89 réponses à ce sujet

[KaeserZen]

My main gripe with elitists is that most of people who allegedly claim they are elite are far from being skillful players : and I'm not talking about "the right builds", as I see here, I talk about them letting their guard down because they are using some "right build" with a decent loadout they saw on the boards and feel they are being carried by the stats.

I remember a PUG on G-Glacier-Random, where I was playing a level 12 Drell Adept. Two of the guys wanted to kick me because I was underleveled and I wasn't carrying the Carnifex/Pally (Hurricane instead). They were very vocal, until they realised the third guy would not kick me. We went to play, and that silent third guy and I actually carried a couple games until wave 8, before the other guys lack of skill became too much of a burden.

Bottom line, most of the "elitist" I met are far from being "elite" players, and could use better judgment, tactics, and analysis, and I get annoyed by their behavior, when they'd rather shut up and suck it up. I have no gripe with elite players kicking whoever they want for whatever reason, because they probably made the right call for both the team and the kicked guy.

[Major Durza]

KiraTsukasa wrote...

Malkeor wrote...

KiraTsukasa wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

KiraTsukasa wrote...
Blah blah blah.

I see that KiraTsukasa is gunning for the title of "most constructive poster on BSN" yet again.

And yet, it's still more constructive than what the thread is about.

^100% pickles 

^200% cucumbers.

^100% Vinegar.
Cut you in half, and doubled him.
Victory.

Either way.
"blah blah blah" is simply childish, not amusing.  This was actually halfway decent before you started demanding attention in the fashion of a petulant child.

[KiraTsukasa]

Major Durza wrote...

KiraTsukasa wrote...

Malkeor wrote...

KiraTsukasa wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

KiraTsukasa wrote...
Blah blah blah.

I see that KiraTsukasa is gunning for the title of "most constructive poster on BSN" yet again.

And yet, it's still more constructive than what the thread is about.

^100% pickles 

^200% cucumbers.

^100% Vinegar.
Cut you in half, and doubled him.
Victory.

Either way.
"blah blah blah" is simply childish, not amusing.  This was actually halfway decent before you started demanding attention in the fashion of a petulant child.

"Blah blah blah" is just as productive as your "discussion" was. People will act the way they do no matter how much you discuss it or tell them they are wrong.

Quite frankly, I did find it to be amusing. If your head is too far up your butt to smile once in awhile, well, I'm sorry for your loss.

Modifié par KiraTsukasa, 13 mai 2012 - 08:17 .

[OniGanon]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ShadowRanger88 wrote...

First I'd like to begin by saying that a godless paladin would lose all their powers effectively becoming a normal warrior.

  No, you're thinking of a Paladin who breaks their code.  Since at least as far back as 3rd edition D&D a Paladin can follow a philosophy rather than a deity.  As such, I get to be an atheist and still Smite Evil like a boss.

O.o But... upon death, atheists in D&D have their souls chained to a wall where they writhe in torment for an indeterminately long time as they are slowly consumed by and become part of the wall itself...

[Shepard Wins]

Ah, don't tell me I have to update the compendium again...

Modifié par Shepard Wins, 13 mai 2012 - 08:24 .

[KiraTsukasa]

OniGanon wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ShadowRanger88 wrote...

First I'd like to begin by saying that a godless paladin would lose all their powers effectively becoming a normal warrior.

  No, you're thinking of a Paladin who breaks their code.  Since at least as far back as 3rd edition D&D a Paladin can follow a philosophy rather than a deity.  As such, I get to be an atheist and still Smite Evil like a boss.

O.o But... upon death, atheists in D&D have their souls chained to a wall where they writhe in torment for an indeterminately long time as they are slowly consumed by and become part of the wall itself...

Do they then become a Wall Shadow and await summoning by a pair of annoyingly rhyming twins? And then get to kill a Beaver Warrior thus leading to jokes about Yugi having a beaver?

