461 réponses à ce sujet

[garrusfan1]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

I'd hand it to the implants TIM used to enhance Shepard when rebuilding him/her, if BW are going with IT. After all, exact details of the implants are unknown and could involve reaper tech, and other "strong willed" characters like Saren and TIM himself are indoctrinated slowly in the same way.

EDIT: Poor wording

That'd be a complete abuse of their position as the writer's, though. I mean, they're going back and shaping the plot just to implement and idea they failed to properly form in the first place or to squeeze a new one (that they didn't come up with). It's shameful.

True, but what is the alternative?
I wouldn't say I'll be fully contended because the damage is already done, but I'd say it is the most smooth way out for them.

miranda would know and judging by the mind control chip conversation I would say she would mention reaper tech and kai leng says they didn`t give you any upgrades guess you weren`t worth the effort

[BatmanTurian]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

The theory for the Citadel indoctrination is that it's passive and pacifies the populace within. This accounts for the Council being constantly skeptical about the Reapers and the people on the Citadel seeming to be less affected by the war. It would also make it easy for the Reapers to swarm in on a dime, like they did in the cycles before the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, and take over.

That could make sense, I guess, however, but why didn't the Reapers just build the Citadel as a giant indoctrination device in the first place?

Because they want galactic civilization to flourish before cutting it down. If the Citadel was constantly, hard-core indoctrinating, the inhabitants would become gibbering, violent idiots, like husks except alive.

If the Citadel did pacify, though, why can you fight through it to the tower in ME1? Sovvie's in charge the whole time, so it's reasonable to assume that he could cause it to pacify you, is it not?

It's low-level, so it's probably easy to break and barely noticable. Again, this is just a hypothesis to explain the Council acting like morons concerning the Reapers and everyone on the Citadel being in denial. Also, James' " everything is calm but it's not right" comment.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 13 mai 2012 - 11:04 .

[KDD-0063]

garrusfan1 wrote...

in arival they have him knocked out and could be doing anything to have indoctrination take that is where I always thought it would happen since it was two days unconsisous next to a reaper artifact

Arrival doesn't necessarily happen for Shepard.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

I'd hand it to the implants TIM used to enhance Shepard when rebuilding him/her, if BW are going with IT. After all, exact details of the implants are unknown and could involve reaper tech, and other "strong willed" characters like Saren and TIM himself are indoctrinated slowly in the same way.

EDIT: Poor wording

That'd be a complete abuse of their position as the writer's, though. I mean, they're going back and shaping the plot just to implement and idea they failed to properly form in the first place or to squeeze a new one (that they didn't come up with). It's shameful.

True, but what is the alternative?
I wouldn't say I'll be fully contended because the damage is already done, but I'd say it is the most smooth way out for them.

Well, it'd certainly be one of the laziest ways out...
It's just sad that they'd do that instead of actually trying to write better endings or improve the one they have.

[Sisterofshane]

Agugaboo wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

The theory for the Citadel indoctrination is that it's passive and pacifies the populace within. This accounts for the Council being constantly skeptical about the Reapers and the people on the Citadel seeming to be less affected by the war. It would also make it easy for the Reapers to swarm in on a dime, like they did in the cycles before the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, and take over.

That could make sense, I guess, however, it still doesn't answer the question why the Reapers didn't just build the Citadel as a giant indoctrination device in the first place.

Full on indoctrination turns sentient beings into mindless husks which would be unlikely to fill the galaxy with yummy organics worthy of ascension.

Basically the reapers are crunchy. They need to know their chicken has had a good life and learned self-reliance before they eat it.

That was a joke.

edit: ninjad by batman

Actually, I think that should say "RAPID INDOCTRINATION" turns people into mindless husks.  I don't believe that there are different levels of indoctrination (or so to say, that one person is more indoctrinated than another).

I think it is the fast implementation of the psychological conditioning that pretty much destroys higher reasoning capabilites.  For these to remain intact, slow and steady wins the race.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

KDD-0063 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

in arival they have him knocked out and could be doing anything to have indoctrination take that is where I always thought it would happen since it was two days unconsisous next to a reaper artifact

Arrival doesn't necessarily happen for Shepard.

I don't know why people keep missing this. It's in, what, the second paragraph?

[Sodapop VII]

There is more pointless conjecture in this thread that a lot of ending theories. For all anyone knows... harbinger has special indoctrination potential, and uses it on Shepard when it lands extremely close by.

[Agugaboo]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Agugaboo wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

The theory for the Citadel indoctrination is that it's passive and pacifies the populace within. This accounts for the Council being constantly skeptical about the Reapers and the people on the Citadel seeming to be less affected by the war. It would also make it easy for the Reapers to swarm in on a dime, like they did in the cycles before the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, and take over.

