Hears the general problem of your commet...It's iganoring everything in the lore.
Are you claiming the scene didn't happen? I mean, you might as well argue that a Constitutional Amendment is Un-Constiutional....
What scene? Where shepard was being indoctrinated? Towards the end right?
The one where he is under full control.... I don't believe it to be Indocrination.
Uhm, that scene was dropped remember?
The one in the game wasn't.
Sigh... so you're saying the scene where Shepard falls under full reaper control IS in the game?
Read that to yourself and make sure you understand my question and what you said.
He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.
TIM is under the control of the reapers.......And TIM control Shepard...... What does that mean?
If you are talking about the literal interpretation of the ending in which they both lose control, you have to remember that the Reapers do not have control over them, TIM does.
The only instance of the game in which the Reapers take control of an individual's movements through another individual is with the Collector General and the Collecters, and it was done through the use of Reaper Implants. In fact, the only time we ever see the Reapers controlling the direct movements of an individual are with the use of Implants (Saren is the only other example I can think of).
As far as I know from a literal interpretation of the game, neither Shepard nor Anderson are implanted with Reaper Tech, which makes this theory moot.
I don't believe TIM has out advanced the Reapers.
However, that is the only logical conclusion if we have ruled out the (what I will call) traditional Indoctrination and/or direct Reaper implantation of both Shepard and Anderson.
He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.
Ok ok, but what aspect of the reapers was he studying? I forgot silly me.
I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?
He is. That's all there is to it! But obviously, this answer doesn't fit IT, so it must be wrong.
How does it not fit IT? If IT is true and Shepard is being controled with indoctrintation...It fits nicely. So.... tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?
Read the thread!
It did....The topic support this. If it's a dream, it's really a reaper doing all this.
If... but that makes no sense. Then it must be true : TIM has gained the ability to control people all by himself. Simple, no?
And in that scene the reaper control TIM...So.......
classic, using out of context staements, you don't understand that by that he means indoctrination is reaper control.
IT's description of TIM confrontation refers to assets seen often in game when Shepard is close to death (and he is!), when biotics are used, etc. Nothing points to "Reapers" controlling Shepard more than "TIM" could be.
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.
This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.
TIM can't use Biotics.
"Biotics of other species are individuals who were exposed to dust-form element zero ("eezo") in utero and subsequently developed eezo nodules throughout their bodies. These nodules can generate mass effect fields when energized by electrical impulses from the nervous system.Eezo exposure is by no means guaranteed to result in biotic ability. On the contrary, most fetuses that are exposed are not affected at all. Others will develop brain tumors or other horrific physical complications. In humans, only about one in ten eezo-exposed infants will develop biotic talents strong and stable enough to merit training, and these abilities are not always permanent. In extremely rare cases, humans who were exposed in utero but did not manifest biotic talents as children can develop them during young adulthood through additional exposure."Biotics need to be exposed to eezo in the womb and even then it's not guarunteed. To assume that he is is a farther reach in logic then... a lot of things.
This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.
So...He's using biotics.....
TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.
As to why you are given the magic elevator ride, it's simple. The Reapers still need time - either to indoctrinate you or to kill you. If they gave up after the hallucination of TIM failed, wouldn't you just wake up in the London rubble right there, and be capable of continuing your task unhindered? It would be much better (simpler) to keep your number one enemy under your "illusion".
The Reapers will destroy the Crucible if Shepartd hesitates too long to make a choice upstairs, so there is no logic to wake Shepard up "still in a dream" to "gain more time", since they already have all the time they want to destroy the Crucible while Shep is unconscious.
jules_vern18 wrote..."If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"
That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard. Perfect.
I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?
Why does it have to be explained? It simply is.
Remember CavScout - if it can't be explained within the context of the game, it must be IT.
There are no such things as plot-holes, writer oversights, need-to-know, deus ex machina, etc. Anything that doesn't make sense is only further proof of IT's infallability...which is why this ending is doubly annoying.
So apparently Full Reaper Control does not equal Indoctrination. That's just plain silly. How else do Reapers assume direct control?[/quote]
I guess the Devil was "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of those Collectors and was calling himself Harbinger. Silly me, thinking the Reapers could do that...
[/quote]
We know from the lore that indoctrination takes a long time and does not occur instantly. Harbringer is able to take control of individual collectors immediately.
Moreover, the collectors were made specifically for the reapers' uses. Otherwise Harbringer would have just "assumed direct control" over you and each of your squadmates until you all just killed each other off.
Come on, guys...
[/quote]
The implementation of Reaper Tech is what made the "total control" of the Collectors and Saren possible (and I would argue, is the Reason why the Reapers are capable of controlling TIM in the end - his indoctrination did not occur when he first encountered the Reaper Artifact on Shanxi, but rather when he chose to implant himself with Reaper Tech).
