901 réponses à ce sujet

[SovereignX6]

I agree. We need to accept Reality. I'd probably trust any organic than a synthetic. Yet so religious.

[Volc19]

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Volc19 wrote...

Whoever doesn't save that beautiful race of genocidal, war-mongering, self-sabotaging organics over the horrid race of peaceful, far-more-useful-in-combat synthetics is a monster and should be flogged in public.

I also love the endings and think ME1 wasn't good.

/heavy heaping doses of sarcasm that, if actualized, could drown a whale.

...So it would be so deep the Whale couldn't Breach it for air?

That is precisely how much sarsasm there was in my post, yes.

[Catamantaloedis]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

And thus Legion is the only Geth who is an individual who was only created to interact with the outside world.

Legion is actually a mini-collective of geth.

ok

[Deuterium_Dawn]

MisterJB wrote...

Does anyone wants to make a bet on which species will the next thread be focused on?
I say vorcha.

Eh, Vorcha aren't very popular. He'll probably turn around and attack the Quarians next, to get the Tali fanbase. Or maybe the Turians.

[111987]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Geth are different though. Even before the upgrades, we see how they change due to experience, and can reach different conclusions based on the same evidence. Just like a human.

Also, how are we superior? The Geth are physically superior, mentally superior, are immortal, and far less prone to conflict than organics because of the way they reach consensus. No poverty, oppression, or anything like that in Geth society.

A real person is created unique. Geth are not. 

They do not have personhood. They are chinatown imitations of life.

The Geth are created unique. Even in their early stages they were built for specific functions

Also, even if you make the argument that the Geth aren't people, what about us makes us superior to them?

Being a person is infinitely more valuable than being an imitation of a person. That's what makes real people superior.

What about all the physical and mental advantages of being a Geth that I noted?

And since the Geth did gain individuality your one point is dead in the water.

[Catamantaloedis]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Does anyone wants to make a bet on which species will the next thread be focused on?
I say vorcha.

Eh, Vorcha aren't very popular. He'll probably turn around and attack the Quarians next, to get the Tali fanbase. Or maybe the Turians.

I'm a huge fan of the Quarians and the Turians, despite their fascist regime.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Geth are different though. Even before the upgrades, we see how they change due to experience, and can reach different conclusions based on the same evidence. Just like a human.

Also, how are we superior? The Geth are physically superior, mentally superior, are immortal, and far less prone to conflict than organics because of the way they reach consensus. No poverty, oppression, or anything like that in Geth society.

A real person is created unique. Geth are not. 

They do not have personhood. They are chinatown imitations of life.

The Geth are created unique. Even in their early stages they were built for specific functions

Also, even if you make the argument that the Geth aren't people, what about us makes us superior to them?

Being a person is infinitely more valuable than being an imitation of a person. That's what makes real people superior.

Actually more things like Imagination but whatever Vague reasons like "Cause is Person Hawnk"
Works So much better

[GreyLycanTrope]

race is defined amongst other things as:
1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution

So it depends on one's perspective, same goes for defining people or life and I'm not getting into that, especially with someone who also tries to bring supremacy of certain kinds of life over others into the argument.

Racism - a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

[ArchDuck]

OP is presenting an emotional conclusion as an argument. There is no way to debate it because it is emotional based and thus not subject to intellectually reasoning.

Please quit feeding the troll.

[ZIPO396]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If I'm trolling, then that means that you can prove that Geth are people.

Please do so.

Not what trolling means.

How am I trolling by bringing up a point which everyone is too stupid to refute. If I was trolling then I would be saying something nonsensical, like Quarians aren't people or humans aren't people or Krogan aren't animals.

The Geth are clearly not people because they are a lesser life form. They're tools.

See going and calling everyone here stupid is another way to not win any fans.

If I have to explain what trolling is to you or how it appears that you are then you shouldn't be on the internet.

But if you wanna look at the cannon then it goes like this. The Geth started off as tools became self aware devolped emotions and started making irational decisions as well. Like fixing holes with substandard materials. There for they are no longer tools and are on par with other senient life and can be refered to as people.

They are not people. People are individuals. People are born unique.

Geth are not individuals. Even if they become individuals they are not created uniquely. All geth are created exactly the same, like anything created in a factory. Only experience makes them different.

Real people are born unique, and also change by their experiece as well. They are superior.

