505 réponses à ce sujet

[FatalX7.0]

Why can't you make up your mind?

[dreman9999]

pistolols wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Why does Shepard get every sign of indoctrination when TIM take control of him?

Because there is in fact indoctrination happening there... nobody should be questioning that.  It explains the confusing dialogue with Anderson while you're heading to the console, it explains the shadow wisps on our screen, it explains why Shepard checks himself the same spot Anderson was shot... it's just confusion from the indoctrination attempt.  But the thing is that as soon as Illusive Man dies, the indoctrination attempt is broken.  If you take the ending events with the catalyst at face value, Illusive Man was the Reapers final defense to stop Shepard and it failed.  So for me where "Indoctrination Theory" comes in is whether or not you believe the events after Tim's death are still part of indoctrination.

This is a race of Machines with a history of deception. We don't know if it stopped, the reaper could of easilly change game plans from direct control to strong mental suggestions. They may of tried the dream/hallcination attempt again and Shepard would never know.

[Jassu1979]

Here's how I interpret the game in order to make the ending more bearable via IT:

1. Shepard has been subjected to subtle reaper influence ever since being hit by object Rho.
2. The boy is a reaper-induced hallucination, either from the very start or from the moment he appears in that vent, intended to undermine and erode Shepard's confidence.
3. The dreams reinforce this motif of guilt/hopelessness/doubt - and Shepard never talks to anyone about them, even when asked - because the subtle influence is already there. She's not indoctrinated yet, as they're trying to gradually "turn" her without damaging her mental faculties.
4. Picking up reaper objects at the cerberus lab etc. contributes to the process, and at least one other member of your crew is somewhat affected as well. (Jimmy Vega: "Do you hear that hum?")
5. The fight for your mind starts in earnest when you are "hit" by Harbinger's beam, and ends with the "choice" in the end: your mind presents three options to you, two of which reflect the way two other villains/anti-heroes were warped before you: Synthesis is the "solution" with which they successfully tempted Saren, and Control is the bait that lured TIM.
Destroy, on the other hand, marks uncompromising resolve, and thus entails the possibility of escaping the Reapers' influence.


Note, I do not think this is necessarily what Bioware intended. In fact, I think many of the "clues" people see are just a case of bad writing/bad coding coupled with grasping for straws. But I do think this interpretation makes for a better ending than what we've actually got.

[dreman9999]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Why can't you make up your mind?

I can't argue more then one point?

[Baa Baa]

I like 3 best

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

What the ending presents really, since Sanctuary if you then proceed into the Cerberus Base and Priorty: (Retake??)Earth in both the narrative and game play  is a very confused and jumbled mess. Non of the actions and proceeding actions in those events make any form of sense. I think this is where Bioware really relied on their ability to tell a story and hope that no one noticed the empty spaces those sections leave; and how unfinished they ultimatly present the game. 

Completely agree.

The only time the game made no sense was after the Shepard was cut down by Harbinger. Sanctuary and the Cerberus base were fine.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

 Most peopel miss this due to the fact that one of the three are the most popular commented on.
Let's go over all 3.

1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone know. It the one that stated everything is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands ou by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.)

All these version at the  point of star child  has varied directions of results of theries of the end.
Being:
The war is not over yet. And based on the choice Shepard makes he may or may not beat indoctination

It's a selecting of whether Sharperd activated the crucble or not. In reality.

It's a choice of ending the reapers  or letting them use the crucible as they see fit.("You let them implant you? Are you insane! " Shepard...ME1)

They are all tricks to get you to kill yourself.

Reguardless of what theory is used, Shepard is in the process of indoctriation till he makes a choice.
With that, it still means we don't know whats the results of the end reguardless.
Cheers.

Brilliant, so now instead of one theory being spammed everywhere and forced on us spread like gospel in a bid to educate those of us who are too stupid to understand it... We have three.



Happy days. <_<

[dreman9999]

Baa Baa wrote...

I like 3 best

Indoctination for everyone

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 Most peopel miss this due to the fact that one of the three are the most popular commented on.
Let's go over all 3.

1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone know. It the one that stated everything is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands ou by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.)

All these version at the  point of star child  has varied directions of results of theries of the end.
Being:
The war is not over yet. And based on the choice Shepard makes he may or may not beat indoctination

It's a selecting of whether Sharperd activated the crucble or not. In reality.

It's a choice of ending the reapers  or letting them use the crucible as they see fit.("You let them implant you? Are you insane! " Shepard...ME1)

They are all tricks to get you to kill yourself.

