505 réponses à ce sujet

[araisikewai]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

People reject IT because its nonsense. If you have been reading these forums you would see most people are in favor of destroy even without IT.

If you play multi-player you get a split second breath but then what? What is the next step in the game? Is Sheaprd just going to hit the "LULZ I win button" and kill the Reapers? If Shepard is still on Earth wont Harby just kill him since the Reapers destroy what they cant use?

The Reapers are winning any way. Sword and Hammer are getting wiped out even before the final run. What room is there for a next game since all hope as been lost and the Crucible failed? Will it be the story of a hero fighting to the death with honor because I played that game already, its called Halo Reach and Im not keen on playing a Mass Effect copy.

Mass Effect
Episode IV:
A New Hope...? (I Hope...?)

Well truth be told in all actuallity I just wanted to shoot that Shepard son of a gun for being baffled by the Star-Child, in the next game. 

Though if you think about it, The Hero's fall isn't something new in Scifi/Fantasy setting, whether it be Annakin-Darth Vader, or as Blizzard repeated twice Arthas-Lich King, and Kerrigan-Queen of Blades. The only thing going against it was: it's nearing cliche.

[Tom Lehrer]

araisikewai wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

People reject IT because its nonsense. If you have been reading these forums you would see most people are in favor of destroy even without IT.

If you play multi-player you get a split second breath but then what? What is the next step in the game? Is Sheaprd just going to hit the "LULZ I win button" and kill the Reapers? If Shepard is still on Earth wont Harby just kill him since the Reapers destroy what they cant use?

The Reapers are winning any way. Sword and Hammer are getting wiped out even before the final run. What room is there for a next game since all hope as been lost and the Crucible failed? Will it be the story of a hero fighting to the death with honor because I played that game already, its called Halo Reach and Im not keen on playing a Mass Effect copy.

Mass Effect
Episode IV:
A New Hope...? (I Hope...?)

Well truth be told in all actuallity I just wanted to shoot that Shepard son of a gun for being baffled by the Star-Child, in the next game. 

Though if you think about it, The Hero's fall isn't something new in Scifi/Fantasy setting, whether it be Annakin-Darth Vader, or as Blizzard repeated twice Arthas-Lich King, and Kerrigan-Queen of Blades. The only thing going against it was: it's nearing cliche.

You fail to adress my question.

What 'new hope' could there be? Sword and Hammer are already being destroyed. The last hope of  the galaxy the Crucible has been lost. The Reapers win this cycle everyone dies. Playing some hold-out squad as they fight to death has been done already and it was not very good. 

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 13 mai 2012 - 01:41 .

[dreman9999]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Which one of them doesn't use the Child at the beggining and the following dream to make sense with the Indoc' Theory? Because any of them using the child are wrong based on script and art book )

None...They all use the idea that child is a hullcination.

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 mai 2012 - 02:11 .

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

araisikewai wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

People reject IT because its nonsense. If you have been reading these forums you would see most people are in favor of destroy even without IT.

If you play multi-player you get a split second breath but then what? What is the next step in the game? Is Sheaprd just going to hit the "LULZ I win button" and kill the Reapers? If Shepard is still on Earth wont Harby just kill him since the Reapers destroy what they cant use?

The Reapers are winning any way. Sword and Hammer are getting wiped out even before the final run. What room is there for a next game since all hope as been lost and the Crucible failed? Will it be the story of a hero fighting to the death with honor because I played that game already, its called Halo Reach and Im not keen on playing a Mass Effect copy.

Mass Effect
Episode IV:
A New Hope...? (I Hope...?)

Well truth be told in all actuallity I just wanted to shoot that Shepard son of a gun for being baffled by the Star-Child, in the next game. 

Though if you think about it, The Hero's fall isn't something new in Scifi/Fantasy setting, whether it be Annakin-Darth Vader, or as Blizzard repeated twice Arthas-Lich King, and Kerrigan-Queen of Blades. The only thing going against it was: it's nearing cliche.

You fail to adress my question.

What 'new hope' could there be? Sword and Hammer are already being destroyed. The last hope of  the galaxy the Crucible has been lost. The Reapers win this cycle everyone dies. Playing some hold-out squad as they fight to death has been done already and it was not very good. 

1. 3 theories of IT.
2.Sword is still there....
3.Hammer can be regrouped. Hammer was just the group that was going up the conduit, not the entire force.

[araisikewai]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

araisikewai wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

People reject IT because its nonsense. If you have been reading these forums you would see most people are in favor of destroy even without IT.