That could make sense, I guess, however, it still doesn't answer the question why the Reapers didn't just build the Citadel as a giant indoctrination device in the first place.

Full on indoctrination turns sentient beings into mindless husks which would be unlikely to fill the galaxy with yummy organics worthy of ascension.

Basically the reapers are crunchy. They need to know their chicken has had a good life and learned self-reliance before they eat it.

That was a joke.

edit: ninjad by batman

Actually, I think that should say "RAPID INDOCTRINATION" turns people into mindless husks.  I don't believe that there are different levels of indoctrination (or so to say, that one person is more indoctrinated than another).

I think it is the fast implementation of the psychological conditioning that pretty much destroys higher reasoning capabilites.  For these to remain intact, slow and steady wins the race.

Yes. I actually think your right and tend to believe the Citadel isn't doing anything but providing a misplaced sense of security and control, rather than actually using indoc.

[balance5050]

KDD-0063 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

in arival they have him knocked out and could be doing anything to have indoctrination take that is where I always thought it would happen since it was two days unconsisous next to a reaper artifact

Arrival doesn't necessarily happen for Shepard.

It did for my Shepard, I guess mine just did more bad-assery than others.

[Wulfram]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Actually, I think that should say "RAPID INDOCTRINATION" turns people into mindless husks.  I don't believe that there are different levels of indoctrination (or so to say, that one person is more indoctrinated than another).

I think it is the fast implementation of the psychological conditioning that pretty much destroys higher reasoning capabilites.  For these to remain intact, slow and steady wins the race.

Saren and Rana Thanoptis disagreed.  They believed that less freedom = less competence.  

Of course, they were indoctrinated...

[KDD-0063]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

I'd hand it to the implants TIM used to enhance Shepard when rebuilding him/her, if BW are going with IT. After all, exact details of the implants are unknown and could involve reaper tech, and other "strong willed" characters like Saren and TIM himself are indoctrinated slowly in the same way.

EDIT: Poor wording

That'd be a complete abuse of their position as the writer's, though. I mean, they're going back and shaping the plot just to implement and idea they failed to properly form in the first place or to squeeze a new one (that they didn't come up with). It's shameful.

True, but what is the alternative?
I wouldn't say I'll be fully contended because the damage is already done, but I'd say it is the most smooth way out for them.

Well, it'd certainly be one of the laziest ways out...
It's just sad that they'd do that instead of actually trying to write better endings or improve the one they have.

Writing better endings has to happen before release; for this part the damage is already done.

Improving the current endings with the god child, space magic and real MacGuffin intact? That will be extremely hard because those things are what people hate about the ending.

For me as a player, if the choice is IT or space magic, I'll take IT any day because space magic is far worse.

Though I admit that after all the drama and PR crap, I would rather see them just man up, throw the current ending out of the airlock and give us a new one. Admit they are wrong instead of going with an easy way out. It would probably be better for them too.

[garrusfan1]

KDD-0063 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

in arival they have him knocked out and could be doing anything to have indoctrination take that is where I always thought it would happen since it was two days unconsisous next to a reaper artifact

Arrival doesn't necessarily happen for Shepard.

even if you didn`t play it it happened and I would guess the same way

[Zombie Inc 91]

Wulfram wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Actually, I think that should say "RAPID INDOCTRINATION" turns people into mindless husks.  I don't believe that there are different levels of indoctrination (or so to say, that one person is more indoctrinated than another).

I think it is the fast implementation of the psychological conditioning that pretty much destroys higher reasoning capabilites.  For these to remain intact, slow and steady wins the race.

Saren and Rana Thanoptis disagreed.  They believed that less freedom = less competence.  

Of course, they were indoctrinated...

It would make sense that they want them to have some freedom. I'm sure the reapers have better things to do than manually pilot every indoctrinated person manualy. Better to get them on their side and leave them to it.

The codex does say that eventually they'll all lose the ability to do anything for themselves. Just that the less they try to force on them, the slower it is and the longer they can get some use out of them. Saren and TIM had been controlled for months/years and might have had a lot left in them. Sooner or later though, they'd be too broken help and would have been harvested/huskified/left to rot.

[garrusfan1]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

I'd hand it to the implants TIM used to enhance Shepard when rebuilding him/her, if BW are going with IT. After all, exact details of the implants are unknown and could involve reaper tech, and other "strong willed" characters like Saren and TIM himself are indoctrinated slowly in the same way.

EDIT: Poor wording

That'd be a complete abuse of their position as the writer's, though. I mean, they're going back and shaping the plot just to implement and idea they failed to properly form in the first place or to squeeze a new one (that they didn't come up with). It's shameful.