Reguardless of what theory is used, Shepard is in the process of indoctriation till he makes a choice.
With that, it still means we don't know whats the results of the end reguardless.
Cheers.

Brilliant, so now instead of one theory being spammed everywhere and forced on us spread like gospel in a bid to educate those of us who are too stupid to understand it... We have three.



Happy days. <_<

IT is that hard to kill...Enjoy.

[Aaleel]

People should just decide on one canon version of it, or stop calling it the Indoctrination Theory and start calling it the Indoctrination Theories.

What happens post being hit by the beam is pretty much the same, so having some of the events make sense under one version and not another devalues them all IMHO. There should be one canon version that explains the events.

[dreman9999]

Aaleel wrote...

People should just decide on one canon version of it, or stop calling it the Indoctrination Theory and start calling it the Indoctrination Theories.

What happens post being hit by the beam is pretty much the same, so having some of the events make sense under one version and not another devalues them all IMHO. There should be one canon version that explains the events.

But all events all makes sense in all versions of the theory.

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

What the ending presents really, since Sanctuary if you then proceed into the Cerberus Base and Priorty: (Retake??)Earth in both the narrative and game play  is a very confused and jumbled mess. Non of the actions and proceeding actions in those events make any form of sense. I think this is where Bioware really relied on their ability to tell a story and hope that no one noticed the empty spaces those sections leave; and how unfinished they ultimatly present the game. 

Completely agree.

The only time the game made no sense was after the Shepard was cut down by Harbinger. Sanctuary and the Cerberus base were fine.

That's your take on it. I see inconsistencies all throughout the game.

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

What the ending presents really, since Sanctuary if you then proceed into the Cerberus Base and Priorty: (Retake??)Earth in both the narrative and game play  is a very confused and jumbled mess. Non of the actions and proceeding actions in those events make any form of sense. I think this is where Bioware really relied on their ability to tell a story and hope that no one noticed the empty spaces those sections leave; and how unfinished they ultimatly present the game. 

Completely agree.

The only time the game made no sense was after the Shepard was cut down by Harbinger. Sanctuary and the Cerberus base were fine.

That's your take on it. I see inconsistencies all throughout the game.

Where? Please point to the thing your nick picking about...(Don't bother, you know what direction it will go if you do.)

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 mai 2012 - 03:43 .

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 Most peopel miss this due to the fact that one of the three are the most popular commented on.
Let's go over all 3.

1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone know. It the one that stated everything is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands ou by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.)

All these version at the  point of star child  has varied directions of results of theries of the end.
Being:
The war is not over yet. And based on the choice Shepard makes he may or may not beat indoctination

It's a selecting of whether Sharperd activated the crucble or not. In reality.

It's a choice of ending the reapers  or letting them use the crucible as they see fit.("You let them implant you? Are you insane! " Shepard...ME1)

They are all tricks to get you to kill yourself.

Reguardless of what theory is used, Shepard is in the process of indoctriation till he makes a choice.
With that, it still means we don't know whats the results of the end reguardless.
Cheers.

Brilliant, so now instead of one theory being spammed everywhere and forced on us spread like gospel in a bid to educate those of us who are too stupid to understand it... We have three.



Happy days. <_<

IT is that hard to kill...Enjoy.

Just as hard as it is to prove, evidently.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 Most peopel miss this due to the fact that one of the three are the most popular commented on.
Let's go over all 3.

1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone know. It the one that stated everything is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands ou by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.)

All these version at the  point of star child  has varied directions of results of theries of the end.
Being:
The war is not over yet. And based on the choice Shepard makes he may or may not beat indoctination

It's a selecting of whether Sharperd activated the crucble or not. In reality.

It's a choice of ending the reapers  or letting them use the crucible as they see fit.("You let them implant you? Are you insane! " Shepard...ME1)

They are all tricks to get you to kill yourself.

Reguardless of what theory is used, Shepard is in the process of indoctriation till he makes a choice.
With that, it still means we don't know whats the results of the end reguardless.
Cheers.

Brilliant, so now instead of one theory being spammed everywhere and forced on us spread like gospel in a bid to educate those of us who are too stupid to understand it... We have three.



Happy days. <_<

IT is that hard to kill...Enjoy.

Just as hard as it is to prove, evidently.

You mean just checking facts and scenes in the game and codex.....That must be so hard...

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Where? Please point to the thing your nick picking about...(Don't bother, you know what direction it will go if you do.)