EDIT:

I don't give a damn about the Codex or anything Bioware says about anything. In order to be a race, you actually have to be alive.

"HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR"

We aren't really born unique. We're all born the same way really well one of two ways really. But I won't go into that here.

It's likely Geth have various minor deviations in their code like humans do in their genetics so they are unique.

Oh now that is a slippery slope. I ask you sir what does it mean to be "alive"?

Except there's exactly 0% proof that the Geth are created differently, and its extremely likely that they were all created the same, because they had no value on individuality before the Reapers came, because they were a collective. And thus Legion is the only Geth who is an individual who was only created to interact with the outside world.

Shows how much attention you paid to everythign in the game.

I'm sorry but even as they are they were all created for different tasks and are all minorly different. Would you consider the Rachni alive and people? You don't need to value individuality to be alive. None of us are an individual really. At the most basic level we all think and feel the same we all cry as babies and want food and warmth and as we get experience we learn and crave other things. As the Geth expeirience they wanted different things as well. Also Legion is a collective of programs thus many Geth. Geth who are all individuals in their decision making which after being colated becomes the platfroms actions.

[Catamantaloedis]

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Geth are different though. Even before the upgrades, we see how they change due to experience, and can reach different conclusions based on the same evidence. Just like a human.

Also, how are we superior? The Geth are physically superior, mentally superior, are immortal, and far less prone to conflict than organics because of the way they reach consensus. No poverty, oppression, or anything like that in Geth society.

A real person is created unique. Geth are not. 

They do not have personhood. They are chinatown imitations of life.

The Geth are created unique. Even in their early stages they were built for specific functions

Also, even if you make the argument that the Geth aren't people, what about us makes us superior to them?

Being a person is infinitely more valuable than being an imitation of a person. That's what makes real people superior.

What about all the physical and mental advantages of being a Geth that I noted?

And since the Geth did gain individuality your one point is dead in the water.

Even when Geth are individuals they are created as a blank slate. They are not unique from their creations. Organic people are born unique.

The Geth are superior in the same way that a machine in a factory is superior. It can do a lot of things better than a person, but  it's no equal to a person.

[RoboticWater]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Nowhere in the dictionary is 'people' or 'person' defined by individuality.

per·son   [pur-suhn]  Show IPAnoun1.a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The tableseats four persons.
2.a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
3.Sociology . an individual human being, especially withreference to his or her social relationships and 
behavioralpatterns as conditioned by the culture.
4.Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being.
5.the actual self or individual personality  of a human being:You ought not to generalize, but to consider the 
person you aredealing with.


Actally, it does refernce "individual" but it also says a person is a human. So the quarians aren't people either.

Modifié par BlahDog, 13 mai 2012 - 05:22 .

[Bill Casey]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

A real person is created unique.

What about quadruplets?

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 mai 2012 - 05:20 .

[Catamantaloedis]

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If I'm trolling, then that means that you can prove that Geth are people.

Please do so.

Not what trolling means.

How am I trolling by bringing up a point which everyone is too stupid to refute. If I was trolling then I would be saying something nonsensical, like Quarians aren't people or humans aren't people or Krogan aren't animals.

The Geth are clearly not people because they are a lesser life form. They're tools.

See going and calling everyone here stupid is another way to not win any fans.

If I have to explain what trolling is to you or how it appears that you are then you shouldn't be on the internet.

But if you wanna look at the cannon then it goes like this. The Geth started off as tools became self aware devolped emotions and started making irational decisions as well. Like fixing holes with substandard materials. There for they are no longer tools and are on par with other senient life and can be refered to as people.

They are not people. People are individuals. People are born unique.

Geth are not individuals. Even if they become individuals they are not created uniquely. All geth are created exactly the same, like anything created in a factory. Only experience makes them different.

Real people are born unique, and also change by their experiece as well. They are superior.

EDIT:

I don't give a damn about the Codex or anything Bioware says about anything. In order to be a race, you actually have to be alive.

"HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR"

We aren't really born unique. We're all born the same way really well one of two ways really. But I won't go into that here.

It's likely Geth have various minor deviations in their code like humans do in their genetics so they are unique.

Oh now that is a slippery slope. I ask you sir what does it mean to be "alive"?

