Valentia X wrote...
And on that note, I'm off to bed. Good luck with all the circular thinking.
Good night sweet prince.
The canon (minimum) amount of time Shepard has been exposed to Reaper tech
Débuté par
Leonardo the Magnificent
, mai 13 2012 01:32
#401
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:29
balance5050
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Good night sweet prince.
Retour en haut
#402
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:30
111987
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dreman9999 wrote...
Soyour partialy hit by and indoctriantion wave....Your body and thinking change and have physical changes tothe eys...And your friend , who touches it dirctly is turned to this...
And you think there no chance for partial indoctrinationwith you?
It's unclear what the wave actually did to TIM. As seen by his actions, he is definitely anti-Reaper. If it had been festering for 20 years, he wouldn't be against the Reapers by the time ME2 came around.
You can't say indoctrination acts like a cancer than grows, and also say TIM has always been 'partially' indoctrinated. What the hell does that mean anyways? The Reaper's only kind of whisper in TIM's mind?
Modifié par 111987, 14 mai 2012 - 07:31 .
#403
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:33
111987
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balance5050 wrote...
Right.... tricking thousands into becoming husk experiment is protecting humanity, Cerberus picked up sovereigns remains and used it to make EDI and god knows what else.
Plus you know, every cycle has their own cerberus, because of the reapers addiction to the cycle.
Like I said, you could make the argument that TIM became indoctrinated from the Human Reaper by the beginning of ME3. Or not.
TIM has always been fine with experimenting on, and even sacrificing humans for the greater good.
You also did not address any of my other points. That makes me sad. And discourages me from continuing this discussion.
#404
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:34
balance5050
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111987 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Soyour partialy hit by and indoctriantion wave....Your body and thinking change and have physical changes tothe eys...And your friend , who touches it dirctly is turned to this...
And you think there no chance for partial indoctrinationwith you?
It's unclear what the wave actually did to TIM. As seen by his actions, he is definitely anti-Reaper. If it had been festering for 20 years, he wouldn't be against the Reapers by the time ME2 came around.
You can't say indoctrination acts like a cancer than grows, and also say TIM has always been 'partially' indoctrinated. What the hell does that mean anyways? The Reaper's only kind of whisper in TIM's mind?
He's not anti-reaper, he wants to control them not destroy them remember? Indoctrination effects are permanent.
"I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers"
- say that if we only learned of the reapers a few years ago?
Modifié par balance5050, 14 mai 2012 - 07:37 .
#405
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:36
111987
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balance5050 wrote...
111987 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Soyour partialy hit by and indoctriantion wave....Your body and thinking change and have physical changes tothe eys...And your friend , who touches it dirctly is turned to this...
And you think there no chance for partial indoctrinationwith you?
It's unclear what the wave actually did to TIM. As seen by his actions, he is definitely anti-Reaper. If it had been festering for 20 years, he wouldn't be against the Reapers by the time ME2 came around.
You can't say indoctrination acts like a cancer than grows, and also say TIM has always been 'partially' indoctrinated. What the hell does that mean anyways? The Reaper's only kind of whisper in TIM's mind?
He's not anti-reaper, he wants to control them not destroy them remember? Indoctrination effects are permanent.
"I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers"
He is definitely anti-Reaper. He is not Saren. He just chooses to end their menace in a way that allows humanity to gain their power.
An obvious exaggeration; he didn't even know about the Reapers until Mass Effect: Ascension. He says this himself in his thoughts.
#406
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:40
balance5050
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111987 wrote...
balance5050 wrote...
111987 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Soyour partialy hit by and indoctriantion wave....Your body and thinking change and have physical changes tothe eys...And your friend , who touches it dirctly is turned to this...
And you think there no chance for partial indoctrinationwith you?
It's unclear what the wave actually did to TIM. As seen by his actions, he is definitely anti-Reaper. If it had been festering for 20 years, he wouldn't be against the Reapers by the time ME2 came around.
You can't say indoctrination acts like a cancer than grows, and also say TIM has always been 'partially' indoctrinated. What the hell does that mean anyways? The Reaper's only kind of whisper in TIM's mind?
He's not anti-reaper, he wants to control them not destroy them remember? Indoctrination effects are permanent.
"I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers"
He is definitely anti-Reaper. He is not Saren. He just chooses to end their menace in a way that allows humanity to gain their power.
An obvious exaggeration; he didn't even know about the Reapers until Mass Effect: Ascension. He says this himself in his thoughts.
Anti reaper, thats why he TELLS THE REAPER'S ABOUT THE CRUCIBLE PLAN?!?!
He says "I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers."
Why say that if his knowledge of the reapers is only a few years old?
#407
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:43
111987
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balance5050 wrote...
111987 wrote...
balance5050 wrote...
111987 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Soyour partialy hit by and indoctriantion wave....Your body and thinking change and have physical changes tothe eys...And your friend , who touches it dirctly is turned to this...
And you think there no chance for partial indoctrinationwith you?