If you play multi-player you get a split second breath but then what? What is the next step in the game? Is Sheaprd just going to hit the "LULZ I win button" and kill the Reapers? If Shepard is still on Earth wont Harby just kill him since the Reapers destroy what they cant use?

The Reapers are winning any way. Sword and Hammer are getting wiped out even before the final run. What room is there for a next game since all hope as been lost and the Crucible failed? Will it be the story of a hero fighting to the death with honor because I played that game already, its called Halo Reach and Im not keen on playing a Mass Effect copy.

Mass Effect
Episode IV:
A New Hope...? (I Hope...?)

Well truth be told in all actuallity I just wanted to shoot that Shepard son of a gun for being baffled by the Star-Child, in the next game. 

Though if you think about it, The Hero's fall isn't something new in Scifi/Fantasy setting, whether it be Annakin-Darth Vader, or as Blizzard repeated twice Arthas-Lich King, and Kerrigan-Queen of Blades. The only thing going against it was: it's nearing cliche.

You fail to adress my question.

What 'new hope' could there be? Sword and Hammer are already being destroyed. The last hope of  the galaxy the Crucible has been lost. The Reapers win this cycle everyone dies. Playing some hold-out squad as they fight to death has been done already and it was not very good. 

If you've heard Javik story about the previous cycle, you'd realize that the war against Reaper has been going for hundreds of years during that cycle. Even if the front line was being pushed or decimated in this cycle, it doesn't really mean that all is lost already.

If you've read my reply carefully, you'll find out that I was actually thinking about a new protagonist, which didn't even have to have the same military background or being employed in the frontline at the moment. It might even happens after 10 years from war on earth. That's why getting a clean slate ending would be important for BW as well. For all we know, the only consequnce of IT is the Reaper War hasn't ended. It didn't spell it out as Organics been totally decimated. Bleak, yes, but not hopeless to the point of Javik's cycle.

[Grimgaww]

dreman9999 wrote...

 Most peopel miss this due to the fact that one of the three are the most popular commented on.
Let's go over all 3.

1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone know. It the one that stated everything is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands ou by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.)

All these version at the  point of star child  has varied directions of results of theries of the end.
Being:
The war is not over yet. And based on the choice Shepard makes he may or may not beat indoctination

It's a selecting of whether Sharperd activated the crucble or not. In reality.

It's a choice of ending the reapers  or letting them use the crucible as they see fit.("You let them implant you? Are you insane! " Shepard...ME1)

They are all tricks to get you to kill yourself.

Reguardless of what theory is used, Shepard is in the process of indoctriation till he makes a choice.
With that, it still means we don't know whats the results of the end reguardless.
Cheers.

So you're fighting for high EMS to get the best dream???
Love it.

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. 3 theories of IT. 
2.Sword is still there....
3.Hammer can be regrouped. Hammer was just the group that was going up the conduit, not the entire force.

1. How do any of them support an ME4?
2. It is still there but it is getting crushed.
3. Hammer droped all over Earth. Jack hints she is in France and Jacob says he is in Brazil. Even before the final run "Only half of Hammer is reporting in" 

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Which one of them doesn't use the Child at the beggining and the following dream to make sense with the Indoc' Theory? Because any of them using the child are wrong based on script and art book )

None...They all use the idea that child is a hullcination.

I don't think the Earthchild is a hallucination. That would require Shepard to be hallucinating while awake.

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. 3 theories of IT. 
2.Sword is still there....
3.Hammer can be regrouped. Hammer was just the group that was going up the conduit, not the entire force.

1. How do any of them support an ME4?
2. It is still there but it is getting crushed.
3. Hammer droped all over Earth. Jack hints she is in France and Jacob says he is in Brazil. Even before the final run "Only half of Hammer is reporting in" 

1. Who said anything about ME4?
2.They are still there...WHICH IS THE POINT.
3.Where does it say where they are, they only dropped in london. and also, hammer is just the group going after the citadel....

[Tom Lehrer]

araisikewai wrote...

If you've heard Javik story about the previous cycle, you'd realize that the war against Reaper has been going for hundreds of years during that cycle. Even if the front line was being pushed or decimated in this cycle, it doesn't really mean that all is lost already.

If you've read my reply carefully, you'll find out that I was actually thinking about a new protagonist, which didn't even have to have the same military background or being employed in the frontline at the moment. It might even happens after 10 years from war on earth. That's why getting a clean slate ending would be important for BW as well. For all we know, the only consequnce of IT is the Reaper War hasn't ended. It didn't spell it out as Organics been totally decimated. Bleak, yes, but not hopeless to the point of Javik's cycle.