Except there's exactly 0% proof that the Geth are created differently, and its extremely likely that they were all created the same, because they had no value on individuality before the Reapers came, because they were a collective. And thus Legion is the only Geth who is an individual who was only created to interact with the outside world.

Shows how much attention you paid to everythign in the game.

I'm sorry but even as they are they were all created for different tasks and are all minorly different. Would you consider the Rachni alive and people? You don't need to value individuality to be alive. None of us are an individual really. At the most basic level we all think and feel the same we all cry as babies and want food and warmth and as we get experience we learn and crave other things. As the Geth expeirience they wanted different things as well. Also Legion is a collective of programs thus many Geth. Geth who are all individuals in their decision making which after being colated becomes the platfroms actions.

The geth created for those different tasks do not differ among themselves. If you instruct those geth to perform some task a minute after they are created, they would all do the same thing.

An organic person, fresh from the womb would show a variety of different behaviors to similar stimuli because they are born unique.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Bill Casey wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

A real person is created unique.

What about quadruplets?

They still have Unique Personalities and Knowledge Gained throughout their Lives...Geth can Transmit that Shizz Wirelessly
Same goes for Quintuplets and Octoplets
Also Unique Dna Codes and Brain Patterns

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 13 mai 2012 - 05:22 .

[Torrible]

It's a bit cheap that a newly created Geth need not go through the usual process of intellectual and moral development as organics. But make no mistake, if you can demonstrate introspection, curiosity, loyalty and anger, you are a person. If we were to choose the Quarians over the Geth, we need more reasons than "the Geth are currently only 95% sentient".

[eddieoctane]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Hmm. For the sake of reasoned conversation: While I would say that the geth have achieved 'sapience', they lack all of the biological functions that make a 'person'. They don't feel physical or mental pain, they don't have any of the necessary biological triggers for 'love', about the only thing they feel is a sense of self-preservation similar to any animal.

It's hard to figure out the logic of things in a fictional video game universe though.

The human brain is a network of electrical connections. Given a sufficiently developed computer, and barring the existence of a soul or some other non-scienetific factor which influences thought (which requires religion, and ME has essentially done away with it), a human brain can be replicated with software. This would include the ability to feel emotion.

As far as the Geth not being unique, they only just attained independence of self. Unique experiences can only just start to form now. There's an entire field of psychology dealing iwth how different experiences produce different reactions to the same stimuli. It's a very weak argument to say that the Geth aren't "people" just because they haven't had their subjective experiences yet. It's like arguing a human isn't a person until they are old enough to actually recall memories.

[Mr.Kingsnake]

I love how no one stood up for the Gasbags when they were slaughtered on Eden Prime. DISCRIMINATION, I SAY!

[TheClonesLegacy]

Torrible wrote...

It's a bit cheap that a newly created Geth need not go through the usual process of intellectual and moral development as organics. But make no mistake, if you can demonstrate introspection, curiosity, loyalty and anger, you are a person. If we were to choose the Quarians over the Geth, we need more reasons than "the Geth are currently only 95% sentient".

I chose Both survive hence why I'm just sticking around Counter Argueing everything

[Catamantaloedis]

eddieoctane wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Hmm. For the sake of reasoned conversation: While I would say that the geth have achieved 'sapience', they lack all of the biological functions that make a 'person'. They don't feel physical or mental pain, they don't have any of the necessary biological triggers for 'love', about the only thing they feel is a sense of self-preservation similar to any animal.

It's hard to figure out the logic of things in a fictional video game universe though.

The human brain is a network of electrical connections. Given a sufficiently developed computer, and barring the existence of a soul or some other non-scienetific factor which influences thought (which requires religion, and ME has essentially done away with it), a human brain can be replicated with software. This would include the ability to feel emotion.

As far as the Geth not being unique, they only just attained independence of self. Unique experiences can only just start to form now. There's an entire field of psychology dealing iwth how different experiences produce different reactions to the same stimuli. It's a very weak argument to say that the Geth aren't "people" just because they haven't had their subjective experiences yet. It's like arguing a human isn't a person until they are old enough to actually recall memories.

Except that humans would react uniquely to different stimuli from birth, it has nothing to do with how mature they are. Geth are not like that.

[Galifreya]

Hrmmm...how about "make peace, or either way you're an a**hole"? Just a thought.

Also, OP, do you prefer quarters, nickles, or dimes?

