901 réponses à ce sujet

[GroverA125]

If they understand how I'm feeling, and act accordingly, then it's no less a person than you are. Synthetic life is as the name suggests, life, regardless of the fact that there is metal instead of skin. In all technicality, they function no different to us, albeit on a currently simpler scale.

The Geth are a child of a race, they can and will expand to later become a true intelligent race. Killing them off early is wrong, just as killing off an organic race is. Quarians chose to kill them, and should they chose to fight to the death with them, that's their choice, but in ultimatum, the only thing seperating you from a synthetic person is that you are made of carbon-based cells and they are not.

A simple brain can only perform simple commands, but with time and development, it can perform more complex commands, understand emotions and do so accordingly. an AI can do the exact same. Give them time and they will become a true people, but if you don't give them the chance to expand, then they will remain on their level for good.

Neither side is correct in the situation, killing off either is a terrible thing to do. Neither side deserves to die as much as the other, and so that is why neither side is correct. Your argument is not correct to the point that the Geth should die, as much as someone elses argument that Quarians are killing off a child-race is equally incorrect. Peace is always the better option, as peace allows diversity and in the end, makes a better place. No one has to die, so why the hell should they?

[wantedman dan]

G Kevin wrote...

We told the calculator that in such a catastrophic event, do this.

The calculator does not choose the failsafe, it just does what the creator told him.

The Geth were used as tools before. The Quarians could have placed a fail-safe to prevent the Geth from crashing while they work.

If the Geth were simply in tool status still, they would not have understood their own operating perimeters and instead unwittingly tripped the failsafe; therefore, the Geth, according to your calculator logic, would have explained so. As in "Error: Cannot compute."

Instead, they offered the notion that "We could not comprehend" which denotes interpretation. A calculator cannot interpret what a set of data will mean. It will only compute.

[wantedman dan]

G Kevin wrote...

They do have things of their own. Simple way to put that is instincts. Still fair point. It does not measure intelligence.

Question here is, when have the Geth ever had a situation that required them to make decisions on incomplete data. Seemingly, they require and outside influence to make a decision for them.

The Morning War does not compute with you?

[TeffexPope]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If I'm trolling, then that means that you can prove that Geth are people.

Please do so.

Not what trolling means.

How am I trolling by bringing up a point which everyone is too stupid to refute. If I was trolling then I would be saying something nonsensical, like Quarians aren't people or humans aren't people or Krogan aren't animals.

The Geth are clearly not people because they are a lesser life form. They're tools.

See going and calling everyone here stupid is another way to not win any fans.

If I have to explain what trolling is to you or how it appears that you are then you shouldn't be on the internet.

But if you wanna look at the cannon then it goes like this. The Geth started off as tools became self aware devolped emotions and started making irational decisions as well. Like fixing holes with substandard materials. There for they are no longer tools and are on par with other senient life and can be refered to as people.

They are not people. People are individuals. People are born unique.

Geth are not individuals. Even if they become individuals they are not created uniquely. All geth are created exactly the same, like anything created in a factory. Only experience makes them different.

Real people are born unique, and also change by their experiece as well. They are superior.

EDIT:

I don't give a damn about the Codex or anything Bioware says about anything. In order to be a race, you actually have to be alive.

yeah well, according to the codex, one of the requirements for an AI is a "blue box". If an AI is uploaded into a blue box, taken out, then loaded into another one, a new personality is made due to "variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results (which) create unpredictable results." That's about the same as being born unique.

Modifié par TeffexPope, 13 mai 2012 - 07:46 .

[ArchDuck]

ArchDuck wrote...

OP is presenting an emotional conclusion as an argument. There is no way to debate it because it is emotional based and thus not subject to intellectually reasoning.

Please quit feeding the troll.

Hey, look at this beauty of a Public Service Announcement, maybe more people should listen.

[G Kevin]

wantedman dan wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

We told the calculator that in such a catastrophic event, do this.

The calculator does not choose the failsafe, it just does what the creator told him.

The Geth were used as tools before. The Quarians could have placed a fail-safe to prevent the Geth from crashing while they work.

If the Geth were simply in tool status still, they would not have understood their own operating perimeters and instead unwittingly tripped the failsafe; therefore, the Geth, according to your calculator logic, would have explained so. As in "Error: Cannot compute."

Instead, they offered the notion that "We could not comprehend" which denotes interpretation. A calculator cannot interpret what a set of data will mean. It will only compute.

The Geth put "Cannot Compute" into language, which translates to "We could not comprehend."

@ Grover

I made peace for that very reason.

I see the potential with the Geth but as they stand now, I can't consider them people in a traditional sense.

Alright, well I'm off to bed (3:47 AM here lol).

Good discussion we had, even though it all started with a "troll bait." 

[NS Wizdum]

G Kevin wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Do humans have anything to call their own? Or are they just copying the actions and beliefs of their parents, and those around them? Intelligence is not determined by "having something of their own". Intelligence is a combination of morals, higher reasoning, and personality. A virtual intelligence takes information from its environment, compares it to known situations, and then produces a result. Like a calculator, computing 4 * 4. The integer 4 is defined, and the multiplication function is also defined. True intelligence allows us to make decisions and choices based on incomplete data, undefined variables, and unknown factors. Intelligence also involves the desire to learn and modify our core programming as we encounter new situations and assimilate new information.

