739 réponses à ce sujet

[Sisterofshane]

jules_vern18 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote..."If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"

That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard.  Perfect.

I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM  is controling SHEPARD?

Why does it have to be explained? It simply is.

Remember CavScout - if it can't be explained within the context of the game, it must be IT.

There are no such things as plot-holes, writer oversights, need-to-know, deus ex machina, etc.  Anything that doesn't make sense is only further proof of IT's infallability...which is why this ending is doubly annoying.

It can't be disproved by applying literal interpretations to it.  If one has accepted IT, they have already decided that everything that has been presented is meant to symbolize something else.

Just as IT theorists can't disprove and literal interpretation of the endings.

Both versions are vaild until Bioware flat out refutes one or the other.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.

Ok ok, but what aspect of the reapers was he studying? I forgot silly me.

Argument By Pigheadedness

By that argument it says that I refuse to accept something that everyone else approves.

But thats wrong because I believe that he was studying indoctrination, which is what everyone else believes. So with the information you've given me, you agree.

TIM was studying indoctrination.

[dreman9999]

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
Sigh... so you're saying the scene where Shepard falls under full reaper control IS in the game?

Read that to yourself and make sure you understand my question and what you said.

He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.

TIM is under the control of the reapers.......And TIM control Shepard...... What does that mean?

You boys and you goal post moving....

I don't think it is Indocrination and I believe it is TIM who is doing it.

It's not goal post moving. It's something that happens in the plot. So I'm sapposed to focus on one plot point and ignore the nextplot point dreactly ealatedto it?

[CavScout]

TSA_383 wrote...
This, I think, is the crux of the problem.

I will repeat the offer that nobody has yet taken up of a cash bet of some kind, to be decided based on story progression from this point.

Out of curiosity, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but have you ever read any classic books that require a little reading-into to pick up on the meaning? One such book which I was a fan of is "Brave New World", and I know that I mention it a fair bit on these forums, but when Mac Walters was writing the ending of ME3, he used it for inspiration (along with "The end of the first Matrix", I'll let you work that one out...) so I think it's worth a note. It's available free online these days and out of copyright, so I strongly recommend that you go take a look. Even if not for ME3, it's a fascinating look into a dystopian "future" (I put this in quotes as the book is rather dated now and despite being set in the future the technology is somewhat behind...) in which people are lead through subconscious suggestion to be perfectly willing servants of their politcal masters. It's actually quite interesting as it parallels a lot of what we see in mainland China these days.

Appeal To Complexity

[CavScout]

dreman9999 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote..."If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"

That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard.  Perfect.

I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM  is controling SHEPARD?

Why does it have to be explained? It simply is.

Remember CavScout - if it can't be explained within the context of the game, it must be IT.

There are no such things as plot-holes, writer oversights, need-to-know, deus ex machina, etc.  Anything that doesn't make sense is only further proof of IT's infallability...which is why this ending is doubly annoying.

Indoctriantion is the context of the game.

Indoctrination is in the game. Indoctrination of Shep as demanded by IT is not.

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.

This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.

So...He's using biotics.....

TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.

It's called reaper power

http://3.bp.blogspot...s1600/indoc.png 

read the red part and refute it with logic please.

What is there to refute? You post an image and claim it means something... you do that a lot.

[dreman9999]

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote..."If a cigar is just a cigar...it still points to IT"

That quote is the single most defining statement about IT and IT fanatics that I have ever heard.  Perfect.

I been asking this alot . Please tell me how TIM  is controling SHEPARD?

Why does it have to be explained? It simply is.

Remember CavScout - if it can't be explained within the context of the game, it must be IT.

There are no such things as plot-holes, writer oversights, need-to-know, deus ex machina, etc.  Anything that doesn't make sense is only further proof of IT's infallability...which is why this ending is doubly annoying.

Indoctriantion is the context of the game.

Indoctrination is in the game. Indoctrination of Shep as demanded by IT is not.

IT is indoctrination.

[jules_vern18]

dreman9999 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

I asked this before and it got brushed off once again (funny how that always happens in IT threads):

What happens if the EC is released and does not validate IT? What if the endings are simply extended and delivered to be taken at face value?

I'm really curious where IT goes from there. Will you still insist that Bioware had IT planned all along?