If you talk to Liara she says it will only take the Reapers a century to wipe out this cycle and if you read her notes we learn the galactic economy will fall in under a year. With the battle of Earth failed every fleet in the galaxy has been destroyed. Many of the top military leaders are dead. 

The battle for Earth was THE final push the win or lose it all moment for this cycle. If the Reapers win there everything else is just clean up.

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Who said anything about ME4?
2.They are still there...WHICH IS THE POINT.
3.Where does it say where they are, they only dropped in london. and also, hammer is just the group going after the citadel....

1.The topic I was discussing with the other guy was the idea that IT supports an ME4
2. Sword fleet is done. Their lines have been broken.
3. In the holo goodbyes Jack says she is 'A ways south' and Jacob says he is in Rio.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 13 mai 2012 - 02:36 .

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

araisikewai wrote...

If you've heard Javik story about the previous cycle, you'd realize that the war against Reaper has been going for hundreds of years during that cycle. Even if the front line was being pushed or decimated in this cycle, it doesn't really mean that all is lost already.

If you've read my reply carefully, you'll find out that I was actually thinking about a new protagonist, which didn't even have to have the same military background or being employed in the frontline at the moment. It might even happens after 10 years from war on earth. That's why getting a clean slate ending would be important for BW as well. For all we know, the only consequnce of IT is the Reaper War hasn't ended. It didn't spell it out as Organics been totally decimated. Bleak, yes, but not hopeless to the point of Javik's cycle.

If you talk to Liara she says it will only take the Reapers a century to wipe out this cycle and if you read her notes we learn the galactic economy will fall in under a year. With the battle of Earth failed every fleet in the galaxy has been destroyed. Many of the top military leaders are dead. 

The battle for Earth was THE final push the win or lose it all moment for this cycle. If the Reapers win there everything else is just clean up.

But who said anything about it carrying over to ME4? We can still have the end of the reapers in this battle.

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Who said anything about ME4?
2.They are still there...WHICH IS THE POINT.
3.Where does it say where they are, they only dropped in london. and also, hammer is just the group going after the citadel....

1.The topic I was discussing with the other guy was the idea that IT supports an ME4
2. Sword fleet is done. Their lines have been broken.
3. In the holo goodbyes Jack says she is 'A ways south' and Jacob says he is in Rio.

2. No, they are still hold there line...It's notover yet.
3.No he did not...
 
He was talking about a bar in Rio.

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Which one of them doesn't use the Child at the beggining and the following dream to make sense with the Indoc' Theory? Because any of them using the child are wrong based on script and art book )

None...They all use the idea that child is a hullcination.

I don't think the Earthchild is a hallucination. That would require Shepard to be hallucinating while awake.

....People can hallucinate when they are awake. That's normally when it happes.

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Which one of them doesn't use the Child at the beggining and the following dream to make sense with the Indoc' Theory? Because any of them using the child are wrong based on script and art book )

None...They all use the idea that child is a hullcination.

I don't think the Earthchild is a hallucination. That would require Shepard to be hallucinating while awake.

....People can hallucinate when they are awake. That's normally when it happes.

It would imply that he's pretty heavily indoctrinated at that point if the reapers can make him see things that aren't there outside of the dreamworld. If Vendetta couldn't detect that level of indoctrination, then Vendetta's sensors are terrible.

Either that, or Shepard's insane by himself already.

Modifié par KingZayd, 13 mai 2012 - 02:51 .

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Which one of them doesn't use the Child at the beggining and the following dream to make sense with the Indoc' Theory? Because any of them using the child are wrong based on script and art book )

None...They all use the idea that child is a hullcination.

I don't think the Earthchild is a hallucination. That would require Shepard to be hallucinating while awake.

....People can hallucinate when they are awake. That's normally when it happes.

It would imply that he's pretty heavily indoctrinated at that point if the reapers can make him see things that aren't there outside of the dreamworld. If Vendetta couldn't detect that level of indoctrination, then Vendetta's sensors are terrible.

Either that, or Shepard's insane by himself already.

Or there Reapers there who can impose influece due to being close enough to extened there power. Anyway hallutionations is not a late stage symtom...It's an early stage one.

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 mai 2012 - 02:58 .

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Which one of them doesn't use the Child at the beggining and the following dream to make sense with the Indoc' Theory? Because any of them using the child are wrong based on script and art book )

None...They all use the idea that child is a hullcination.

I don't think the Earthchild is a hallucination. That would require Shepard to be hallucinating while awake.

....People can hallucinate when they are awake. That's normally when it happes.