They do have things of their own. Simple way to put that is instincts. Still fair point. It does not measure intelligence.

Question here is, when have the Geth ever had a situation that required them to make decisions on incomplete data. Seemingly, they require and outside influence to make a decision for them.

MOIST N FLUFFY wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

MOIST N FLUFFY wrote...

Time for an IF THEN statement from a purely physical standpoint:
IF Geth are machines, THEN some machines must be Geth
IF Geth operate by use of electrical impulses, THEN some machines must use electrical impulses to operate
IF humans use electrical impulses (neuron interaction, nerves, etc...) to operate, THEN some machines must be humans
IF some machines are Geth and some machines are humans, THEN humans and Geth are both machines
IF humans and Geth are both machines, THEN humans and Geth are the same.

It's flawless logic. Flawless. Undeniable. Fact.

By that same logic, all humans are same to every living being that has a brain.

Precisely. 

But is that the case?

Only we, humans, are placed on the top because we are intelligent enough to use technology.

Instincts are still just based on information that has been assimilated over the years, combined with programmed automatic functions (classic psychological example is a breastfeeding baby). Legion sacrificing himself comes pretty close to making a decision based on incomplete data. He knows what will happen in the short term, but not in the long term. The Geth have never really had a chance to show real intelligence, since most of our interaction with them has been through conflict, which is a situation that is dominated by rational decisions.

EDI, for example, has shown both an interest in learning, and a capacity for "irrational" decisions (the conscious choice to disregard self-preservation and sacrifice herself for others).

[wantedman dan]

G Kevin wrote...

The Geth put "Cannot Compute" into language, which translates to "We could not comprehend."

Comprehension is directly associated to understanding. Computation is only one facet of it. 

You are wrong.

[Tapkomet]

OP, there is an organisation that shares the same ideals as you. Their colours are black and red. Last I heard, they were blasting Alliance and turian military, but don't worry, they will get to synthetics really soon. Hurry up and join them!

[Tapkomet]

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]

Shepard

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Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

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Wrex

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Shepard

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Wrex.

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Shepard

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Wrex.

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Shepard.

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Wrex.

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Shepard.

[MOIST N FLUFFY]

G Kevin wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Do humans have anything to call their own? Or are they just copying the actions and beliefs of their parents, and those around them? Intelligence is not determined by "having something of their own". Intelligence is a combination of morals, higher reasoning, and personality. A virtual intelligence takes information from its environment, compares it to known situations, and then produces a result. Like a calculator, computing 4 * 4. The integer 4 is defined, and the multiplication function is also defined. True intelligence allows us to make decisions and choices based on incomplete data, undefined variables, and unknown factors. Intelligence also involves the desire to learn and modify our core programming as we encounter new situations and assimilate new information.

They do have things of their own. Simple way to put that is instincts. Still fair point. It does not measure intelligence.

Question here is, when have the Geth ever had a situation that required them to make decisions on incomplete data. Seemingly, they require and outside influence to make a decision for them.

MOIST N FLUFFY wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

MOIST N FLUFFY wrote...

Time for an IF THEN statement from a purely physical standpoint:
IF Geth are machines, THEN some machines must be Geth
IF Geth operate by use of electrical impulses, THEN some machines must use electrical impulses to operate
IF humans use electrical impulses (neuron interaction, nerves, etc...) to operate, THEN some machines must be humans
IF some machines are Geth and some machines are humans, THEN humans and Geth are both machines
IF humans and Geth are both machines, THEN humans and Geth are the same.

It's flawless logic. Flawless. Undeniable. Fact.

By that same logic, all humans are same to every living being that has a brain.

Precisely. 

But is that the case?

Only we, humans, are placed on the top because we are intelligent enough to use technology.

So it is the capability of harnessing technology that makes us people? Do not the Geth use technology? Can a tool command the use of another tool to accomplish a task? 

The IF THEN statement I provided is very simple, but effectively reveals that whatever quality we use to define a human must be intangible. Surely we would not consider ourselves the same as insects. As you pointed out, we humans are on top in this world. So if intellect is the one thing that makes us human, Geth are certainly capable of our intellect, if not greater intellect. Then again, would we consider a mentally handicapped person to not be human because they lacked the intellect needed to harness technology? I submit that whatever idea we use to qualify a being as a person must be existential in nature. Otherwise an IF THEN statement will always be capable of defying our conclusions.

[TeffexPope]

[quote]SergeantSnookie wrote...

[quote]Tapkomet wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

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Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

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Wrex.

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Shepard

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Wrex.

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Shepard

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Wrex

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Shepard

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Wrex.

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Shepard

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Wrex.

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Shepard.

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Wrex.

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Shepard.

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Wrex.

[/quote]

Shepard.

