284 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

By "adult game" and "artistic decision," we mean that we made the game as it is for reasons you may or may not ever know or agree with. Just because we can include full nudity and explicit sex into a game does not mean we will, or that we should.



People on both sides of the argument should keep this in mind. We are in no way obligated to include such things in the game, or to have the same amount of nudity and/or sex and/or coarse language in every game we make. Including such things as explicit nudity or sex means, for one, navigating each region's laws regarding the depiction of such things in media: whether they violate obscenity laws, where such products can be sold, how such products can be advertised, labeling laws, etc. Including such things also automatically marginalizes the game as an "adults only" product, which many people equate to pornography, a very negative connotation which makes the game more difficult to market to our audiences.



I'd like to thank all those who have made "suggestions" for how BioWare or EA could potentially avoid or work around potential problems with including objectionable material in our games, but unfortunately, unless you've got some credentials and some hard numbers on the effect of sex/nudity in games in various regions, your suggestions remain anecdotal and, therefore, not of very much use to the decision makers. It's all well and good to say we "could" do this or that, but we've already chosen to go a certain route. It is up to you to prove that going a different route would be better, easier, and/or more profitable.

[MerinTB]

Fade. To. Black.

Works for pretty much everyone. Won't get anyone upset (well, maybe people who don't even want sex HINTED at, but what can you do?)

Maybe I'm carrying over too much from previous threads on this topic, but much of the complaints was about SHOWING sex scenes (already showing it) but with the characters wearing underware.  The silliness of that.  And most people would be happier with a "Meet you in the tent..." fade to black.

Country's laws on sex or no solved.

Modifié par MerinTB, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:54 .

[JanHenDAO]

Adults rule the world, it's that simple.

[Killian Kalthorne]

The way I see it, and many may disagree with me, is just make the game and story as it would naturally progress and the the ESRB worry about the ratings. Nudity for the sake of nudity is just as bad as censorship in my opinion. If it makes sense for the characters to get naked and have sex in the context of the story then so be it. If not, oh well, not that big of a deal. Now I do think that the love scenes in Dragon Age were subpar compared to Mass Effect and I do hope for improvement in future Dragon Age products.



I just want natural game and story flow and for it to make sense. The sex scenes in Dragon AGe with the underwear on didn't make sense to me. I don't know many people who have sex in their underwear. Beyond that minor quibble I don't see the big deal of it.

[Curlain]

I didn't mind the sex scenes, though they did look odd with the underwear on (ME did manage it better in this regard), but on the whole I was fine with them. But I was quite happy with how it worked in BG2 romances, at certain points you would sleep/make love with said romantic interest, in which they essetially invited/asked you to bed and it initated a normal resting sequence. It was essentially a fade to black situation, and work fine (your imgination could fill in the blanks if you wanted it it). That the ME both worked well, that said, I didn't really mind this to much (and certain mods can make it seem less jarring in any casse), so not really much of an issue

[Adria Teksuni]

[quote]Ibian wrote...
So, if you had a 15 year old, you would have no problems with them playing DA:O?[/quote]
I wouldnt. Look mom, its like this: You can try to protect your kids, and they will be weak when they grow up. Or you can hand them enough rope to hang themselves, they will learn from this, and they will become strong and intelligent.

This assumes they have a strong character and are reasonably intelligent, of course (this is mostly your responsibility, too). If they dont, protect away.[/quote]

*sigh*  Am simply backing away slowly and making no sudden movements.  Can't even continue reading what was an interesting discussion for those having an intelligent debate on the actual OP, which was pretty much about "What else in this game makes it eligible for a Mature/Adultish rating if there's no nudity in it."
Look son, it's like this, part of my job is to try and protect my kids.  It's something of a requirement.  Be sure to post your thesis on how letting your kid be fostered by pimps and drug cartels works out for you.

[StrangeCat Productions]

Stanley Woo wrote...

By "adult game" and "artistic decision," we mean that we made the game as it is for reasons you may or may not ever know or agree with. Just because we can include full nudity and explicit sex into a game does not mean we will, or that we should.