Nowhere productive, I'm afraid. I'll probably mention a few of them when I get around to writing my review of ME3.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

IT is that hard to kill...Enjoy.

Just as hard as it is to prove, evidently.

You mean just checking facts and scenes in the game and codex.....That must be so hard...

... Or watching the end credits and consequent "You beat the reapers" messages and official statements from the Bioware Co-Founder?


But no, whats an official statement when you have a file called dream_foliage or w/e.


And there is no such thing as fact when it comes to IT... Just speculation.

Modifié par jijeebo, 13 mai 2012 - 03:51 .

[Aaleel]

dreman9999 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

People should just decide on one canon version of it, or stop calling it the Indoctrination Theory and start calling it the Indoctrination Theories.

What happens post being hit by the beam is pretty much the same, so having some of the events make sense under one version and not another devalues them all IMHO. There should be one canon version that explains the events.

But all events all makes sense in all versions of the theory.

So Shepard actually went aboard the Citadel but ended up back on Earth under a plie of concrete slabs.  Waking up on Earth makes sense under 1 and not 3. 

Shepard is in reality but his/her armor changed, trees sprouted and grew, Shepard has unlimited ammo.  All the things people use to demonstrate a dream all of a sudden are still there in reality.  1 contradicts 3 just based on the fact that one is a dream and three is reality.

TIM man being able to kill Shepard "Critical Mission" Death makes sense if it's reality, but not if it's a dream.  The Crucible being destroyed and Shepard failing makes sense in reality, but not in a dream.

[zambot]

This is not surprising. Most religions break down into several sub groups given enough time.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

IT is that hard to kill...Enjoy.

Just as hard as it is to prove, evidently.

You mean just checking facts and scenes in the game and codex.....That must be so hard...

... Or watching the end credits and consequent "You beat the reapers" messages and official statements from the Bioware Co-Founder?


But no, whats an official statement when you have a file called dream_foliage or w/e.


And there is no such thing as fact when it comes to IT... Just speculation.

1. What EC?
2.How is TIM controling Shepard?"
3.You can take this argument  here
http://social.biowar...75/blog/212630/ 
and here
http://social.biowar.../index/11972753 
And here...
http://social.biowar.../index/11882294 
And here
http://social.biowar.../index/11529724 
.....

[dreman9999]

zambot wrote...

This is not surprising. Most religions break down into several sub groups given enough time.

As do branches of science and theories of science.

[Scimal]

jijeebo wrote...
Just as hard as it is to prove, evidently.

I'm just waiting for the meta-IT to pop up.

"Wait, all of the arguments for indoctrination are the same arguments for the existence of the Catalyst given by Vendetta - They didn't have direct evidence for the Catalyst, only evidence of its actions! That's the entire IT in a nutshell! You don't know it's happening if you play the game, but if you stop looking at the game and look all around it, clear as day! Oh dang, was that BioWare's plan all along? They created a confusing ending to spur the birth of the IT so that the forums could tear themselves apart just like the Reapers do! So in reality, BioWare is the Catalyst, which made ME3 (aka - the Reapers!), and now their fans are being indoctrinated via the Indoctrination Theory that BioWare planned all along!

GENIUS. I'M BUYING EVERY BIOWARE GAME FROM NOW ON FOREVER!"

[dreman9999]

Aaleel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

People should just decide on one canon version of it, or stop calling it the Indoctrination Theory and start calling it the Indoctrination Theories.

What happens post being hit by the beam is pretty much the same, so having some of the events make sense under one version and not another devalues them all IMHO. There should be one canon version that explains the events.

But all events all makes sense in all versions of the theory.

So Shepard actually went aboard the Citadel but ended up back on Earth under a plie of concrete slabs.  Waking up on Earth makes sense under 1 and not 3. 

Shepard is in reality but his/her armor changed, trees sprouted and grew, Shepard has unlimited ammo.  All the things people use to demonstrate a dream all of a sudden are still there in reality.  1 contradicts 3 just based on the fact that one is a dream and three is reality.

TIM man being able to kill Shepard "Critical Mission" Death makes sense if it's reality, but not if it's a dream.  The Crucible being destroyed and Shepard failing makes sense in reality, but not in a dream.

Who said they all happen at once. But regardless of that, one must use the most stable evidence to the theory....There's a documantary that goes over this.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

IT is that hard to kill...Enjoy.

Just as hard as it is to prove, evidently.

You mean just checking facts and scenes in the game and codex.....That must be so hard...