[Rane7685]

Umm to be a little pedantic quarians arent people either. Humans are people (and in the US corporations are people apparently lol). I think the idea is to consider life in all its various forms. Whether that be a synthetic or otherwise. What you are arguing is some sort of fidelity to biological life. This game invites you to look beyond these simplistic mindsets and appreciate something more complex. Kill the quarians or kill the geth you can make your own justifications. The merit of your position should be on how well reasoned your choice is. Declarations of genocide tend to be (especially on BSN) banal

[Shallyah]

Geth are an emulation, an imitation of life, not life.

Saying Geth are a form of life is as correct as saying that John Rambo or Indiana Jones are real people.

But in truth, Arnold Schwarzennegger and Harrison Ford are the real people, and those characters are mere interpretations, emulations, imitations. Just as much as the Quarians are the real people and the Geth are interpretations, emulations, and imitations of life.

Whoever doesn't want to see it has gone to deep into Sci-Fi and trespassed the line of Fantasy. Machines are not alive, no matter how hard you try to convince others that they're "sentient" and "sapient". Even if they were, those are not the defining traits of life. A heart pumping, a mother's caress, and a child's smile are the defining traits of life, of which the Geth, or any machines, have none. And if they did it'd be once again Space Magic, not anything that made any sense from any scientifical point of view.

Modifié par Shallyah, 13 mai 2012 - 08:55 .

[hoodaticus]

[quote]TeffexPope wrote...

[quote]SergeantSnookie wrote...

[quote]Tapkomet wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

[quote]TheClonesLegacy wrote...

[quote]Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]

Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex

[/quote]
Shepard

[/quote]

Wrex.

[/quote]
Shepard

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Wrex.

[/quote]

Shepard.

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Wrex.

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Shepard.

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Wrex.

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Shepard.

[/quote]

Wrex.

[hoodaticus]

AI's do not have souls, but sufficiently sophisticated ones would have rights if for no other reason than their capacity to suffer in some form.

[Shallyah]

It's funny to see so many adressing the Geth as real people just because Space Magic and bad writing made them look like that, while they keep complaining about Space Magic and bad writing in about everything else in the game.

[hoodaticus]

Rane7685 wrote...

Umm to be a little pedantic quarians arent people either. Humans are people (and in the US corporations are people apparently lol).

Groupings of people are people.  They don't lose their rights just because they have decided to exercise their right to freely associate.

[o Ventus]

Biologically and physiologically, the geth are not people. Arguing this is just silly.

But after they develop true intelligence and a conscience, and therefore sapience, are they really only machines?

[Cuddlezarro]

hoodaticus wrote...

AI's do not have souls, but sufficiently sophisticated ones would have rights if for no other reason than their capacity to suffer in some form.

people dont have souls either

[Superstarsage]

Shallyah wrote...

It's funny to see so many adressing the Geth as real people just because Space Magic and bad writing made them look like that, while they keep complaining about Space Magic and bad writing in about everything else in the game.

Wha? Life=people? whoa man, you just blew my mind.

I agree with the lifeform thing which coincidentially isn't the same as being a sentient being. Calling it sentient life is just a broader spectrum way to handle the subject. Considering the geth feel fear (regardless of whether you call it based on sheer calculations and that they didn't actually feel the EMOTION fear, they did not want to die), and also considering they each have their own perspective and viewpoint and reach consensus' it's... it's pretty much sentient life, as well as sapient (don't quote me on sapient, my knowledge of the term is a little rusty).

They learn, they grow in technology, knowledge, intelligence, and in some ways personality (consensus that can be split.)

[Tapkomet]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

AI's do not have souls, but sufficiently sophisticated ones would have rights if for no other reason than their capacity to suffer in some form.

people dont have souls either

Legion has a soul. Only gingers don't.

[Archontor]

Shallyah wrote...

Geth are an emulation, an imitation of life, not life.

Saying Geth are a form of life is as correct as saying that John Rambo or Indiana Jones are real people.

But in truth, Arnold Schwarszenager and Harrison Ford are the real people, and those characters are mere interpretations, emulations, imitations. Just as much as the Quarians are the real people and the Geth are interpretations, emulations, and imitations of life.

Whoever doesn't want to see it has gone to deep into Sci-Fi and trespassed the line of Fantasy. Machines are not alive, no matter how hard you try to convince others that they're "sentient" and "sapient". Even if they were, those are not the defining traits of life. A heart pumping, a mother's caress, and a child's smile are the defining traits of life, of which the Geth, or any machines, have none. And if they did it'd be once again Space Magic, not anything that made any sense from any scientifical point of view.

 

So if something is sapient and sentient but not alive it's okay to destroy them? Bull**** if something can ask you not to kill them then you shouldn't be doing it. 

Moreover you propose we need organic parts for our lives to matter, if I lost a leg would I be less of a person? No. And we can already be kept alive by artificial hearts. 

Not all people have mothers and not all children smile so that's just emotional nonsense.

[hoodaticus]

Tapkomet wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

AI's do not have souls, but sufficiently sophisticated ones would have rights if for no other reason than their capacity to suffer in some form.

people dont have souls either

Legion has a soul. Only gingers don't.

NICE!