People on both sides of the argument should keep this in mind. We are in no way obligated to include such things in the game, or to have the same amount of nudity and/or sex and/or coarse language in every game we make. Including such things as explicit nudity or sex means, for one, navigating each region's laws regarding the depiction of such things in media: whether they violate obscenity laws, where such products can be sold, how such products can be advertised, labeling laws, etc. Including such things also automatically marginalizes the game as an "adults only" product, which many people equate to pornography, a very negative connotation which makes the game more difficult to market to our audiences.

I'd like to thank all those who have made "suggestions" for how BioWare or EA could potentially avoid or work around potential problems with including objectionable material in our games, but unfortunately, unless you've got some credentials and some hard numbers on the effect of sex/nudity in games in various regions, your suggestions remain anecdotal and, therefore, not of very much use to the decision makers. It's all well and good to say we "could" do this or that, but we've already chosen to go a certain route. It is up to you to prove that going a different route would be better, easier, and/or more profitable.

and it's so difficult for you to create an adult patch that only adults could download and add to the game?
The Witcher Directors Cut was just that.  It was great!  It just added another level of realism to the game.
Something to think about for the future^_- 
Of course Mods could do that as well. 

Obviously if you went a different route you would get an AO rating the politics of the gaming world would kick in the AO rating would tarnish your companies reputation, magazines web site would have a field day...no you guys no what your doing.

[Hamsterminator]

I get the impression from reading the responses, that the general "average" response to this issue is basically, nudity would be ace, but the lack of it isn't exactly a problem.

Putting my opinions in context, I think this game is possibly one of if not the best games I have played in terms of immersion, storyline, acting etc. So if a nipple were shown in a "sex" scene I really wouldnt have been surprised, nor offended. But a lack of said nipplage doesn't spoil the game for me. It's kind of like being given an amazing cake. If said cake comes with a cherry on top, that's great, but at the end of the day, it really don't change the taste of the cake.



I may now go have a look for the mods people have mentioned here to see if the cherry makes the cake better though

[Kensh88]

Somehow, I think I'd rather risk the probability ("off-chance") of a 15 year old son spending his days j**king off in his room to polygon boobs, than daydreaming about shooting classmates or slinging drugs. Then again; I'm one of the said Norwegians, so I don't really expect this to be shared by the majority.
However, seeing as european countries clearly have a more liberal view on these things, I wonder how many years it will take before the tables turn somewhere and games with nipples only classify as M (or what you'd call 17+?), whereas the slighest hint of mutilation makes it AO...
(If Germany hasn't already done that. In which case; yay for them)
Anyhow, it will certainly call for much rejoicing.

On an end note;
Let me get something right; there is a seperation between what 17 year olds and 18 year olds are allowed to play in the US? I figured the 17+ thing was probably just a method of separating the "grown up" games from the pr0nz, but I find it probable that if a "man" at 18 has witnessed a pair of boobs, he's probably already witnessed them at 17 too. Putting the "pornographic"-barrier at 16 (which I believe is universally the most common age of consent?) would be, if not entirely moral, at least be a more realistic limit to uphold.

And then we wouldn't be having this problem, even with the game as it is. Game developers are in their full rights to NOT include nudity if they don't want to, but they wouldn't be crucified for doing it either.

[Dex1701]

Here's why:





/thread

[ModForFun]

Stanley Woo wrote...

By "adult game" and "artistic decision," we mean that we made the game as it is for reasons you may or may not ever know or agree with. Just because we can include full nudity and explicit sex into a game does not mean we will, or that we should.

People on both sides of the argument should keep this in mind. We are in no way obligated to include such things in the game, or to have the same amount of nudity and/or sex and/or coarse language in every game we make. Including such things as explicit nudity or sex means, for one, navigating each region's laws regarding the depiction of such things in media: whether they violate obscenity laws, where such products can be sold, how such products can be advertised, labeling laws, etc. Including such things also automatically marginalizes the game as an "adults only" product, which many people equate to pornography, a very negative connotation which makes the game more difficult to market to our audiences.

I'd like to thank all those who have made "suggestions" for how BioWare or EA could potentially avoid or work around potential problems with including objectionable material in our games, but unfortunately, unless you've got some credentials and some hard numbers on the effect of sex/nudity in games in various regions, your suggestions remain anecdotal and, therefore, not of very much use to the decision makers. It's all well and good to say we "could" do this or that, but we've already chosen to go a certain route. It is up to you to prove that going a different route would be better, easier, and/or more profitable.

