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The canon (minimum) amount of time Shepard has been exposed to Reaper tech


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#276
balance5050

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Yeah, it's still all speculation. It seems to me the root of this thread comes from the notion that Shepard hasn't been around Reaper tech long enough to be indoctrinated, but it says right in the codesx that Reapers can control the speed of indoctrination at the cost of the thralls capabilites:

"Rapid incoctrination is possible but causes the Decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrinatioin lasts for months or years."

So what we need to say is that Shepard has been close to the Reapers long enough for indoctrination, at least since the beginning of ME3. The Reapers invaded Earth and were in just about every Galaxy you visit after just a couple acts. If Harbinger was able to "assume control" of the Collectors even in the middle of the Galaxy, then we can assume that vicinty isn't THAT much of a factor, however.

Now we need to find out how long ME 3 took in canon, my idea is that  we look at the ANN reports and look at the dates and try to truly find out, how long the war with the Reapers is lasting.

ANN is canon and is officially Bioware. If you guys want to get nitpicky about it.... let's get nitpicky.

Modifié par balance5050, 14 mai 2012 - 02:16 .


#277
balance5050

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@AllianceNewsNet
Khar'Shan communication gone dark. Batarian economy cut off from colonies. Hegemony: "Comm buoy disruption due to solar output."

-This is when The Arrival happened, it was on the 27th of FEBRUARY

AllianceNewsNetwork ‏ @AllianceNewsNet
Batarians Blame Alliance #AllianceNewsHeadline

- February 29th

#278
balance5050

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 LOL!  5th of March is when the Reaper's arrive no doubt. So it look's like we're at just over two month's now since the ANN news feed is still going. So everyday that goes by.... Shepard is becoming more and more indoctrinated..... Whoa.:blink:

https://twitter.com/#!/AllianceNewsNet 

Modifié par balance5050, 14 mai 2012 - 02:31 .


#279
soulprovider

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If I remember correctly signals are not enough, the indoctrination effect has ot put the subject on edge at all times and a slow patient indoctrination can take weeks., Benezia states that sovereign is shaped so that you have the feeling of someone watching you at all times which stresses the individual out, and even if you were to fight the indoctrination it would take much more to fight it than the individual alone for a long time. Shiala is an example of being altered in such a way by the thorian that she could feel the colonists, and through her love for them she was able to fight the reapers and their whispers. Key point she could feel the reapers calling out to her, Besides I don't think shepards in doctrinated if anything my theory fall in liara being indoctrinated, shes shepards closest adviser and even as a friend is trying to do everything she can to get close to shepard and to get him to let his guard down, and in ME2 she becomes the second best information source in the universe until she takes over the shadow broker slot. I still want to know how cerberus found the shadow broker lair. And why she turned shepards body over to cerberus. Either these were really good retconns or there is something more sinister in that plot line there. Maybe liara was being manipulated like the thorian manipulating the thralls, conditioned to do the reapers will while being allows some moniker of freedom.

#280
jijeebo

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soulprovider wrote...

If I remember correctly signals are not enough, the indoctrination effect has ot put the subject on edge at all times and a slow patient indoctrination can take weeks., Benezia states that sovereign is shaped so that you have the feeling of someone watching you at all times which stresses the individual out, and even if you were to fight the indoctrination it would take much more to fight it than the individual alone for a long time. Shiala is an example of being altered in such a way by the thorian that she could feel the colonists, and through her love for them she was able to fight the reapers and their whispers. Key point she could feel the reapers calling out to her, Besides I don't think shepards in doctrinated if anything my theory fall in liara being indoctrinated, shes shepards closest adviser and even as a friend is trying to do everything she can to get close to shepard and to get him to let his guard down, and in ME2 she becomes the second best information source in the universe until she takes over the shadow broker slot. I still want to know how cerberus found the shadow broker lair. And why she turned shepards body over to cerberus. Either these were really good retconns or there is something more sinister in that plot line there. Maybe liara was being manipulated like the thorian manipulating the thralls, conditioned to do the reapers will while being allows some moniker of freedom.


Ha interesting theory there, although I'd be concerned that if they revealed that Liara was indoctrinated the universe might implode. :P

#281
soulprovider

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jijeebo wrote...

soulprovider wrote...

