901 réponses à ce sujet

[webhead921]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Ah, We meet again

Wrex eats trolls for breakfast.  

[wantedman dan]

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

A real person is created unique.

What about quadruplets?

They still have Unique Personalities and Knowledge Gained throughout their Lives...Geth can Transmit that Shizz Wirelessly
Same goes for Quintuplets and Octoplets
Also Unique Dna Codes and Brain Patterns

You're seriously protecting this racist ideology?

[ZIPO396]

Mr.Kingsnake wrote...

I love how no one stood up for the Gasbags when they were slaughtered on Eden Prime. DISCRIMINATION, I SAY!

I saved a many as I could. I was also careful not to hit the Podcrabs on Virmire.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

Wrex.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.

Shepard

[Yearlongjester]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

And thus Legion is the only Geth who is an individual who was only created to interact with the outside world.

Legion is actually a mini-collective of geth.

This. Legion is over a thousand singular Geth stored in a single platform. Ignoring the troll, the question becomes:

"Is Legion a single person, or over a thousand people?"

[wizardryforever]

Even if I take your word for it that the Geth aren't people (despite the vast amount of evidence to the contrary), why is it okay to kill them but not the Quarians?  By all accounts the Quarians brought about their own demise by attacking the Geth in the first place, then coming back for more 300 years later without stopping to consider that the Geth may not actually want them dead.  If they had, the Geth wouldn't have let the Migrant Fleet leave at the end of the Morning War.

The Geth are more useful as an ally and they have the moral high-ground.  If I have to choose (which isn't often, as I can almost always make peace), logic seems to favor saving the Geth.

[ArchDuck]

One again a PSA:

ArchDuck wrote...

OP is presenting an emotional conclusion as an argument. There is no way to debate it because it is emotional based and thus not subject to intellectually reasoning.

Please quit feeding the troll.

[RoboticWater]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Hrmmm...how about "make peace, or either way you're an a**hole"? Just a thought.

Also, do you prefer quarters, nickles, or dimes?

Making peace is a copout. In a game about making hard choices, its incredible counterintuitive how easy they make it for you to just ignore the hard choices.

So making peace in WWII, or any war for that matter, was a copout?

Peace was always foreshadowed as an option and it was not super easy to get peace (impossible for non-importers I think).

Modifié par BlahDog, 13 mai 2012 - 05:29 .

[ArchDuck]

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

[Catamantaloedis]

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Geth are different though. Even before the upgrades, we see how they change due to experience, and can reach different conclusions based on the same evidence. Just like a human.

Also, how are we superior? The Geth are physically superior, mentally superior, are immortal, and far less prone to conflict than organics because of the way they reach consensus. No poverty, oppression, or anything like that in Geth society.

A real person is created unique. Geth are not. 

They do not have personhood. They are chinatown imitations of life.

The Geth are created unique. Even in their early stages they were built for specific functions

Also, even if you make the argument that the Geth aren't people, what about us makes us superior to them?

Being a person is infinitely more valuable than being an imitation of a person. That's what makes real people superior.

What about all the physical and mental advantages of being a Geth that I noted?

And since the Geth did gain individuality your one point is dead in the water.

Even when Geth are individuals they are created as a blank slate. They are not unique from their creations. Organic people are born unique.

The Geth are superior in the same way that a machine in a factory is superior. It can do a lot of things better than a person, but  it's no equal to a person.

How can you say that? Psychology has shown that while some traits might be biologically based, pretty much every characteristic can be determined via the environment. Babies are basically blank slates as well.

That's incredibly inaccurate. Humans are actually not blank slates. They are born with certain temperaments,and predispositions towards certain personalities. You cannot ignore the role of genetics in personality because it is huge.

[eddieoctane]

Catamantaloedis wrote...


Except that humans would react uniquely to different stimuli from birth, it has nothing to do with how mature they are. Geth are not like that.

This is becuase of physiological differences (most of which are related to genetics). Once said differences are removed, some psychologists would argue that they wouldn't act any differently. There is a uniqueness that occurs naturally in organics. The Geth only gained their inherent uniqueness at the end of the Rannoch story arc. My point still stands. They need time for their ability to act uniquely to manifest itself.

[TheClonesLegacy]

ArchDuck wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

Shepard

[Made Nightwing]

eddieoctane wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Hmm. For the sake of reasoned conversation: While I would say that the geth have achieved 'sapience', they lack all of the biological functions that make a 'person'. They don't feel physical or mental pain, they don't have any of the necessary biological triggers for 'love', about the only thing they feel is a sense of self-preservation similar to any animal.

It's hard to figure out the logic of things in a fictional video game universe though.