Modifié par Gallifreya, 13 mai 2012 - 05:24 .

[ZIPO396]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If I'm trolling, then that means that you can prove that Geth are people.

Please do so.

Not what trolling means.

How am I trolling by bringing up a point which everyone is too stupid to refute. If I was trolling then I would be saying something nonsensical, like Quarians aren't people or humans aren't people or Krogan aren't animals.

The Geth are clearly not people because they are a lesser life form. They're tools.

See going and calling everyone here stupid is another way to not win any fans.

If I have to explain what trolling is to you or how it appears that you are then you shouldn't be on the internet.

But if you wanna look at the cannon then it goes like this. The Geth started off as tools became self aware devolped emotions and started making irational decisions as well. Like fixing holes with substandard materials. There for they are no longer tools and are on par with other senient life and can be refered to as people.

They are not people. People are individuals. People are born unique.

Geth are not individuals. Even if they become individuals they are not created uniquely. All geth are created exactly the same, like anything created in a factory. Only experience makes them different.

Real people are born unique, and also change by their experiece as well. They are superior.

EDIT:

I don't give a damn about the Codex or anything Bioware says about anything. In order to be a race, you actually have to be alive.

"HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR"

We aren't really born unique. We're all born the same way really well one of two ways really. But I won't go into that here.

It's likely Geth have various minor deviations in their code like humans do in their genetics so they are unique.

Oh now that is a slippery slope. I ask you sir what does it mean to be "alive"?

Except there's exactly 0% proof that the Geth are created differently, and its extremely likely that they were all created the same, because they had no value on individuality before the Reapers came, because they were a collective. And thus Legion is the only Geth who is an individual who was only created to interact with the outside world.

Shows how much attention you paid to everythign in the game.

I'm sorry but even as they are they were all created for different tasks and are all minorly different. Would you consider the Rachni alive and people? You don't need to value individuality to be alive. None of us are an individual really. At the most basic level we all think and feel the same we all cry as babies and want food and warmth and as we get experience we learn and crave other things. As the Geth expeirience they wanted different things as well. Also Legion is a collective of programs thus many Geth. Geth who are all individuals in their decision making which after being colated becomes the platfroms actions.

The geth created for those different tasks do not differ among themselves. If you instruct those geth to perform some task a minute after they are created, they would all do the same thing.

An organic person, fresh from the womb would show a variety of different behaviors to similar stimuli because they are born unique.

We have 0% proof of that.

It's quiet possible so have the Geth. But alas I tire of someone who lacks reason and understanding and has so far shown himself to meet a very specific word in the dictionary others have been pointing out.

[111987]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Geth are different though. Even before the upgrades, we see how they change due to experience, and can reach different conclusions based on the same evidence. Just like a human.

Also, how are we superior? The Geth are physically superior, mentally superior, are immortal, and far less prone to conflict than organics because of the way they reach consensus. No poverty, oppression, or anything like that in Geth society.

A real person is created unique. Geth are not. 

They do not have personhood. They are chinatown imitations of life.

The Geth are created unique. Even in their early stages they were built for specific functions

Also, even if you make the argument that the Geth aren't people, what about us makes us superior to them?

Being a person is infinitely more valuable than being an imitation of a person. That's what makes real people superior.

What about all the physical and mental advantages of being a Geth that I noted?

And since the Geth did gain individuality your one point is dead in the water.

Even when Geth are individuals they are created as a blank slate. They are not unique from their creations. Organic people are born unique.

The Geth are superior in the same way that a machine in a factory is superior. It can do a lot of things better than a person, but  it's no equal to a person.

How can you say that? Psychology has shown that while some traits might be biologically based, pretty much every characteristic can be determined via the environment. Babies are basically blank slates as well.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Gallifreya wrote...

Hrmmm...how about "make peace, or either way you're an a**hole"? Just a thought.

Also, OP, do you prefer quarters, nickles, or dimes?

No love for Loonies or Twoonies?
Sigh Americans
Lulz

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 13 mai 2012 - 05:26 .

[Catamantaloedis]

Gallifreya wrote...

Hrmmm...how about "make peace, or either way you're an a**hole"? Just a thought.

Also, do you prefer quarters, nickles, or dimes?

Making peace is a copout. In a game about making hard choices, its incredible counterintuitive how easy they make it for you to just ignore the hard choices.