Fair enough, there will allways be critics on every side that find a reason to dissagree, in the case of Dragonage a good number of those critics are bashing you guys for having sex scenes in the game period while just as many it seems are bashing you for not showing nudity in whats deemed as an adult game regardless of it being M.

I think BMX XXX would be an example of the numbers your looking for, the game sold extremely well, it went gold in a relatively short period of time but at the cost of leaving acclaim to defend itself against the lawsuits that fallowed. In todays market the firestorm from the media would make for some pretty damned good advertising but that would banking on DA selling well to turn a profit after the lawsuits have been settled. That is something that would certainly be in the high risk category.

So I really dont blame Bioware at all for the descisions made, I believe that many ways DA still pushes the envelope.

[II Relics II]

There is a mod being worked on this, if you must have nudity in the game then wait for it (the mod) to be finished.



Problem solved.

[Kensh88]

II Relics II wrote...

There is a mod being worked on this, if you must have nudity in the game then wait for it (the mod) to be finished.

Problem solved.

But honestly, there are always several rants for moar bewbage going around in games that include "adult" themes" but don't really depict much.
Especially in our day and age where it seems like the majority of games strive for visual perfection, often at great costs to other gameplay factors. 

Reading through this thread, however, this doesn't seem to be the case (most of the time).
It's all about the principle, and those certain points of the game where it would have been natural to have more skin than there is now. Especially the werewolves in clothes part.
It just doesn't make sense.
And even if it's no big deal, everyone will at that point be aware of the fact that video games still have a long way to go to catch up with the other major media, censorship-wise. I just don't like the knowledge of being so obviously underrestimated in such a manner. And all the modding in the world won't fix this. BW can't really fix it either.
The frustration only gets directed at them, because change needs to start somewhere, and we'd all love for game devs to constantly flip the big bird to the "censoral institutions" (if there is such a word). 
It's unrealistic, but it's what these threads are all about.
I never thought I'd catch myself saying this, but boobs are irrelevant.

So in short; I don't think nudity would change much for me in this game, so I'll give it a pass.
But I'd certainly love to see BW giving Fox something new to whine about more often!

[Shadow_Viper]

If you don't like it, create a nudity mod. Simple as that.

IFSW.

[Dex1701]

Kensh88 wrote...

II Relics II wrote...

There is a mod being worked on this, if you must have nudity in the game then wait for it (the mod) to be finished.

Problem solved.

But honestly, there are always several rants for moar bewbage going around in games that include "adult" themes" but don't really depict much.
Especially in our day and age where it seems like the majority of games strive for visual perfection, often at great costs to other gameplay factors. 

Reading through this thread, however, this doesn't seem to be the case (most of the time).
It's all about the principle, and those certain points of the game where it would have been natural to have more skin than there is now. Especially the werewolves in clothes part.
It just doesn't make sense.
And even if it's no big deal, everyone will at that point be aware of the fact that video games still have a long way to go to catch up with the other major media, censorship-wise. I just don't like the knowledge of being so obviously underrestimated in such a manner. And all the modding in the world won't fix this. BW can't really fix it either.
The frustration only gets directed at them, because change needs to start somewhere, and we'd all love for game devs to constantly flip the big bird to the "censoral institutions" (if there is such a word). 
It's unrealistic, but it's what these threads are all about.
I never thought I'd catch myself saying this, but boobs are irrelevant.

So in short; I don't think nudity would change much for me in this game, so I'll give it a pass.
But I'd certainly love to see BW giving Fox something new to whine about more often!

There is a stigma, though, among many people that haven't played/don't play/aren't often exposed to video games that video games are for children.  No amount of rated-M'ing games is going to make them realize that some games were designed for older players, because to them games are toys for kids.  To these people the idea of a video game with adult themes is like having characters on a Nickelodeon show engaging in sexual intercourse.  I hate to post this again, but look what happened with Mass Effect:

[xka]

DM Veil wrote...

I want to know why there's all this complaining because an adult game doesn't have nudity. I didn't realize it was a necessity for games these days.

There is no need of violence to make a game
There is no need to make reference to violations, slaughters, torture, beasts eating humans, bloody fights...or monsters mutates that were humans and now they only exits fot giving birth of more monsters...

For example..Mario Bross.