It would imply that he's pretty heavily indoctrinated at that point if the reapers can make him see things that aren't there outside of the dreamworld. If Vendetta couldn't detect that level of indoctrination, then Vendetta's sensors are terrible.

Either that, or Shepard's insane by himself already.

Or there Reapers there who can impose influece due to being close enough to extened there power. Anyway hallutionations is not a late stage symtom...It's an early stage one.

a) Why don't we hallucinate again in London pre-Harbinger?
This leads to the problem that a lot of Anti-ITers have. That you have to question everything you see. Hallucinations might be early stage, but I'd think the dreams would come before that?
c) Then there's no clear build-up in the level of indoctrination.

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Which one of them doesn't use the Child at the beggining and the following dream to make sense with the Indoc' Theory? Because any of them using the child are wrong based on script and art book )

None...They all use the idea that child is a hullcination.

I don't think the Earthchild is a hallucination. That would require Shepard to be hallucinating while awake.

....People can hallucinate when they are awake. That's normally when it happes.

It would imply that he's pretty heavily indoctrinated at that point if the reapers can make him see things that aren't there outside of the dreamworld. If Vendetta couldn't detect that level of indoctrination, then Vendetta's sensors are terrible.

Either that, or Shepard's insane by himself already.

Or there Reapers there who can impose influece due to being close enough to extened there power. Anyway hallutionations is not a late stage symtom...It's an early stage one.

a) Why don't we hallucinate again in London pre-Harbinger?
This leads to the problem that a lot of Anti-ITers have. That you have to question everything you see. Hallucinations might be early stage, but I'd think the dreams would come before that?
c) Then there's no clear build-up in the level of indoctrination.

1.Strong wills can resist indoctrination.....At no point is Shepard's will stronger then at priority earth.
2.Yes, but there point you can make as a ground point and perpectives out side of Shepard in the series that evenst are real.

3. There never any clear build up in indoctriantion out side of inplatation. If was clear, it would not be subtle.

[Jassu1979]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone know. It the one that stated everything is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands ou by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.)

Eh?
Honestly, none of that is what I've seen under the name "IT" so far, and none of these is very convincing.

Being hit by Harbinger is usually cited as the crucial moment when the game switches from "reality" to fighting for your mind in a dreamlike state - and that makes sense.

Interpreting the WHOLE game as a dream/hallucination would be a case of abysmal storytelling, "Dallas"-style, whereas the finale really has that slightly surreal, slightly "off" feeling.

[pistolols]

dreman9999 wrote...

Why does Shepard get every sign of indoctrination when TIM take control of him?

Because there is in fact indoctrination happening there... nobody should be questioning that.  It explains the confusing dialogue with Anderson while you're heading to the console, it explains the shadow wisps on our screen, it explains why Shepard checks himself the same spot Anderson was shot... it's just confusion from the indoctrination attempt.  But the thing is that as soon as Illusive Man dies, the indoctrination attempt is broken.  If you take the ending events with the catalyst at face value, Illusive Man was the Reapers final defense to stop Shepard and it failed.  So for me where "Indoctrination Theory" comes in is whether or not you believe the events after Tim's death are still part of indoctrination.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

What does this mean exactly? Are the surroundings real or partly real or fully fake?

[dreman9999]

Jassu1979 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone know. It the one that stated everything is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands ou by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.)

Eh?
Honestly, none of that is what I've seen under the name "IT" so far, and none of these is very convincing.

Being hit by Harbinger is usually cited as the crucial moment when the game switches from "reality" to fighting for your mind in a dreamlike state - and that makes sense.

Interpreting the WHOLE game as a dream/hallucination would be a case of abysmal storytelling, "Dallas"-style, whereas the finale really has that slightly surreal, slightly "off" feeling.

As I said before...All these theories have been stated before but are over shadow by the more popular dream theory.
They all open the possibility of each one of them being right because the reapers can use any level of indoctrination on Shepard atthis point out side of forcing actions through direct control or orders.

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

What does this mean exactly? Are the surroundings real or partly real or fully fake?

Exactly, This is the most flexible theory. Shepard can be on earth still or on the citadel.

[OdanUrr]

Opsrbest wrote...

What the ending presents really, since Sanctuary if you then proceed into the Cerberus Base and Priorty: (Retake??)Earth in both the narrative and game play  is a very confused and jumbled mess. Non of the actions and proceeding actions in those events make any form of sense. I think this is where Bioware really relied on their ability to tell a story and hope that no one noticed the empty spaces those sections leave; and how unfinished they ultimatly present the game. 

Completely agree.