If I remember correctly signals are not enough, the indoctrination effect has ot put the subject on edge at all times and a slow patient indoctrination can take weeks., Benezia states that sovereign is shaped so that you have the feeling of someone watching you at all times which stresses the individual out, and even if you were to fight the indoctrination it would take much more to fight it than the individual alone for a long time. Shiala is an example of being altered in such a way by the thorian that she could feel the colonists, and through her love for them she was able to fight the reapers and their whispers. Key point she could feel the reapers calling out to her, Besides I don't think shepards in doctrinated if anything my theory fall in liara being indoctrinated, shes shepards closest adviser and even as a friend is trying to do everything she can to get close to shepard and to get him to let his guard down, and in ME2 she becomes the second best information source in the universe until she takes over the shadow broker slot. I still want to know how cerberus found the shadow broker lair. And why she turned shepards body over to cerberus. Either these were really good retconns or there is something more sinister in that plot line there. Maybe liara was being manipulated like the thorian manipulating the thralls, conditioned to do the reapers will while being allows some moniker of freedom.


Ha interesting theory there, although I'd be concerned that if they revealed that Liara was indoctrinated the universe might implode. :P


yea but it makes a lot of sense, because she was in therum trapped with the geth the whole time whose to say that she wasn't being indoctrinated in that mine, rather odd that a prothean scientist would trigger a security door only to be trapped by that very security measure and not shepard when he enters the mine.... and since we learn that prothean tech can detect indoctrination maybe just maybe it trapped liara because she was indoctrinated.

Also throughout the ME series shes the only characters to experience the canon symptoms and to have a radical change in behavior.

Modifié par soulprovider, 14 mai 2012 - 02:52 .


#282
Geomon19

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I love how people just throw away things to fit their arguments. "Well I didn't play Arrival or any side missions."

Well if we're just going to make s**t up then I'm just going to assume that even though I played Arrival and did all the side missions and danced to Thriller with the human Reaper, I'm still not indoctrinated because TIM stuck an anti indoctrination rod into my penis rendering me completely safe and sexy. So there.

Modifié par Geomon19, 14 mai 2012 - 03:06 .


#283
jijeebo

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Geomon19 wrote...

I love how people just throw away things to fit their arguments. "Well I didn't play Arrival or any side missions."

Well if we're just going to make s**t up then I'm just going to assume that even though I played Arrival and did all the side missions and danced to Thriller with the human Reaper, I'm still not indoctrinated because TIM stuck an anti indoctrination rod into my penis rendering me completely safe and sexy. So there.


For IT to be valid it would have to apply to ALL Shepards, including those who just ran through all three games, or started at ME3.


This thread counts up all the contact that you cannot avoid to see if it would be realistic. It only dismisses contact that isn't compulsory because the IT would have to do the same.


Nobody is just making s**t up, although your imagination is impressive. :D

#284
Asharad Hett

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So how long was TIM exposed to indoctrination?

#285
balance5050

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jijeebo wrote...

Geomon19 wrote...

I love how people just throw away things to fit their arguments. "Well I didn't play Arrival or any side missions."

Well if we're just going to make s**t up then I'm just going to assume that even though I played Arrival and did all the side missions and danced to Thriller with the human Reaper, I'm still not indoctrinated because TIM stuck an anti indoctrination rod into my penis rendering me completely safe and sexy. So there.


For IT to be valid it would have to apply to ALL Shepards, including those who just ran through all three games, or started at ME3.


This thread counts up all the contact that you cannot avoid to see if it would be realistic. It only dismisses contact that isn't compulsory because the IT would have to do the same.


Nobody is just making s**t up, although your imagination is impressive. :D


You seriously have no idea what you are talking about:

"For IT to be valid it would have to apply to ALL Shepards"


NO IT DOESN'T, THATS THE F***ING POINT. EVERYONE'S SHEPARD IS DIFFERENT AND DIFFERENT PEOPLE WERE MEANT TO DERIVE DIFFERENT THINGS.

If I were you I would quit while you're ahead.^_^

Modifié par balance5050, 14 mai 2012 - 03:20 .


#286
jijeebo

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balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Geomon19 wrote...

I love how people just throw away things to fit their arguments. "Well I didn't play Arrival or any side missions."

Well if we're just going to make s**t up then I'm just going to assume that even though I played Arrival and did all the side missions and danced to Thriller with the human Reaper, I'm still not indoctrinated because TIM stuck an anti indoctrination rod into my penis rendering me completely safe and sexy. So there.


For IT to be valid it would have to apply to ALL Shepards, including those who just ran through all three games, or started at ME3.


This thread counts up all the contact that you cannot avoid to see if it would be realistic. It only dismisses contact that isn't compulsory because the IT would have to do the same.


Nobody is just making s**t up, although your imagination is impressive. :D


You seriously have no idea what you are talking about:

"For IT to be valid it would have to apply to ALL Shepards"


NO IT DOESN'T, THATS THE F***ING POINT. EVERYONE'S SHEPARD IS DIFFERENT AND DIFFERENT PEOPLE WERE MEANT TO DERIVE DIFFERENT THINGS.