I have yet to get an answer from the Cult of Indoctrination Theory on this one. Anybody?

Is this question relivent?  This has nothing that proves or did prove IT. It just a last hit attempt.

But that's what you guys say no matter where I ask it.  It seems like you're afraid to answer it or something.

And yes, it's relevant, because the answer may or may not be indicative of whether or not IT is actually disprovable.

In order for a hypothesis to be valid, there have to be conditions under which it can be disproved.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
This, I think, is the crux of the problem.

I will repeat the offer that nobody has yet taken up of a cash bet of some kind, to be decided based on story progression from this point.

Out of curiosity, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but have you ever read any classic books that require a little reading-into to pick up on the meaning? One such book which I was a fan of is "Brave New World", and I know that I mention it a fair bit on these forums, but when Mac Walters was writing the ending of ME3, he used it for inspiration (along with "The end of the first Matrix", I'll let you work that one out...) so I think it's worth a note. It's available free online these days and out of copyright, so I strongly recommend that you go take a look. Even if not for ME3, it's a fascinating look into a dystopian "future" (I put this in quotes as the book is rather dated now and despite being set in the future the technology is somewhat behind...) in which people are lead through subconscious suggestion to be perfectly willing servants of their politcal masters. It's actually quite interesting as it parallels a lot of what we see in mainland China these days.

Appeal To Complexity

You realize that you're not actually debating right? You're not even entertaining the idea of being engaged in discussion?

Modifié par balance5050, 13 mai 2012 - 06:37 .

[dreman9999]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.

This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.

So...He's using biotics.....

TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.

It's called reaper power

http://3.bp.blogspot...s1600/indoc.png 

read the red part and refute it with logic please.

What is there to refute? You post an image and claim it means something... you do that a lot.

It's game code for the scene with TIM and a code "reaper power " is highlighted.

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 mai 2012 - 06:38 .

[CavScout]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
As to why you are given the magic elevator ride, it's simple.  The Reapers still need time - either to indoctrinate you or to kill you. If they gave up after the hallucination of TIM failed, wouldn't you just wake up in the London rubble right there, and be capable of continuing your task unhindered?  It would be much better (simpler) to keep your number one enemy under your "illusion".

The Reapers will destroy the Crucible if Shepartd hesitates too long to make a choice upstairs, so there is no logic to wake Shepard up "still in a dream" to "gain more time", since they already have all the time they want to destroy the Crucible while Shep is unconscious.

Again, you are assuming that what happens while in the "dream citadel" has bearing on the real world (which according to IT is Shepard laying semi-unconscious in the rubble of London).

If you read my second paragraph, then you would understand my point of view (which splits from IT).  They already failed at their attempt to Indoctrinate Shepard - and Shepards mind refuses to give up (hence why it is shown Shep is struggling to get to the panel, I take this to be metaphorical for Shepard trying to wake himself up to finish the mission and defeat the Reapers.)  Picking an option given by the Catalyst doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making Shepard finally believe that the fight is over, and that he can just let go.

Iconoclaste this is why it is nearly pointless to debate an Indoctrination Theory Evangelical. They will claim anything from the game used against Indoctrination Theory is simply an artifact if Indoctrination Theory.

A proves B.
B proves A.

It's great logic....

Modifié par CavScout, 13 mai 2012 - 06:40 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Argument By Pigheadedness

POT MEET KETTLE LOL

[Sisterofshane]

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

CavScout wrote...
I don't believe TIM has out advanced the Reapers.

However, that is the only logical conclusion if we have ruled out the (what I will call) traditional Indoctrination and/or direct Reaper implantation of both Shepard and Anderson.

Only if you presume first that Reapers only do Indocrination.....

No, we can apply everything we have seen the Reapers do to the endings and still reach the same conclusion.

Are they turning Shep?Anderson into husks? No.

Are they genetically modifying them into organic constructs (such as the keepers)? No.

Are they killing them?  No.

Are they processing/harvesting them? No.

We've already ruled out that it is not "traditional" indoctrination (off on a tangent here, I find it odd that you do not dispute my use of the the term "traditional" here), and that they are not implanted with Reaper Tech.