The human brain is a network of electrical connections. Given a sufficiently developed computer, and barring the existence of a soul or some other non-scienetific factor which influences thought (which requires religion, and ME has essentially done away with it), a human brain can be replicated with software. This would include the ability to feel emotion.

As far as the Geth not being unique, they only just attained independence of self. Unique experiences can only just start to form now. There's an entire field of psychology dealing iwth how different experiences produce different reactions to the same stimuli. It's a very weak argument to say that the Geth aren't "people" just because they haven't had their subjective experiences yet. It's like arguing a human isn't a person until they are old enough to actually recall memories.

ME hasn't technically done away with religion. They just don't address it in any capacity beyond Ash saying 'That's not a problem that I believe, right?' But technically, we're not discussing the issue of a 'soul' here. After all, a baby is as much a person as you or me. A baby starts off with just basic needs that need to be met.  But I disagree. Our brain reactions act in tandem with our body functions. A computer just can't realise the need to eat or procreate, or how those things influence our thoughts.

[Catamantaloedis]

eddieoctane wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...


Except that humans would react uniquely to different stimuli from birth, it has nothing to do with how mature they are. Geth are not like that.

This is becuase of physiological differences (most of which are related to genetics). Once said differences are removed, some psychologists would argue that they wouldn't act any differently. There is a uniqueness that occurs naturally in organics. The Geth only gained their inherent uniqueness at the end of the Rannoch story arc. My point still stands. They need time for their ability to act uniquely to manifest itself.

So you are stating that at the Geth factories, where they produce new Geth, these Geth are unique from their creation? I think that requires proof.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 13 mai 2012 - 05:32 .

[111987]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

That's incredibly inaccurate. Humans are actually not blank slates. They are born with certain temperaments,and predispositions towards certain personalities. You cannot ignore the role of genetics in personality because it is huge.

Yes, you are right. But it isn't as significant of a difference as you are suggesting.

No more significant than the Geth having different personalities, different experiences, different outlooks...

[Galifreya]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Hrmmm...how about "make peace, or either way you're an a**hole"? Just a thought.

Also, do you prefer quarters, nickles, or dimes?

Making peace is a copout. In a game about making hard choices, its incredible counterintuitive how easy they make it for you to just ignore the hard choices.

Hey, you didn't answer my second question. I need to know what to feed you. Would you prefer an assortment of all three?

[recentio]

Gold star anthropocentrism, OP. A few hundred years ago, you'd have been on about what an outrage it is to suggest the earth revolves around the sun. PEOPLE are on earth so of course the sun revolves around us. Today the notion that a non-biological mind might equal your own offends you, and to that, I say, get over yourself.

[ThatDancingTurian]

BlahDog wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Nowhere in the dictionary is 'people' or 'person' defined by individuality.

per·son   [pur-suhn]  Show IPAnoun1.a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The tableseats four persons.
2.a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
3.Sociology . an individual human being, especially withreference to his or her social relationships and 
behavioralpatterns as conditioned by the culture.
4.Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being.
5.the actual self or individual personality  of a human being:You ought not to generalize, but to consider the 
person you aredealing with.


Actally, it does refernce "individual" but it also says a person is a human. So the quarians aren't people either.

One could argue that definition is using the word 'individual' it to indicate a singular person, not referencing the uniqueness of said person. There are many individual (singular) geth programs. However, geth programs are not individual (unique or distinct).

As for the strictest definitions of personhood, Geth fit quite nicely into example #4 and can be argued for #2 dependent upon your definition of thing.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

Shepard

[TheClonesLegacy]

Gallifreya wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Hrmmm...how about "make peace, or either way you're an a**hole"? Just a thought.

Also, do you prefer quarters, nickles, or dimes?

Making peace is a copout. In a game about making hard choices, its incredible counterintuitive how easy they make it for you to just ignore the hard choices.

Hey, you didn't answer my second question. I need to know what to feed you. Would you prefer an assortment of all three?

I'll Ship you the Loonies and Twoonies also
They're much harder to Swallow

[ArchDuck]

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

Shepard

Wrex.

[MisterJB]

All of this hate is being wasted on the geth.
We should be hating the batarians instead.

[Catamantaloedis]

111987 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

That's incredibly inaccurate. Humans are actually not blank slates. They are born with certain temperaments,and predispositions towards certain personalities. You cannot ignore the role of genetics in personality because it is huge.

Yes, you are right. But it isn't as significant of a difference as you are suggesting.

No more significant than the Geth having different personalities, different experiences, different outlooks...

Except that people have all of those things as well, but are in fact born unique in addition, because of genetics which you are still downplaying despite it likely, since there's no real way of pinning down its exact influence, being extremely significant.