If we are arguing this from the IT point of view, the entire ending is Shepard resisting the attempt to indoctrinate. All the Reapers need is for him to make the conscious (or subconscious) decision to allow the Reapers into his mind. (I like here that one of TIM's lines is "I need you to believe!"). This does not mean that the Reapers are now capable of controlling Shepards' body, but he/she will now no longer be able to resist the suggestions that they make.
[/quote]
I see. And where exactly in the lore does it say that Indoctrination induces hallucinations?
[/quote]
Directly in the codex for Indoctrination
[/quote]
Sorry, gonna have to get a link or a screencap, because I don't remember that at all.
Even if it were the case, I still don't believe that Bioware has just been sitting on it this whole time and has chosen not to release it despite the downpour of negative backlash. Even if your theory made sense thematically (it doesn't), it definitely doesn't make sense strategically on Bioware's part.
If IT were true, we would have heard about it by now.
That being said, I'd like to extend a single question to all the straw-graspers out there...if the EC comes out and presents the endings at face value without confirming IT, will you finally concede that it was just an elaborate coping mechanism for a poorly-written ending? Or will you insist that IT is still true and that Bioware will be confirming it with their next DLC? I'm honestly curious and have not been able to get an answer out of IT cultists anywhere I've asked.
tl;dr: If EC comes out and does not reveal IT to be true, what comes next?
[/quote]Did you not read my post in the last page? I'll post it agein... http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
[/quote]
Ok, good - let's break this down.
1. They complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. When has Shepard ever complained about either of these symptoms?
2. Has Shepard ever expressed to anyone - in the entire trilogy - that he feels like he's being watched?
3. Hallucinations of "ghostly presences" == hallucinations of intricate, highly-detailed conversations, followed by intricate set-pieces, space battles, the normandy crashing on an unknown planet, and a galaxy-wide event.
[/quote] 1.
2.This is a last stage sign. 3. The kid in the fall of earth.
[/quote]
Nice try.
1. Why is Shepard only experiencing these early stage symptoms now? Lore has established that indoctrination is a long process, yet Shepard does not display any of these symptoms until the very end (and still not buzzing in the ears).
2. That's great. We still see no signs - early or late - that Shepard feels like he's being watched.
3. The kid in the fall of earth was not a hallucination. He was a plot device used to illustrate to the player (and again through dream sequences) Shepard's attachment to earth and the toll that war is taking on him.
[/quote]1. Because he is near the end of the indoctrination progress....Indoctrination is slow and subtle. 2.The dreams. 3.Who else interacts with him? Is there proof that he is real?
jules_vern18 wrote..."If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"
That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard. Perfect.
I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?
Why does it have to be explained? It simply is.
This, I think, is the crux of the problem.
I will repeat the offer that nobody has yet taken up of a cash bet of some kind, to be decided based on story progression from this point.
Out of curiosity, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but have you ever read any classic books that require a little reading-into to pick up on the meaning? One such book which I was a fan of is "Brave New World", and I know that I mention it a fair bit on these forums, but when Mac Walters was writing the ending of ME3, he used it for inspiration (along with "The end of the first Matrix", I'll let you work that one out...) so I think it's worth a note. It's available free online these days and out of copyright, so I strongly recommend that you go take a look. Even if not for ME3, it's a fascinating look into a dystopian "future" (I put this in quotes as the book is rather dated now and despite being set in the future the technology is somewhat behind...) in which people are lead through subconscious suggestion to be perfectly willing servants of their politcal masters. It's actually quite interesting as it parallels a lot of what we see in mainland China these days.
jules_vern18 wrote...
CavScout wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
jules_vern18 wrote..."If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"
That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard. Perfect.
I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?
Why does it have to be explained? It simply is.
Remember CavScout - if it can't be explained within the context of the game, it must be IT.
There are no such things as plot-holes, writer oversights, need-to-know, deus ex machina, etc. Anything that doesn't make sense is only further proof of IT's infallability...which is why this ending is doubly annoying.
Not so, there is a lot that people have suggested lately that doesn't fit at all well. When I have time I'll collate together a thread's worth of stuff that is actually valuable info
This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.
TIM can't use Biotics.
"Biotics of other species are individuals who were exposed to dust-form element zero ("eezo") in utero and subsequently developed eezo nodules throughout their bodies. These nodules can generate mass effect fields when energized by electrical impulses from the nervous system.Eezo exposure is by no means guaranteed to result in biotic ability. On the contrary, most fetuses that are exposed are not affected at all. Others will develop brain tumors or other horrific physical complications. In humans, only about one in ten eezo-exposed infants will develop biotic talents strong and stable enough to merit training, and these abilities are not always permanent. In extremely rare cases, humans who were exposed in utero but did not manifest biotic talents as children can develop them during young adulthood through additional exposure."Biotics need to be exposed to eezo in the womb and even then it's not guarunteed. To assume that he is is a farther reach in logic then... a lot of things.