It's unclear what the wave actually did to TIM. As seen by his actions, he is definitely anti-Reaper. If it had been festering for 20 years, he wouldn't be against the Reapers by the time ME2 came around.
You can't say indoctrination acts like a cancer than grows, and also say TIM has always been 'partially' indoctrinated. What the hell does that mean anyways? The Reaper's only kind of whisper in TIM's mind?
He's not anti-reaper, he wants to control them not destroy them remember? Indoctrination effects are permanent.
"I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers"
He is definitely anti-Reaper. He is not Saren. He just chooses to end their menace in a way that allows humanity to gain their power.
An obvious exaggeration; he didn't even know about the Reapers until Mass Effect: Ascension. He says this himself in his thoughts.
Anti reaper, thats why he TELLS THE REAPER'S ABOUT THE CRUCIBLE PLAN?!?!
He says "I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers."
Why say that if his knowledge of the reapers is only a few years old?
After he's been implanted...duh?
Who knows? But it isn't true, as I've pointed out. It's like Sovereing saying the Reapers have no beginning and no end. It's like when people in a couple say "i have always loved you"; touching, but technically not true.
#408
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:48
balance5050
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111987 wrote...
balance5050 wrote...
111987 wrote...
balance5050 wrote...
111987 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Soyour partialy hit by and indoctriantion wave....Your body and thinking change and have physical changes tothe eys...And your friend , who touches it dirctly is turned to this...
And you think there no chance for partial indoctrinationwith you?
It's unclear what the wave actually did to TIM. As seen by his actions, he is definitely anti-Reaper. If it had been festering for 20 years, he wouldn't be against the Reapers by the time ME2 came around.
You can't say indoctrination acts like a cancer than grows, and also say TIM has always been 'partially' indoctrinated. What the hell does that mean anyways? The Reaper's only kind of whisper in TIM's mind?
He's not anti-reaper, he wants to control them not destroy them remember? Indoctrination effects are permanent.
"I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers"
He is definitely anti-Reaper. He is not Saren. He just chooses to end their menace in a way that allows humanity to gain their power.
An obvious exaggeration; he didn't even know about the Reapers until Mass Effect: Ascension. He says this himself in his thoughts.
Anti reaper, thats why he TELLS THE REAPER'S ABOUT THE CRUCIBLE PLAN?!?!
He says "I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers."
Why say that if his knowledge of the reapers is only a few years old?
After he's been implanted...duh?
Who knows? But it isn't true, as I've pointed out. It's like Sovereing saying the Reapers have no beginning and no end. It's like when people in a couple say "i have always loved you"; touching, but technically not true.
Who knows? Uhm, there's a splinter group that f***s up in every cycle and theyre indoctrinated. If you can't see that TIM is just a pawn in a grand scheme then I feel sorry that you aren't comprehending everything the game is trying to convey.
As Neo would say - "It's just another form of control"
And on that note i bid you adieu.
#409
Guest_Trust_*
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 11:06
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Maybe Cerberus gave Shepard some Reaper implants when they were resurrecting him in ME2.
Modifié par I1 Trust, 14 mai 2012 - 11:08 .
#410
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 11:30
EricHVela
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The Tiptree farmers were indoctrinated rather quickly without an actual Reaper present. (It was only Cannibal scouts, then a Banshee. The Huntress never mentioned a Reaper landing. You'd think that would be a big deal in her story. A Reaper landing was never explicitly nor implicitly stated.)
#411
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 11:56
Mobius-Silent
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What annoys me the most is the conflating of indoctrination (A subtle process that works on the organic mind via sonic and EM carriers) and the many and varied implant technologies that the reapers have that is generally delivered using nanotech and that _may_ also include either direct control or indoctrination.
The simple line that that indoctrination cannot physically transform. The reaper tech that does transform may _also_ indoctrinate or directly control or any number of things.
This is why it's so insidious, you can protect yourself from reaper nanotech, you can test for contamination, you can be careful and think that you can study the tech safely, but the infrasonics and EM signal will slowly wear you down until someone cracks and breaches containment then _boom_ husks.
The Arca Monolith was a transformation device that could also indoctrinate TIM was part converted but did not have his brain altered for direct control hence his beliefs that the tech could be studied, Had he stayed close to it for longer I'm sure he would have fallen under it's thrall and eventually he did fall completely but he spend a long time as a high-functioning non-reaper slave even after the event on Shanxi.
The simple line that that indoctrination cannot physically transform. The reaper tech that does transform may _also_ indoctrinate or directly control or any number of things.
This is why it's so insidious, you can protect yourself from reaper nanotech, you can test for contamination, you can be careful and think that you can study the tech safely, but the infrasonics and EM signal will slowly wear you down until someone cracks and breaches containment then _boom_ husks.