So how exactly is TIM in control of the two of them through any means of his own?  And, if this method is known to him and he is indoctrinated (and he is if we are taking the ending at face value), then why are the Reapers not capitalizing on the fact that they can instananeously control individuals movements with TIM's discovery?

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.

This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.

So...He's using biotics.....

TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.

It's called reaper power

http://3.bp.blogspot...s1600/indoc.png 

read the red part and refute it with logic please.

What is there to refute? You post an image and claim it means something... you do that a lot.

Hundreds of posts by you, and so little is said. You're becoming my favorite....

[dreman9999]

jules_vern18 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

I asked this before and it got brushed off once again (funny how that always happens in IT threads):

What happens if the EC is released and does not validate IT? What if the endings are simply extended and delivered to be taken at face value?

I'm really curious where IT goes from there. Will you still insist that Bioware had IT planned all along?

I have yet to get an answer from the Cult of Indoctrination Theory on this one. Anybody?

Is this question relivent?  This has nothing that proves or did prove IT. It just a last hit attempt.

But that's what you guys say no matter where I ask it.  It seems like you're afraid to answer it or something.

And yes, it's relevant, because the answer may or may not be indicative of whether or not IT is actually disprovable.

In order for a hypothesis to be valid, there have to be conditions under which it can be disproved.

But it is not relivent. What is awnsering this question even going to prove?

[Iconoclaste]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

As to why you are given the magic elevator ride, it's simple.  The Reapers still need time - either to indoctrinate you or to kill you. If they gave up after the hallucination of TIM failed, wouldn't you just wake up in the London rubble right there, and be capable of continuing your task unhindered?  It would be much better (simpler) to keep your number one enemy under your "illusion".

The Reapers will destroy the Crucible if Shepartd hesitates too long to make a choice upstairs, so there is no logic to wake Shepard up "still in a dream" to "gain more time", since they already have all the time they want to destroy the Crucible while Shep is unconscious.

Again, you are assuming that what happens while in the "dream citadel" has bearing on the real world (which according to IT is Shepard laying semi-unconscious in the rubble of London).

If you read my second paragraph, then you would understand my point of view (which splits from IT).  They already failed at their attempt to Indoctrinate Shepard - and Shepards mind refuses to give up (hence why it is shown Shep is struggling to get to the panel, I take this to be metaphorical for Shepard trying to wake himself up to finish the mission and defeat the Reapers.)  Picking an option given by the Catalyst doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making Shepard finally believe that the fight is over, and that he can just let go.

If Shepard would believe everything is over after making a choice, then why would he only wake up in the "destroy" ending? If you answer "Because that symbolizes his victory over indoc", then again : why did the Reapers suggest the possibility of a "destroy" solution, if they can even provoke hallucinations? Why this discrepancy between their immense power to "indoctrinate", and their lack of control over what they can show their victims? Why are they able to suggest sophisticated things like "the kid in the vent", or TIM's confrontation, but even after all this time trying (and succeeding to a point) to melt Shepard's mind, they still fail to the point of showing him the exit (destroy)?

[jules_vern18]

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.

This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.

So...He's using biotics.....

TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.

It's called reaper power

http://3.bp.blogspot...s1600/indoc.png 

read the red part and refute it with logic please.

What is there to refute? You post an image and claim it means something... you do that a lot.

It's game code for the scene with TIM and a code "reaper power " is highlighted.

You mean the "reaper power" he has gained from experimenting with Reaper Tech that has allowed him to take control of Shepard and Anderson?

My interpretation is just as valid as yours.

Difference is, I don't try and shove mine down everybody else's throats.

[CavScout]

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.

This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.

So...He's using biotics.....

TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.

Why did you cutout the pic of the game calling it indoctrination....

What the point of repeating images?

Plus, it doesn't prove anything. You're appealing to authority here. You don't know what it means, you only know what someone told you it means.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
As to why you are given the magic elevator ride, it's simple.  The Reapers still need time - either to indoctrinate you or to kill you. If they gave up after the hallucination of TIM failed, wouldn't you just wake up in the London rubble right there, and be capable of continuing your task unhindered?  It would be much better (simpler) to keep your number one enemy under your "illusion".

The Reapers will destroy the Crucible if Shepartd hesitates too long to make a choice upstairs, so there is no logic to wake Shepard up "still in a dream" to "gain more time", since they already have all the time they want to destroy the Crucible while Shep is unconscious.