[GodlessPaladin]

OniGanon wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ShadowRanger88 wrote...

First I'd like to begin by saying that a godless paladin would lose all their powers effectively becoming a normal warrior.

  No, you're thinking of a Paladin who breaks their code.  Since at least as far back as 3rd edition D&D a Paladin can follow a philosophy rather than a deity.  As such, I get to be an atheist and still Smite Evil like a boss.

O.o But... upon death, atheists in D&D have their souls chained to a wall where they writhe in torment for an indeterminately long time as they are slowly consumed by and become part of the wall itself...

You mean in Forgotten Realms (yuck), not in D&D in general.  And that's because Ao is a complete ass.

Incidentally, even in a setting where extraplanar jerkasses with superpowers wander around in plain sight, not recognizing any legitimate "god" worthy of dogmatic worship is completely justified and rational.  There's no reason to treat the guys calling themselves "Gods" as any different than, say, a great wyrm dragon.  They're just another kind of powerful individual with no more divine right than a historical pharaoh, for the exact same reasons that it was a bull**** argument for ancient monarchs.  It's just another bully who demands your favor by threat of horrific punishment... just a stronger one.  *Shrug*

I mean, high level wizards can make planes too.  Doesn't mean that people should worship them dogmatically.

But we're getting off topic.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 13 mai 2012 - 08:53 .

[Trippid]

Quite a few posts have worded my thoughts better than I could hope to at this hour and the discussion has been stimulating to follow, but I'll toss my two cents in with the hope it's somewhat coherent. 

In my own personal experience I've found that gold is not quite as difficult as it is made out to be, in terms of class combinations. I had the luxury of initially experiencing multiplayer with friends, so I managed to learn and vastly improve my skill in a nice comfort zone. None of us were excellent players, but we never had trouble with silver. When we migrated to gold, I think we were shocked by how much we had overestimated the difficulty jump. Certainly you're much quicker to die if you're exposed even briefly, but adjusting to the changes just requires a few matches if you're eager. It's to the point now where I would be willing to play most classes (baring logical/strategic importance; vanguards, krogan, etc.) without fitness and do absolutely fine in a gold public match. But in terms of having a strong combination of biotic or tech users in a public match - sure you could kill things faster - but is it a necessity? Not by a long shot.

My point being, I would never see the logic in kicking someone playing an obscure or unsynchronized class.

In terms of gauging the ability of someone I'm in a public lobby with, first and foremost I check for equipment. While it's not necessary to succeed, if someone is using it, it generally means they care enough to want the match to go as smoothly as possible. You could be a sniping vanguard, but if you're using equipment, in my mind that suggests you know what you're getting yourself into. 
Secondly - and mostly due to threads bringing it up - I'll check your weapon levels. I'm not one to assume skill based on what weapon you're making use of, but if it's a higher rank, it tells me you've been through enough matches to (presumably) know your stuff.
N7 rank however has never held weight with me unless you are under 120 and your current character is not level 20. I have friends with N7 ratings in the thousands and vice versa; it's never been a testament to their skill; I've stuck with a cool 300 and it's served me well. If your selected class is max level, I'll have little issue, but a lack of equipment will bother me at that point. 

Now.. to the actual match. Do I mind carrying people? Yes and no. I have off nights. My skill level fluctuates, and most times even on a character I'm ace at, I still second guess myself when queuing up for a public gold match. Someone did a very accurate post of the different types of gold/silver players earlier, and I'd say I fall into Gold 2. In a public gold match would I feel safe playing a drell vanguard or human adept? Not so much. My general rule of thumb for which character I'll play a public gold match is do I think I can solo wave 8 or 9 on this character? Granted, I've never had to, but is it a character I feel confident enough in to play as, given the idea that my teammates might stuggle?I don't mind helping new players, not at all. As it's been said, new players aren't the problem, it's the dumb ones. That, I take issue with. 