If I were you I would quit while you're ahead.^_^



I'm sorry, am I allowed to have an opinion or are you going to dog me in EVERY post I make?

If they make IT canon with EC, it will need to apply to every Shepard. It's common sense really.

#287
Elyiia

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Man, some of the posts in here really make me facepalm.

Arrival happened in every timeline, but it's not Shepard who is in the situation in every timeline.
Secondly, why the hell would the Reaper IFF indoctrinate? Or the Collector's base? Or the Collector's ship? None of these are intended for free organics to even be close to. Claiming these indoctrinate is such a leap in logic.

#288
Generic Screen Name

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Not everything that's loosely associated with the Reapers indoctrinates people.

#289
Sisterofshane

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Asharad Hett wrote...

So how long was TIM exposed to indoctrination?


Lol, want my short answer?  Before ME3, he wasn't.

The device he encountered on Shanxi was meant to huskify the individuals who found it.  Ben was going through that process (he bore the brunt of the zap, and I think that Jack AKA TIM absorbed  a part of it from him, slowing down the process, but also exposing him to reaper tech).

I don't think TIM was indoctrinated until he learned from Henry Lawson that he could control Reaper Forces, and override Reaper control signals.  He then foolishly believed that he could supplant himself with Reaper Tech with out fear of indoctrination, and he was wrong.

#290
Asharad Hett

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Yeah, I'd like the short answer. What is the canon (minimum) amount of time for TIM?

#291
vinwarrior

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When being rebuilt in the Cerberus Base he could have been exposed to 2 years worth of Reaper Tech, Arrival Shepard was knocked out and was exposed to many Prothean Beacons.

#292
111987

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Asharad Hett wrote...

Yeah, I'd like the short answer. What is the canon (minimum) amount of time for TIM?


Because he implanted himself, it means the Reapers could take control fairly quickly. Within a few hours/days. That's all the exposure needed.

#293
111987

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vinwarrior wrote...

When being rebuilt in the Cerberus Base he could have been exposed to 2 years worth of Reaper Tech, Arrival Shepard was knocked out and was exposed to many Prothean Beacons.


Prothean=/=Reaper.

#294
jijeebo

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Asharad Hett wrote...

Yeah, I'd like the short answer. What is the canon (minimum) amount of time for TIM?


I'd quite like to know this as well.

Although I fear it would be nearly impossible to accurately make any sort of estimate, considering how much time TIM spends off-screen during the story. :pinched:

#295
Elyiia

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vinwarrior wrote...

When being rebuilt in the Cerberus Base he could have been exposed to 2 years worth of Reaper Tech, Arrival Shepard was knocked out and was exposed to many Prothean Beacons.


He could have been, but he wasn't.

Arrival isn't canon.

#296
Sisterofshane

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vinwarrior wrote...

When being rebuilt in the Cerberus Base he could have been exposed to 2 years worth of Reaper Tech, Arrival Shepard was knocked out and was exposed to many Prothean Beacons.


Mm, I doubt that Miranda or anyone else there would have been capable of being surrounded by Reaper Tech for that long without succumbing to Indoctrination - it only took a few short weeks for the entire team on the Derelict Reaper to become indoctrinated, two years would be too long to risk anyone's exposure to.

I also doubt that any Reaper "tech" was used to reconstruct Shepard - if you listen to Miranda's logs on Project Lazarus she makes a clear point of saying that they waited as long as possible before using any kind of cybernetic/other implants in the reconstruction.  They were fully capable of finsihing the prjoct without them, but she made the executive decision to "speed up" the process with technology.  Also, the part that would really matter for Indoctrination (the Brain), was left exclusively untouched by any tech - they make sure to point this out to us on Cronos Station.

And the Prothean Beacons had nothing to do with the Reapers - it was technology developed to be used in tandem with their abilities to share information through touch.  In fact, I believe the reason why Sovereign needed Saren in the first place was because it was incapable of accessing the information stored on the Beacon directly - the Prothean VI Vigil said it was never anticipated that an indoctrinated Organic Reaper agent would be capable of gleaning the information for the Reapers.

#297
balance5050

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Sisterofshane wrote...

vinwarrior wrote...

When being rebuilt in the Cerberus Base he could have been exposed to 2 years worth of Reaper Tech, Arrival Shepard was knocked out and was exposed to many Prothean Beacons.


Mm, I doubt that Miranda or anyone else there would have been capable of being surrounded by Reaper Tech for that long without succumbing to Indoctrination - it only took a few short weeks for the entire team on the Derelict Reaper to become indoctrinated, two years would be too long to risk anyone's exposure to.