But when you want to do a heroic, fantastic,  history for adults (at least in spain, i repeat DAO is for 18+ years), you need to use adult histories: sacrifice, blood, realistic histories. You could also evade "bad" side of life, i mean, force always to choose "nice" options, but..this,  would be acceptable in a serious RPG?.

And let's return to sex. Sex is part of human being, one of the more important things, nature drives us to sex. Its the motor of many histories in real life, its cause of tragic histories, of passion. How can anyone evade sex when trying to do a heroic and adult history?...its unnatural to avoid it.

And its ridiculous than in a adult history, breast is not acceptable, but seeing all things i have post some lines above it is. Im a father, my little girl cant play videogames yet, but i never let her playing to DAO until she has 18 years (at least 16 years). Why?..because there was some breast?..my goodness!!, when we goes to a beach you can see all breast you want. We cant  be so ridiculous. I woudnt let her play DAO because its an adult history, because its has violence, reference to adult concepts.

I have 39 yeasrs old, and like me, are  A LOT of gamers, "borned" with pacman, space invaders, but now we are adults, and want adult histories. Its no cuestion of  "if you want sex or breast go to porn site"...no, thats no question, question is that for many os us, and adult history must have sex (not necesary porn), without fear of showing a  breast for example, or a ****, or what developer would have in mind.

Its hilarious to be so much trouble for asking some breast or sex (inaceptable!!), but for example no problem when our heroic history has references of massacres, canibalism, rape, assessination, gore, torture, etc...really hilarious.<_<

[xka]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

If you don't like it, create a nudity mod. Simple as that.

IFSW.

Well fine, but we are only speaking about this development decision, because someone of us think that should be inside the game, not later in a mod..

Dex1701 wrote...
There is a stigma, though, among many people
that haven't played/don't play/aren't often exposed to video games that
video games are for children.  No amount of rated-M'ing games is going
to make them realize that some games were designed for older players,
because to them games are toys for kids.  ....

Totally agree. Games, like anime, like any movie, like theatre.. can be for kids... OR NOT!. But in mind of lot of people, games means toy for kids, and this is a fatal error. I have seeing a mother buying to kid of 12-13 years old, a GTA game , and im sure she dind't knew but was buying.

[xka]

Stanley Woo wrote...

By "adult game" and "artistic decision," we mean that we made the game as it is for reasons you may or may not ever know or agree with. Just because we can include full nudity and explicit sex into a game does not mean we will, or that we should.

People on both sides of the argument should keep this in mind. We are in no way obligated to include such things in the game, or to have the same amount of nudity and/or sex and/or coarse language in every game we make. Including such things as explicit nudity or sex means, for one, navigating each region's laws regarding the depiction of such things in media: whether they violate obscenity laws, where such products can be sold, how such products can be advertised, labeling laws, etc. Including such things also automatically marginalizes the game as an "adults only" product, which many people equate to pornography, a very negative connotation which makes the game more difficult to market to our audiences.

I'd like to thank all those who have made "suggestions" for how BioWare or EA could potentially avoid or work around potential problems with including objectionable material in our games, but unfortunately, unless you've got some credentials and some hard numbers on the effect of sex/nudity in games in various regions, your suggestions remain anecdotal and, therefore, not of very much use to the decision makers. It's all well and good to say we "could" do this or that, but we've already chosen to go a certain route. It is up to you to prove that going a different route would be better, easier, and/or more profitable.

Of course, i think anyone knows that developer team have the last word in these questions. We know that every country has their own  laws and you work to have  a profitable bussiness, but i think this type of disscussion is important, because gamers are demanding more adult games.

I have to reference again to all these players like me, "borned" with pacman, with space invaders, we have grown with the videogame's world. Curiosly, we are a generation with money (not a lot, but well, we have some money ), but we are rarely listened.

Perhaps would be an error in economic terms, i dont know. I can only speak about but i'd like in a game, ..not in any game, in an adult game.

[hangmans tree]

I wonder if any developer in the near future will make a game as they want it with an attitude - rate it as you want/is acceptable in your country. Its and adult and complete material, no shortcuts because of laws of the market/parents-media histeria (which is funny as this is an ADULT GAME) that the themes will/may cause.

In the field of RPG I can only see couple of milestones after DAO, its Mass Effect 2 and The Witcher 2...any others?

We shall see how many % of adult will there be in the adult material

[Bryy_Miller]

Ibian wrote...