... Or watching the end credits and consequent "You beat the reapers" messages and official statements from the Bioware Co-Founder?


But no, whats an official statement when you have a file called dream_foliage or w/e.


And there is no such thing as fact when it comes to IT... Just speculation.

1. What EC?
2.How is TIM controling Shepard?"
3.You can take this argument  here
http://social.biowar...75/blog/212630/ 
and here
http://social.biowar.../index/11972753 
And here...
http://social.biowar.../index/11882294 
And here
http://social.biowar.../index/11529724 
.....

blog.bioware.com/2012/03/21/4108/

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between  the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.  This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."


IT wasn't planned... Unless they're going to release the EC and THEN indoctrinate the endings. <_<

Modifié par jijeebo, 13 mai 2012 - 04:05 .

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Which one of them doesn't use the Child at the beggining and the following dream to make sense with the Indoc' Theory? Because any of them using the child are wrong based on script and art book )

None...They all use the idea that child is a hullcination.

I don't think the Earthchild is a hallucination. That would require Shepard to be hallucinating while awake.

....People can hallucinate when they are awake. That's normally when it happes.

It would imply that he's pretty heavily indoctrinated at that point if the reapers can make him see things that aren't there outside of the dreamworld. If Vendetta couldn't detect that level of indoctrination, then Vendetta's sensors are terrible.

Either that, or Shepard's insane by himself already.

Or there Reapers there who can impose influece due to being close enough to extened there power. Anyway hallutionations is not a late stage symtom...It's an early stage one.

a) Why don't we hallucinate again in London pre-Harbinger?
This leads to the problem that a lot of Anti-ITers have. That you have to question everything you see. Hallucinations might be early stage, but I'd think the dreams would come before that?
c) Then there's no clear build-up in the level of indoctrination.

1.Strong wills can resist indoctrination.....At no point is Shepard's will stronger then at priority earth.
2.Yes, but there point you can make as a ground point and perpectives out side of Shepard in the series that evenst are real.

3. There never any clear build up in indoctriantion out side of inplatation. If was clear, it would not be subtle.

1. Really? I see the opposite. Shepard's strong willed at beginning of the game. As the game progresses he becomes weaker willed and more prone to self-doubt


3. I mean even if you look hard enough, there's no build up with your interpretation. The way I see it, Shepard's mind is strong at the beginning. He's not even really affected by the Reaper indoctrination. After the child dies, we see Shepard is haunted by it (this is in the first dream absent of those solid shadows). The Child burns. This happens soon after Earth, where Shepard was not far from a bunch of reapers. No problem if indoctrination hadn't started, but not so for Shepard.

The 2nd dream is noticeably darker (why? who died on Tuchanka? This isn't just grief for the dead) has those whispering shadows, the burning child. It's there to make Shepard doubt himself. As Beneziah said, self-doubt helps indoctrination. Again, Shepard sees the child burn. This happens after Shepard gets fairly close to the Tuchanka Reaper (certainly closer than is the  norm). To me, this is an indicator of  how much the Reaper influence has grown.

The 3rd dream takes place after Thessia and is overrun with the talking shades. He also starts hearing the voices of his dead friends (why now? they've been dead for a long time). Shepard also watches himself and the Child burning together. Pretty damn creepy. After Thessia, and Kai Leng's email (bragging about a fight in which he needed a shuttle to win, as well as multiple shield recharges) Shepard's the most stressed he's ever been (ask Joker) and is beginning to doubt himself more than ever. This allows the reaper taint to spread further, and the dream serves to undermine his confidence even more.

The 4th dream takes place after Harbinger blasts Shepard near to death. His mental barriers are down because of this, and the reaper taint takes the opportunity to make a play for Shepard's mind. This dream is better constructed (more convincing, showing again how much stronger the reaper taint has become, but the details are still not quite right) and is meant to actually convince Shepard against destroying the Reapers. By REJECTING destruction in favour of other options, he makes an unfortunate transition.

There you go. An observable escalation to those who look.

2) What basis do you have for the child not being real. Why create an imaginary child for Shepard to see die, when there are probably other REAL kids who are going to die in that invasion. My interpretation involves a clear point of transition. The details after Harbinger's blast knocks Shepard unconscious are off. I see the point of transition being Shepard unconscious. I deduce that Shepard is still unconscious.


But then, this interpretation I got myself, after looking at the relevant gameplay videos when I wasn't convinced by the popular indoctrination videos (although I still preferred it to to the face value endings)

Modifié par KingZayd, 13 mai 2012 - 04:13 .