True, but what is the alternative?
I wouldn't say I'll be fully contended because the damage is already done, but I'd say it is the most smooth way out for them.

Well, it'd certainly be one of the laziest ways out...
It's just sad that they'd do that instead of actually trying to write better endings or improve the one they have.

Writing better endings has to happen before release; for this part the damage is already done.

Improving the current endings with the god child, space magic and real MacGuffin intact? That will be extremely hard because those things are what people hate about the ending.

For me as a player, if the choice is IT or space magic, I'll take IT any day because space magic is far worse.

Though I admit that after all the drama and PR crap, I would rather see them just man up, throw the current ending out of the airlock and give us a new one. Admit they are wrong instead of going with an easy way out. It would probably be better for them too.

IT would be the best choice I think but the holo kid might be semi decent if it actually made sense and gave a little bit of option which I know they said they won`t change the ending but they aren`t exactly my most trusted source

[hoodaticus]

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

We had this same argument last night *facepalm* 

It is only canon in games were it was done. There and many, many Shepards that did not do Arrival and Hackett sent someone else to do it.

This means it cannot be used as a valid argument for IT because not every Shepard did it.

Hey as long as it's canon for me the theory works....

Yes, by making that their main line of attack, they've conceded the truth of IT for everyone who either read the comics or played Arrival.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 13 mai 2012 - 11:26 .

[balance5050]

hoodaticus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

We had this same argument last night *facepalm* 

It is only canon in games were it was done. There and many, many Shepards that did not do Arrival and Hackett sent someone else to do it.

This means it cannot be used as a valid argument for IT because not every Shepard did it.

Hey as long as it's canon for me the theory works....

Yes, by making that their main line of attack, they've conceded the truth of IT for everyone who either read the comics or played Arrival.

It's kind of interesting that a sinlge peice of DLC can change people's perception though huh?

[KDD-0063]

balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

We had this same argument last night *facepalm* 

It is only canon in games were it was done. There and many, many Shepards that did not do Arrival and Hackett sent someone else to do it.

This means it cannot be used as a valid argument for IT because not every Shepard did it.

Hey as long as it's canon for me the theory works....

Yes, by making that their main line of attack, they've conceded the truth of IT for everyone who either read the comics or played Arrival.

It's kind of interesting that a sinlge peice of DLC can change people's perception though huh?

Anyway, there's still plenty of ways to 'increase' the time of contact with reaper tech.
They could also argue that between ME1 and ME2 when fighting the remaining geth force, Shepard also contacted some reaper tech.

It's just that anything is possible with EC.

[garrusfan1]

KDD-0063 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

We had this same argument last night *facepalm* 

It is only canon in games were it was done. There and many, many Shepards that did not do Arrival and Hackett sent someone else to do it.

This means it cannot be used as a valid argument for IT because not every Shepard did it.

Hey as long as it's canon for me the theory works....

Yes, by making that their main line of attack, they've conceded the truth of IT for everyone who either read the comics or played Arrival.

It's kind of interesting that a sinlge peice of DLC can change people's perception though huh?

Anyway, there's still plenty of ways to 'increase' the time of contact with reaper tech.
They could also argue that between ME1 and ME2 when fighting the remaining geth force, Shepard also contacted some reaper tech.

It's just that anything is possible with EC.

arrival is where it happened I think you were near a reaper object that knocked you out and then you woke up like 2 days later noone says what happened

[balance5050]

garrusfan1 wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

We had this same argument last night *facepalm* 

It is only canon in games were it was done. There and many, many Shepards that did not do Arrival and Hackett sent someone else to do it.

This means it cannot be used as a valid argument for IT because not every Shepard did it.

Hey as long as it's canon for me the theory works....

Yes, by making that their main line of attack, they've conceded the truth of IT for everyone who either read the comics or played Arrival.

It's kind of interesting that a sinlge peice of DLC can change people's perception though huh?

Anyway, there's still plenty of ways to 'increase' the time of contact with reaper tech.
They could also argue that between ME1 and ME2 when fighting the remaining geth force, Shepard also contacted some reaper tech.

It's just that anything is possible with EC.

arrival is where it happened I think you were near a reaper object that knocked you out and then you woke up like 2 days later noone says what happened

Reaper molestation probably.

[111987]

Sisterofshane wrote...