 Conflict strengthens us. This has been my experience for my entire nearly 30 year life, as well as the experience of my father and grandfather who risked his life to save strangers during the war. They would not be the people they are, and i would not, if they had been meek and unthinking people.

There are so many things wrong with comparing raising a child to fighting in a war that it's not even worth getting into. 

StrangeCat Productions wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

By "adult game" and "artistic decision," we mean that we made the game as it is for reasons you may or may not ever know or agree with. Just because we can include full nudity and explicit sex into a game does not mean we will, or that we should.

People on both sides of the argument should keep this in mind. We are in no way obligated to include such things in the game, or to have the same amount of nudity and/or sex and/or coarse language in every game we make. Including such things as explicit nudity or sex means, for one, navigating each region's laws regarding the depiction of such things in media: whether they violate obscenity laws, where such products can be sold, how such products can be advertised, labeling laws, etc. Including such things also automatically marginalizes the game as an "adults only" product, which many people equate to pornography, a very negative connotation which makes the game more difficult to market to our audiences.

I'd like to thank all those who have made "suggestions" for how BioWare or EA could potentially avoid or work around potential problems with including objectionable material in our games, but unfortunately, unless you've got some credentials and some hard numbers on the effect of sex/nudity in games in various regions, your suggestions remain anecdotal and, therefore, not of very much use to the decision makers. It's all well and good to say we "could" do this or that, but we've already chosen to go a certain route. It is up to you to prove that going a different route would be better, easier, and/or more profitable.

and it's so difficult for you to create an adult patch that only adults could download and add to the game?
The Witcher Directors Cut was just that.  It was great!  It just added another level of realism to the game.
Something to think about for the future^_- 
Of course Mods could do that as well. 

Obviously if you went a different route you would get an AO rating the politics of the gaming world would kick in the AO rating would tarnish your companies reputation, magazines web site would have a field day...no you guys no what your doing.

I love how the moment we get an official response, someone feels the need to get snarky with BioWare as if to look cool. Real mature.

[Dieover]

fro7k wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

So wait...you are complaining about no nudity??? Is that really a big problem in the game...truthfully....?

It's part of the package.  I would have liked to see female nudity, but that's not the point.  It's not being deprived of nudity that bothers me, but the lameness of attempting to cover up nudity that was there and the judgement it implies.

Its call Nude Mod and that's our "other option" so those doesn't like support nudity in their countries around the world have that as a default.

/thread

Modifié par Dieover, 10 décembre 2009 - 09:33 .

[Seraphael]

Dahelia wrote...

fro7k wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

So wait...you are complaining about no nudity??? Is that really a big problem in the game...truthfully....?

It's part of the package.  I would have liked to see female nudity, but that's not the point.  It's not being deprived of nudity that bothers me, but the lameness of attempting to cover up nudity that was there and the judgement it implies.

So murdering children, blood, gore, lust, etc...is not adult enough for you? You actually have to see the ****** and everything else too? Just so you know, you don't jump into bed nude to sleep with your partner, think of what you are seeing as the foreplay before the sex. If you need to see the nudeness download the mods they have out for it.

The point is, in the hypocritical american neo-puritanist world we live in, the prospect of a little bit of naked skin is what sets the conservative zealots off. Extreme levels of violence is merely a footnote for these people and the people too indoctrinated in their way of thinking to see the self-evident truth. Clearly the world (esp. the world created by religious fanatics of all faiths) is out of balance on this issue.

Bioware shown conformity here no doubt.

Hamsterminator wrote...

I get the impression from reading
the responses, that the general "average" response to this issue is
basically, nudity would be ace, but the lack of it isn't exactly a
problem.

It's certainly not a problem on a personal level, on a larger cultural scale it clearly is though. By shying away from these topics, we further enforce the hypocricy that affects our societies.

Modifié par Seraphael, 10 décembre 2009 - 10:59 .

[Seraphael]

Ethan009 wrote...

FADE TO BLACK is King. Nothing is really better. Better than underwear sex anyways >_>

Riiiiight. Let's really go low-tech to please the medieval mind-set of some intolerant people. <_<

Personally I think the artists of Mass Effect did a lot better work in this regard, creative editing made the love scene tasteful and artistic (though obviously there's no pleasing fox news zealots).