All this shows is that TIM likely wasn't born with Biotics... with all the impants and Reaper tech, it is foolish to think something out of the norm is not possible.
Not saying TIM is Biotic, but he does show a Biotic like effect in that scene.
jules_vern18 wrote..."If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"
That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard. Perfect.
I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?
Why does it have to be explained? It simply is.
Remember CavScout - if it can't be explained within the context of the game, it must be IT.
There are no such things as plot-holes, writer oversights, need-to-know, deus ex machina, etc. Anything that doesn't make sense is only further proof of IT's infallability...which is why this ending is doubly annoying.
This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.
So...He's using biotics.....
TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.
1. Why is Shepard only experiencing these early stage symptoms now? Lore has established that indoctrination is a long process, yet Shepard does not display any of these symptoms until the very end (and still not buzzing in the ears).
2. That's great. We still see no signs - early or late - that Shepard feels like he's being watched.
3. The kid in the fall of earth was not a hallucination. He was a plot device used to illustrate to the player (and again through dream sequences) Shepard's attachment to earth and the toll that war is taking on him.
[/quote]
I don't know about you, but I sure a hell wouldn't want that buzzing coming through my PC speakers, that would be rather annoying. All 8 of them.
balance5050 wrote... Sigh... so you're saying the scene where Shepard falls under full reaper control IS in the game?
Read that to yourself and make sure you understand my question and what you said.
He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.
TIM is under the control of the reapers.......And TIM control Shepard...... What does that mean?
You boys and you goal post moving....
I don't think it is Indocrination and I believe it is TIM who is doing it.
As to why you are given the magic elevator ride, it's simple. The Reapers still need time - either to indoctrinate you or to kill you. If they gave up after the hallucination of TIM failed, wouldn't you just wake up in the London rubble right there, and be capable of continuing your task unhindered? It would be much better (simpler) to keep your number one enemy under your "illusion".
The Reapers will destroy the Crucible if Shepartd hesitates too long to make a choice upstairs, so there is no logic to wake Shepard up "still in a dream" to "gain more time", since they already have all the time they want to destroy the Crucible while Shep is unconscious.
Again, you are assuming that what happens while in the "dream citadel" has bearing on the real world (which according to IT is Shepard laying semi-unconscious in the rubble of London).
If you read my second paragraph, then you would understand my point of view (which splits from IT). They already failed at their attempt to Indoctrinate Shepard - and Shepards mind refuses to give up (hence why it is shown Shep is struggling to get to the panel, I take this to be metaphorical for Shepard trying to wake himself up to finish the mission and defeat the Reapers.) Picking an option given by the Catalyst doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making Shepard finally believe that the fight is over, and that he can just let go.
He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.
Ok ok, but what aspect of the reapers was he studying? I forgot silly me.
This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.
So...He's using biotics.....
TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.
Why did you cutout the pic of the game calling it indoctrination....
1. Why is Shepard only experiencing these early stage symptoms now? Lore has established that indoctrination is a long process, yet Shepard does not display any of these symptoms until the very end (and still not buzzing in the ears).
2. That's great. We still see no signs - early or late - that Shepard feels like he's being watched.
3. The kid in the fall of earth was not a hallucination. He was a plot device used to illustrate to the player (and again through dream sequences) Shepard's attachment to earth and the toll that war is taking on him.
[/quote]
I don't know about you, but I sure a hell wouldn't want that buzzing coming through my PC speakers, that would be rather annoying. All 8 of them.
As for your other ramblings, try try again K?
[/quote]
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what a lost argument looks like. <3
As to why you are given the magic elevator ride, it's simple. The Reapers still need time - either to indoctrinate you or to kill you. If they gave up after the hallucination of TIM failed, wouldn't you just wake up in the London rubble right there, and be capable of continuing your task unhindered? It would be much better (simpler) to keep your number one enemy under your "illusion".
The Reapers will destroy the Crucible if Shepartd hesitates too long to make a choice upstairs, so there is no logic to wake Shepard up "still in a dream" to "gain more time", since they already have all the time they want to destroy the Crucible while Shep is unconscious.
jules_vern18 wrote..."If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"
That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard. Perfect.
I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM is controling SHEPARD?
Why does it have to be explained? It simply is.
Remember CavScout - if it can't be explained within the context of the game, it must be IT.
There are no such things as plot-holes, writer oversights, need-to-know, deus ex machina, etc. Anything that doesn't make sense is only further proof of IT's infallability...which is why this ending is doubly annoying.
CavScout wrote... I don't believe TIM has out advanced the Reapers.
However, that is the only logical conclusion if we have ruled out the (what I will call) traditional Indoctrination and/or direct Reaper implantation of both Shepard and Anderson.
Only if you presume first that Reapers only do Indocrination.....
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