I also doubt that any Reaper "tech" was used to reconstruct Shepard - if you listen to Miranda's logs on Project Lazarus she makes a clear point of saying that they waited as long as possible before using any kind of cybernetic/other implants in the reconstruction.  They were fully capable of finsihing the prjoct without them, but she made the executive decision to "speed up" the process with technology.  Also, the part that would really matter for Indoctrination (the Brain), was left exclusively untouched by any tech - they make sure to point this out to us on Cronos Station.

And the Prothean Beacons had nothing to do with the Reapers - it was technology developed to be used in tandem with their abilities to share information through touch.  In fact, I believe the reason why Sovereign needed Saren in the first place was because it was incapable of accessing the information stored on the Beacon directly - the Prothean VI Vigil said it was never anticipated that an indoctrinated Organic Reaper agent would be capable of gleaning the information for the Reapers.


Cerberus gathered the remains of Soverign.... I don't know where they keep that tech, but I'll be dammed if they didn't use it.

Modifié par balance5050, 14 mai 2012 - 04:02 .


#298
blooregard

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click my sig I think I've already covered this.

#299
Sisterofshane

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balance5050 wrote...


Cerberus gathered the remains of Soverign.... I don't know where they keep that tech, but I'll be dammed if they didn't use it.


Like the Turians and Thannix cannons, right?  But you don't see a bunch of indoctrinated Turians running around in the game.

The best explainable answer is that what they did manage to "salvage", they used to create EDI's quantum bluebox, which turned her from a VI into an AI.

#300
Auralius Carolus

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jijeebo wrote...

Geomon19 wrote...

I love how people just throw away things to fit their arguments. "Well I didn't play Arrival or any side missions."

Well if we're just going to make s**t up then I'm just going to assume that even though I played Arrival and did all the side missions and danced to Thriller with the human Reaper, I'm still not indoctrinated because TIM stuck an anti indoctrination rod into my penis rendering me completely safe and sexy. So there.


For IT to be valid it would have to apply to ALL Shepards, including those who just ran through all three games, or started at ME3.


This thread counts up all the contact that you cannot avoid to see if it would be realistic. It only dismisses contact that isn't compulsory because the IT would have to do the same.


Nobody is just making s**t up, although your imagination is impressive. :D


Let us approach this as the developers would, shall we? I'll use both logic and existing game design/lore to demonstrate my points.

#1. The length of the Mass Effect series, as canon, extends through all of the extended lore and DLC. Regardless of what any given player chooses, certain events and characters still exist/progress a given way. For example, The Illusive Man and Kai Leng exist primarily in the extended lore, however both become characters in the games and both MUST die in order for Shepard's story to progress. Likewise, there will always be a Geth/Quarian War, a Genophage cure, (although not always utilized), a Rachni Queen, etc. The specifics may vary, but the core elements remain largely intact.

#2. Substitution, not exclusion, is Bioware's keystone method of progressing the lore in Mass Effect 3. There are over a dozen different characters that can die as a result of Shepard's actions/inactions and in the event that one is missing, another is there to take its place. All corresponding events will still occur as well, (i.e., Kirrahe will distract Kai on the Citadel if Thane dies in ME2, Alliance Special Forces will distroy the Alpha Relay for you, etc.). Therefore, if a critical event resulting in Shepard's indoctrination were to occur in DLC, the core of the lore, (the state of indoctrination), would not change simply because a given player didn't play "Arrival"; the specifics would be substituted in order to satisfy the base narrative.

#3. It is a misunderstanding that extensive exposure to a Reaper/Reaper Tech is required for indoctrination. Much like contracting a virus, all that is required is brief, albeit unfortunate, contact. As is revealed in the books, comics and certain parts of ME2/ME3, the Reapers use nanites to manipulate biologicals. These tiny robots can implant, indoctrinate and process biological entities, as well as respond dynamically to remote Reaper orders and act as communication devices between Reapers and minions.

#4. The single defining encounter with Reaper tech, for Shepard, was at Object Rho. As demonstrated with The Illusive Man, a lone powerful burst of energy can begin indoctrination, presumably through nanite implantation. The implants slowly built up by the nanites would then act as the source of indoctrination, (presumably through controlled EMF, Infrasound and Ultrasound exposure). At first, these implants are unnoticable, but may eventually become visible depending on physiology and progression, (TIM's did not immediately appear after Shanxi; Shepard's are only revealed during Control and Synth endings as his flesh is ripped away; Saren's had become distinctly visible). If Object Rho is the "full" canon behind Shepard's indoctrination, the means and significance would parallel the stories of TIM and Saren- both started as powerful, important and honorable men, then were subject to Reaper device outbursts, for a brief time tried to stop the Reapers/other indoctrinated people before finally becoming antagonists.