, is that "total reaper control" can only mean indoctrination.Lookout1390 wrote...
CavScout wrote...
The claim was the Codex/Wiki proved that "full reaper control" means only indoctrination. It has yet to be shown to be correct. Asking a deflecting question doesn't add merit to ones claim.
You might as well explain, "I love lamp!" At least that would be humorous.
How many people have you met break indoctrination?
None
Because they are under control
Why would they need another form of control, when indoctrination works very efficiently?
What other forms of control have the Reapere exerted in the series?
Besides, I can think of three people who broke "indocrination" maybe more.
AGAIN I ask you, what is the dues ex machina that allows Reapers to control organics other than slow indoctrination, turning organics into husks, or making a species into a Reaper?
Anderson and Shep.
Did you not read my post in the last page?jules_vern18 wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
jules_vern18 wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
jules_vern18 wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
UrgentArchengel wrote...
So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?
I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...
We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly. Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.
Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses. Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.
Come on, guys...
The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).
If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate. All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!"). This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.
I see. And where exactly in the lore does it say that Indoctrination induces hallucinations?
Directly in the codex for Indoctrination
Sorry, gonna have to get a link or a screencap, because I don't remember that at all.
Even if it were the case, I still don't believe that Bioware has just been sitting on it this whole time and has chosen not to release it despite the downpour of negative backlash. Even if your theory made sense thematically (it doesn't), it definitely doesn't make sense strategically on Bioware's part.
If IT were true, we would have heard about it by now.
That being said, I'd like to extend a single question to all the straw-graspers out there...if the EC comes out and presents the endings at face value without confirming IT, will you finally concede that it was just an elaborate coping mechanism for a poorly-written ending? Or will you insist that IT is still true and that Bioware will be confirming it with their next DLC? I'm honestly curious and have not been able to get an answer out of IT cultists anywhere I've asked.
tl;dr: If EC comes out and does not reveal IT to be true, what comes next?
dreman9999 wrote...
But every sign of indoctrination is in that scene. If a cigar is acigar...It still point to IT.jules_vern18 wrote...
balance5050 wrote...
jules_vern18 wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
CavScout wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
CavScout wrote...
Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.
Here.
To Quote the Specific Passage:
On Deciding the End of the Game said:
The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still
much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various
ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for
Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'
In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end
of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man,
originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the
writers would have more time to finesse the ending.
And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).
Reaper Control = Indoctrination.
Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.
I can't take you seriously when you can't be intellectually honest and admit that the phrase is an obvious synonym.
He has a valid point. You have decided that "reaper control" means "indoctrination" when we have seen other means of reaper control throughout the series (collectors, TIM forcing you to shoot Anderson).
If the devs meant Indoctrination, they would have said Indoctrination.
And now, a brief definition of indoctrination:
Noun1.indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
Now tell me...is indoctrination a synonym for control?
So you're saying that they were playing with the idea of Shepard becoming a husk?
"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk
I'm saying that they might have been looking to have a reaper do to Shepard in-game what TIM does to him in the TIM/Shep/Anderson dialogue sequence.
IE it was just an idea they were going with and decided against it during the course of development. It means nothing.
That's right everyone...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But until you can accept that, I would suggest an underrated Jim Carrey movie called "the Number 23." Might hit close to home for some of you
No, I'm claiming that the scene prove Shepard is in the process of indoctrination....CavScout wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Hears the general problem of your commet...It's iganoring everything in the lore.CavScout wrote...
Anderson and Shep.
Are you claiming the scene didn't happen? I mean, you might as well argue that a Constitutional Amendment is Un-Constiutional....
Modifié par dreman9999, 13 mai 2012 - 06:11 .
DJBare wrote...
Like I said for the hard of hearing this was not a thread for evidence of IT, this was to clear up some confusion that people had about what was real and not real, according to IT nothing after London is real it's really that simple!CavScout wrote...
DJBare wrote...
My thanks to CavScout for keeping the thread afloat, much appreciated.
I have a question for others, this thread was never about the clues for IT, it's was about the fundamental of IT in that everything that happened after London was not real, so why are people discussing the citadel exploding?, according to the fundamental of IT these things never happened.
Yes, remember children, you can't use the game as evidence against IT, everyone is IT therefore can't be used against it!
Modifié par balance5050, 13 mai 2012 - 06:08 .
I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?jules_vern18 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
But every sign of indoctrination is in that scene. If a cigar is acigar...It still point to IT.jules_vern18 wrote...
balance5050 wrote...
jules_vern18 wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
CavScout wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
CavScout wrote...
Please show us where the term indoctrinated is used. The image has been posted many times. If it is there, please post it.
Here.
To Quote the Specific Passage:
On Deciding the End of the Game said:
The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still
much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various
ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for
Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'
In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end
of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man,
originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the
writers would have more time to finesse the ending.
And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).
Reaper Control = Indoctrination.
Indoctrination is not used in that passage. Why can't you acknowledge that simple fact. And you expect us to take the rest of IT seriously when facts can't be agreed on.
I can't take you seriously when you can't be intellectually honest and admit that the phrase is an obvious synonym.
He has a valid point. You have decided that "reaper control" means "indoctrination" when we have seen other means of reaper control throughout the series (collectors, TIM forcing you to shoot Anderson).
If the devs meant Indoctrination, they would have said Indoctrination.
And now, a brief definition of indoctrination:
Noun1.indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
Now tell me...is indoctrination a synonym for control?
So you're saying that they were playing with the idea of Shepard becoming a husk?
"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk
I'm saying that they might have been looking to have a reaper do to Shepard in-game what TIM does to him in the TIM/Shep/Anderson dialogue sequence.
IE it was just an idea they were going with and decided against it during the course of development. It means nothing.
That's right everyone...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But until you can accept that, I would suggest an underrated Jim Carrey movie called "the Number 23." Might hit close to home for some of you
"If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"
That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard. Perfect.
Modifié par dreman9999, 13 mai 2012 - 06:09 .
You seem to be confused. I am calling him a hypocrite because ITers claim that all "un-disproved" opinions are equal. What the hell does that vid have to do with that?balance5050 wrote...
CavScout wrote...
LOL. Hypocrites.
I just don't get how you can say that, You give nothing and we have a 90 minute, point-by-point anlaysis. He's saying you put forth NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH. You stand around with your eyes closed regurgitating the same NOTHINGNESS, every last one of your post isn't in the least bit constructive to any evolution in the debate, you refuse to even step into anyone else's shoes or admit the tinyest obvious detail even if it remotely supports I.T.. Debates are one by seeing both sides of the situation and considering ALL possibilities.
I understand if you are going to ignore this or hand wave it away with some irrelevant term that you learned only days ago FROM US, but seriously you're coming off as someone who is full of hate and just wants to prove something to us because something happened to you.... or something.
But seriously, you're just oozing with preteenage angst.
He is. That's all there is to it! But obviously, this answer doesn't fit IT, so it must be wrong.dreman9999 wrote...
I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?
Modifié par Iconoclaste, 13 mai 2012 - 06:11 .
jules_vern18 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
But every sign of indoctrination is in that scene. If a cigar is acigar...It still point to IT.
"If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"
That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard. Perfect.
Modifié par balance5050, 13 mai 2012 - 06:11 .
The one where he is under full control.... I don't believe it to be Indocrination.balance5050 wrote...
CavScout wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Hears the general problem of your commet...It's iganoring everything in the lore.CavScout wrote...
Anderson and Shep.
Are you claiming the scene didn't happen? I mean, you might as well argue that a Constitutional Amendment is Un-Constiutional....
What scene? Where shepard was being indoctrinated? Towards the end right?
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