Earlier tonight I was playing with a Batarian soldier. He was doing quite poorly, but that didn't bother me so much as the fact he'd run across the map, away from us all in order to snag a choke point for himself. When he died, he'd wait for a revive; if no one came he'd bleed out, even on waves 8-10.
That is unacceptable. 
You don't join a gold lobby, bring your team down and skimp out. If you're going to be unskilled, fine. But if you're going to ignore the missiles you're so conveniently hoarding, the medi-gel you could have saved yourself with - even just to buy the rest of us time as a distraction - then you don't deserve to be in the match.

I don't use a headset consistently for a slew of reasons, but if someone is expecting everything from us and doing nothing in return, I will use that annoying piece of tech to get a message across. They deserve to be called out on it. On my better days I'll be mellow enough to offer advice/suggestions, but if someone is in gold, they should have a grasp of what teamwork is.
Silver is fantastic practice. Use it to test out new characters/builds, gold is not the place for that if you're not confident. And please, for the love of Gavorn, realize situational awareness is your best friend.  


I would, however like to point out that I've done public silver matches with people vastly superior to many of those I've encountered in public golds. There is no harm in trying. Had I not had friends with me, I'd probably still be doing silver today, so I had the luxury of encouragement. If you're doing great in silver, give gold a shot. If it's too rough, learn from your mistakes/read the forums/make some new friends and try again. 

Also:

maxtofunator wrote...
you don't know how friends work very well, I always put a red x next to a friends name, always

Quoted for serious truth.

Edited for spacing. Holy wall of text, batman.

Modifié par Trippid, 13 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[Soggy-Snake-]

KaeserZen wrote...

My main gripe with elitists is that most of people who allegedly claim they are elite are far from being skillful players : and I'm not talking about "the right builds", as I see here, I talk about them letting their guard down because they are using some "right build" with a decent loadout they saw on the boards and feel they are being carried by the stats.

I remember a PUG on G-Glacier-Random, where I was playing a level 12 Drell Adept. Two of the guys wanted to kick me because I was underleveled and I wasn't carrying the Carnifex/Pally (Hurricane instead). They were very vocal, until they realised the third guy would not kick me. We went to play, and that silent third guy and I actually carried a couple games until wave 8, before the other guys lack of skill became too much of a burden.

Bottom line, most of the "elitist" I met are far from being "elite" players, and could use better judgment, tactics, and analysis, and I get annoyed by their behavior, when they'd rather shut up and suck it up. I have no gripe with elite players kicking whoever they want for whatever reason, because they probably made the right call for both the team and the kicked guy.

You ran into a bunch of [Gold 3] players (see my post for details). Those are the ones you want to avoid and the the ones who think they are elite. The term 'elite' should really only be used for Gold soloers, not just Gold regulars. There's a difference in my opinion.

[Terraflare]

http://social.biowar.../index/11767582

I wrote this post the last time a wave of "elitism" accusations flew out (coincidentally, around the last operation?) Some people enjoyed it, some people TL;DRed it but i shall post this here in case anyone cares to read it.

[Stardusk]

Soggy-Snake- wrote...

KaeserZen wrote...

My main gripe with elitists is that most of people who allegedly claim they are elite are far from being skillful players : and I'm not talking about "the right builds", as I see here, I talk about them letting their guard down because they are using some "right build" with a decent loadout they saw on the boards and feel they are being carried by the stats.

I remember a PUG on G-Glacier-Random, where I was playing a level 12 Drell Adept. Two of the guys wanted to kick me because I was underleveled and I wasn't carrying the Carnifex/Pally (Hurricane instead). They were very vocal, until they realised the third guy would not kick me. We went to play, and that silent third guy and I actually carried a couple games until wave 8, before the other guys lack of skill became too much of a burden.

Bottom line, most of the "elitist" I met are far from being "elite" players, and could use better judgment, tactics, and analysis, and I get annoyed by their behavior, when they'd rather shut up and suck it up. I have no gripe with elite players kicking whoever they want for whatever reason, because they probably made the right call for both the team and the kicked guy.