Rana Thonoptis is another great example of this.  When we meet her in ME1, she has been exposed to all of the tech of indoctrination, but has not been indoctrinated.  It takes YEARS after the intial exposure for her mental capacities to become worn down enough that she begins to accept the Reaper doctrine as her own.  The moment she accepted that she needed to blow up those Asari officials was probably around the same time she had been actually indoctrinated

Isn't it more likely that Rana was just a sleeper agent for the Reapers and was actually indoctrinated since Virmire?

[balance5050]

111987 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...


Rana Thonoptis is another great example of this.  When we meet her in ME1, she has been exposed to all of the tech of indoctrination, but has not been indoctrinated.  It takes YEARS after the intial exposure for her mental capacities to become worn down enough that she begins to accept the Reaper doctrine as her own.  The moment she accepted that she needed to blow up those Asari officials was probably around the same time she had been actually indoctrinated

Isn't it more likely that Rana was just a sleeper agent for the Reapers and was actually indoctrinated since Virmire?

More like the reapers didn't impose control until the right time, I doubt she was actually aware that she was going to kill the Asari officials until it was too late.

[111987]

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...


Rana Thonoptis is another great example of this.  When we meet her in ME1, she has been exposed to all of the tech of indoctrination, but has not been indoctrinated.  It takes YEARS after the intial exposure for her mental capacities to become worn down enough that she begins to accept the Reaper doctrine as her own.  The moment she accepted that she needed to blow up those Asari officials was probably around the same time she had been actually indoctrinated

Isn't it more likely that Rana was just a sleeper agent for the Reapers and was actually indoctrinated since Virmire?

More like the reapers didn't impose control until the right time, I doubt she was actually aware that she was going to kill the Asari officials until it was too late.

That's kind of what I'm saying. She was indoctrinated all along but they basically left her alone until she was in a good position to wreak havoc.

[balance5050]

111987 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...


Rana Thonoptis is another great example of this.  When we meet her in ME1, she has been exposed to all of the tech of indoctrination, but has not been indoctrinated.  It takes YEARS after the intial exposure for her mental capacities to become worn down enough that she begins to accept the Reaper doctrine as her own.  The moment she accepted that she needed to blow up those Asari officials was probably around the same time she had been actually indoctrinated

Isn't it more likely that Rana was just a sleeper agent for the Reapers and was actually indoctrinated since Virmire?

More like the reapers didn't impose control until the right time, I doubt she was actually aware that she was going to kill the Asari officials until it was too late.

That's kind of what I'm saying. She was indoctrinated all along but they basically left her alone until she was in a good position to wreak havoc.

Yay. We both agree on this.

*highfive*

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

KDD-0063 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

We had this same argument last night *facepalm* 

It is only canon in games were it was done. There and many, many Shepards that did not do Arrival and Hackett sent someone else to do it.

This means it cannot be used as a valid argument for IT because not every Shepard did it.

Hey as long as it's canon for me the theory works....

Yes, by making that their main line of attack, they've conceded the truth of IT for everyone who either read the comics or played Arrival.

It's kind of interesting that a sinlge peice of DLC can change people's perception though huh?

Anyway, there's still plenty of ways to 'increase' the time of contact with reaper tech.
They could also argue that between ME1 and ME2 when fighting the remaining geth force, Shepard also contacted some reaper tech.

It's just that anything is possible with EC.

It's kind of scary, isn't it? Honestly, I think the only way I'd love the implementation of I.T. is if Shep is indoctrinated or killed regardless and you just see scenes of every one dying. The amount of IDGAF in that kind of ending would be so mind-numbingly bold, so baller, that I would laugh my ass off, wipe the tears from my eyes, stand up, and clap until my hands are worn raw.

And that is my dream ending.

[BatmanTurian]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

We had this same argument last night *facepalm* 

It is only canon in games were it was done. There and many, many Shepards that did not do Arrival and Hackett sent someone else to do it.

This means it cannot be used as a valid argument for IT because not every Shepard did it.

Hey as long as it's canon for me the theory works....

Yes, by making that their main line of attack, they've conceded the truth of IT for everyone who either read the comics or played Arrival.

It's kind of interesting that a sinlge peice of DLC can change people's perception though huh?

Anyway, there's still plenty of ways to 'increase' the time of contact with reaper tech.
They could also argue that between ME1 and ME2 when fighting the remaining geth force, Shepard also contacted some reaper tech.

It's just that anything is possible with EC.

It's kind of scary, isn't it? Honestly, I think the only way I'd love the implementation of I.T. is if Shep is indoctrinated or killed regardless and you just see scenes of every one dying. The amount of IDGAF in that kind of ending would be so mind-numbingly bold, so baller, that I would laugh my ass off, wipe the tears from my eyes, stand up, and clap until my hands are worn raw.

And that is my dream ending.

The rage that would induce would be absofreakinglutely delicious.