Again, you are assuming that what happens while in the "dream citadel" has bearing on the real world (which according to IT is Shepard laying semi-unconscious in the rubble of London).

If you read my second paragraph, then you would understand my point of view (which splits from IT).  They already failed at their attempt to Indoctrinate Shepard - and Shepards mind refuses to give up (hence why it is shown Shep is struggling to get to the panel, I take this to be metaphorical for Shepard trying to wake himself up to finish the mission and defeat the Reapers.)  Picking an option given by the Catalyst doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making Shepard finally believe that the fight is over, and that he can just let go.

Iconoclaste this is why it is nearly pointless to debate an Indoctrination Theory Evangelical. They will claim anything from the game used against Indoctrination Theory is simply an artifact if Indoctrination Theory.

A proves B.
B proves A.

It's great logic....

So you're saying you love the idea of I.T.? How it's an extremly refreshing, fourth wall breaking, metaphysical experince that bleedes out into the real world in an extremly surprising ways?

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.

Ok ok, but what aspect of the reapers was he studying? I forgot silly me.

Argument By Pigheadedness

By that argument it says that I refuse to accept something that everyone else approves.

But thats wrong because I believe that he was studying indoctrination, which is what everyone else believes. So with the information you've given me, you agree.

TIM was studying indoctrination.

You never won in 6th grade debate, did you?

[dreman9999]

jules_vern18 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.

This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.

So...He's using biotics.....

TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.

It's called reaper power

http://3.bp.blogspot...s1600/indoc.png 

read the red part and refute it with logic please.

What is there to refute? You post an image and claim it means something... you do that a lot.

It's game code for the scene with TIM and a code "reaper power " is highlighted.

You mean the "reaper power" he has gained from experimenting with Reaper Tech that has allowed him to take control of Shepard and Anderson?

My interpretation is just as valid as yours.

Difference is, I don't try and shove mine down everybody else's throats.

Repaer power is indoctriantion.That is their main power.Whatyou said is exactly indoctrination.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.

This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.

So...He's using biotics.....

TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.

Why did you cutout the pic of the game calling it indoctrination....

What the point of repeating images?

Plus, it doesn't prove anything. You're appealing to authority here. You don't know what it means, you only know what someone told you it means.

NO! These are files YOU CAN SEE TOO IF YOU USE UMODEL ON THE PC.

[CavScout]

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
Sigh... so you're saying the scene where Shepard falls under full reaper control IS in the game?

Read that to yourself and make sure you understand my question and what you said.

He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.

TIM is under the control of the reapers.......And TIM control Shepard...... What does that mean?

You boys and you goal post moving....

I don't think it is Indocrination and I believe it is TIM who is doing it.

It's not goal post moving. It's something that happens in the plot. So I'm sapposed to focus on one plot point and ignore the nextplot point dreactly ealatedto it?

You don't even believe it to be a real scene. There is literally no point in debating the meaning of the scene if one party thinks it actually happened and the other wants to believe it was all a "dream".

[dreman9999]

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Nope. TIM isn't a biotic.

This has been discussed yesterday on another thread, and you got your explanation. We are shown in game, very clearly, that TIM as a "biotic-like" glow around his fist, and that he makes Shepard move against his will.

So...He's using biotics.....

TIM does display a Biotic like effect over his arm/fist when talking to Shep.

Why did you cutout the pic of the game calling it indoctrination....

What the point of repeating images?

Plus, it doesn't prove anything. You're appealing to authority here. You don't know what it means, you only know what someone told you it means.

It proves that indoctrination is used in the last scene of the game being that indoctriantion is the reapers main power.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

He is under TIMs full control. I've clearly stated I don't think it is indocrination. It, IMO, is something TIM learned from the study of reapers. Keep trying the silly 6th grade debate team tactics if you must.

Ok ok, but what aspect of the reapers was he studying? I forgot silly me.

Argument By Pigheadedness

By that argument it says that I refuse to accept something that everyone else approves.

But thats wrong because I believe that he was studying indoctrination, which is what everyone else believes. So with the information you've given me, you agree.

TIM was studying indoctrination.

You never won in 6th grade debate, did you?

I studied psychology, but I work in internet advertising. Point is I graduated college.