You ran into a bunch of [Gold 3] players (see my post for details). Those are the ones you want to avoid and the the ones who think they are elite. The term 'elite' should really only be used for Gold soloers, not just Gold regulars. There's a difference in my opinion.

I think there should be other categories. You have only elite and regular but I would put myself inbetween it all.

[Morgax_Warrior]

I guess one day is not enough for elitism and phoenix theorys.
"I should go."

[haruki61]

trayno wrote...

First and foremost, dare I say I'm puzzled? 
Utterly and totally puzzled.
Well,
it begins simply with the fact that (bear with me, I only ever tried
Bronze) whenever I joined a Lobby noone ever talked. Granted Bronze is
kindergarden, but I still have never heard anyone talk or ever talked to
someone.

Yup! I just wanted to ask about this too.
I played like hundreds of games, silver mostly and most of the time everybody had a mic (except me) and i can't remember that more than a few times someone used it. Even if, for example, someone was the last standing and someone was coming from behind, even then there was only silence. So what's the fu..ing point. All i am saying is that you can hear someone with mic if you don't have one so it's utterly stupid to kick someone out for not having mic (considering the fact that the idiots with mics doesn't use them anyway).

Cheers !!!

[Jade Elf]

Soggy-Snake- wrote...

Top level Silver players - these people have played a lot of Bronze and Silver and are experienced enough to start playing Gold. Have characters between lvl15-20 and a few rare weapons. Know how to work as a team, use missiles and not die. However they run into [Gold 3] players first and therefore suffer the kicking/abuse that comes from low tier Gold players. Often they do not persist with Gold and never meet the [Gold 2] players who are willing to play with them. Responsible for the complaints regarding weekend events on Gold.

Heh, yeah that's me.


Semi-related anecdote: For this weekend's challenge I thought I'd host a public FBWGG match just for the heck of it. Got a team of GI, SE, GE (me) and Turian (I honestly can't remember if he was a Soldier or Sentinel). The GI had an odd loadout - Falcon VII or something -, but for the most part I didn't really pay attention to builds or loadouts. No one had mics or at least didn't use them(!), but the match went well redgardless. Everyone pulled their weight, we made full extraction without issue. And the nice thing was, there was absolutely no discussion or arguing regarding builds, levels or loadouts at all, before or after...

I think I'll stick to Silver (and the occasional Bronze) though

[joker_jack]

And people on this forum wonder why we can't have nice things.

[Crypticqa]

Modifié par Crypticqa, 13 mai 2012 - 10:37 .

[Merchant2006]

Ba-da-baah baah baaa. I'm lovin it.

Modifié par Merchant2006, 13 mai 2012 - 10:41 .

[Star fury]

If I'm in a good mood or waiting my friends, I carry newbies. If not, they'll be instakicked.

[-Sxx-]

I can see this community going down the route of Exteel's. Most elitist gaming community I've ever been in, and the damn game was free!

Modifié par Dest1ny, 13 mai 2012 - 11:08 .

[Nocturnalfox]

Duranndal wrote...

If you are a relatively skilled player:
#1. Don't be insulting/elitist.  It just makes the community worse, and you have helped noone, including yourself.
#2. Play with friends.  (protip: you are less likely to kick them)  If you have no friends, make some.  If you can't make any friends, delete Mass Effect 3 and your BSN account. 
#3. You are not required to carry less skilled players, but consider doing so every now and then to help them get better.  You might gain a friend who could very quickly become a pro player.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIAnKiGdvgQS56ahMFzSmTUoGRg1G-6nuxTAIsKuqVpywwSVi8

You have my answer:P

[HairyCallahan]

Duranndal wrote...

You know the drill.  Players throwing insults at "Elitists" for being jerks or for kicking.  "Elitists" angry that less skilled players are wasting their time by joining Gold matches.

This is basically the same age old debate that has been going on for thousands of years and is still going strong in politics today.  Its actually pretty interesting to see this phenomenon in the forum - especially when people don't realize what they're essentially arguing about;

Should those more skilled/fortunate be required/forced to be charitable?  Or should it be that person's prerogative?

I (as well as many of those on my friends list) do plenty of Gold matches where 1 or 2 people score no more than a few thousand points throughout the entire successful match.  Its more than obvious they are not ready for gold.  I don't have any particularly big problem with this.  But people have to realize that it can be considered very rude to show up and not carry their own weight.  On the flipside,  it can be considered to be very rude to kick someone without explanation, or be insulting of someone because of their skill level.

So whats the takeaway from this?

If you are less skilled, or are perceived as being less skilled, or are being consistently kicked:
#1. Stop being so offended and for godssake stop complaining on the forums.  Realize that other people's time is precious to them.  They are not obligated to carry you, or take a chance on your build/weapon combo that they are unfamiliar with.
#2. Play with friends.  (protip: they are less likely to kick you).  If you have no friends, make some.  If you can't make any friends, delete Mass Effect 3 and your BSN account.
#3. Practice, get better, get help - but not at the unwilling expense of others.

If you are a relatively skilled player:
#1. Don't be insulting/elitist.  It just makes the community worse, and you have helped noone, including yourself.
#2. Play with friends.  (protip: you are less likely to kick them)  If you have no friends, make some.  If you can't make any friends, delete Mass Effect 3 and your BSN account. 
#3. You are not required to carry less skilled players, but consider doing so every now and then to help them get better.  You might gain a friend who could very quickly become a pro player.

Yeah, it's a neverending discussion. I think you give the correct argument when you see people's time is precious. I refuse to play who have a 90% Fail chance. When and N7 45 with a level 5 Krogan Vanguard joins, I insta-kick him. Why does he bother playing gold? He doesn't add to the team, so why does he feel the need of playing gold at all. I would feel bad if I was a medioker player with medioker guns, trying to get carried trough a gold match. I would rather be a useful player on silver, than an absolute noob on gold. Not so skilled players must understand there is nothing more frustrating than failing to beat Wave 10 after using up all your missiles and med gels, while tha nooby guy with 7000 points just refuses to shoot a missile, while HE is the reason we are having trouble beating the wave in the first place. Since a few weeks, I just kick everyone I feel is trying to leech Gold games. That includes 200N7 with fresh promoted characters.

[joker_jack]

Dest1ny wrote...

I can see this community going down the route of Exteel's. Most elitist gaming community I've ever been in, and the damn game was free!

And that game got canned.

[PraetorianVIII]

You cant really determine how good a player is until you play with them.

Might be easy to kick that N7 69 guy with level 20 GI and Widow I but he might have ended up being a better player with a better grasp of playing Gold than the N7 457 guy who replaced him in the lobby and who gets downed half a billion times.

I've played with lower level players who do better than some high level guy with an X rare weapon in the same game.

The problem with this whole "elitist" thing is that people are putting too much face value into N7 rank and weapons. Sure that level 4 HE guy with an N7 of 24 and Avenger II is clearly in the wrong place and should be playing Bronze. But that doesn't mean that everyone of an N7 lower than 150 sucks at the game and "shud stick 2 silver". Some people only play one or two characters per class and don't promote.

[dream3873]

They really need a new rank systems that takes into account how many times you have successfully extracted on gold,siver and bronze by enemy type.

Modifié par dream3873, 13 mai 2012 - 12:02 .

[PraetorianVIII]

dream3873 wrote...

They really need a new rank systems that takes into account how many times you have successfully extracted on gold,siver and bronze by enemy type.

Kind of like Halo 3's in-game player profiles.  It used to tell you how many times you'd played Social (unranked) and Ranked.  A guy with more ranked games would have a higher rank and therefore be better at the game than the guy with more Social matches.

Should have something similar in ME3.