The Arca Monolith was a transformation device that could also indoctrinate TIM was part converted but did not have his brain altered for direct control hence his beliefs that the tech could be studied, Had he stayed close to it for longer I'm sure he would have fallen under it's thrall and eventually he did fall completely but he spend a long time as a high-functioning non-reaper slave even after the event on Shanxi.
#412
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 12:02
Wulfram
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ReggarBlane wrote...
The Tiptree farmers were indoctrinated rather quickly without an actual Reaper present. (It was only Cannibal scouts, then a Banshee. The Huntress never mentioned a Reaper landing. You'd think that would be a big deal in her story. A Reaper landing was never explicitly nor implicitly stated.)
Though Banshees are based on Ardat-Yakshi, who have their own abilities for mental domination
#413
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 02:55
fr33stylez
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Auralius Carolus wrote...
111987 wrote...
fr33stylez wrote...
Auralius Carolus wrote...
#2. Substitution, not exclusion, is Bioware's keystone method of progressing the lore in Mass Effect 3. There are over a dozen different characters that can die as a result of Shepard's actions/inactions and in the event that one is missing, another is there to take its place. All corresponding events will still occur as well, (i.e., Kirrahe will distract Kai on the Citadel if Thane dies in ME2, Alliance Special Forces will distroy the Alpha Relay for you, etc.). Therefore, if a critical event resulting in Shepard's indoctrination were to occur in DLC, the core of the lore, (the state of indoctrination), would not change simply because a given player didn't play "Arrival"; the specifics would be substituted in order to satisfy the base narrative.
I'm confused...so you're saying:
1) If your Shepard never played Arrival DLC
a) Which results in Hackett sending an Alliance team to destroy the relay,
Which means Shepard never was in contact with Object Rho on Project Base...
...Still means Shepard was in contact with Object Rho?
If what you're saying was true, the developers simply would've kept the intro of ME2 the same for all Shepards, i.e. Shepard plays Arrival whether or not YOUR Shepard actually played it. Rather, the developers distinctly made the choice to say Hackett ordered someone else to blow up the relay on Project Base, not Shepard. There is no opportunity for intreraction with Project Rho in this case. However, according to IT, Shepard is indoctrinated all the same.
You cannot point to Arrival and say all Shepards experience Object Rho when the game explicitly states otherwise.
I believe he is saying that if Shep wasn't put into contact with Object Rho, BioWare would make up some other reason he was indoctrinated.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I've added emphasis to my earlier quote for clarity, as it is really not that difficult to comprehend.
Bioware has performed this substitution/mild alteration trick time after time in this game, both for vanilla choices and past DLC consideration. Simply because someone did not play Arrival, will not stop Bioware from instituting IT in everyone's gameplay if that has been their goal all along. The biggest difference would likely be the clear, defining moment of nanite implantation and the potential of hearing Harbinger declare, "Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine."
You still seem to be missing the point.
I'm not saying you can't argue that all playthroughs would be covered in IT if you believe in the theory, I'm saying you cannot point to Arrival as some 'defining moment' for indoctrination when Arrival does NOT happen for everyone. You must point to other evidence of indoctrination that is sufficient and necessary for indoctrination to occur to Shepard in ALL playthroughs. That is, the 'threshold' for indoctrination must have occured WITHOUT Arrival, in order for it to be valid for all Shepards.
I will reiterate what I said in my initial post:
If what you're saying was true, the developers simply would've kept the intro of ME3 the same for all Shepards, i.e. all Shepards experience the events of Arrival whether or not YOUR Shepard actually played it.
Rather, the developers distinctly made the choice in the plot of ME3 to say Hackett ordered someone else to blow up the relay on Project Base, not Shepard. There is no opportunity for intreraction with Project Rho in this case.
#414
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 03:07
Deltateam Elcor
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Lets try to explain it then.
If indoctrination is ultrasonic sounds at whatever frequencies, then you would have to be in the vicinity of the transmitter for an amount of time.
If indoctrination is in fact a very complicated virus, then its self explanatory.
There are probably other ways, I am not sure, however, even the minimal amount of time that Shepard and friends have been around objects and reapers, it has most likely affected him.
I cannot tell if it is direct or a field or whether other crew members have been targeted (if they can do that, i can imagine they can).
We don't know if it is cumulative or if it is only on the spot.
We simply do not know enough to make a decision on it, all we know is that people get headaches, messed up dreams, become distant after awhile, the fact that they can control the extremes of outright un dead mindless slave to complicated suggestions to a fully working person and that we know they can do the latter. (Prothean spies)
Considering the amount of suggestion that can be transmitted by so many reapers and their devices on earth, i can only imagine that he's under some serious strain.
If indoctrination is ultrasonic sounds at whatever frequencies, then you would have to be in the vicinity of the transmitter for an amount of time.
If indoctrination is in fact a very complicated virus, then its self explanatory.
There are probably other ways, I am not sure, however, even the minimal amount of time that Shepard and friends have been around objects and reapers, it has most likely affected him.
I cannot tell if it is direct or a field or whether other crew members have been targeted (if they can do that, i can imagine they can).
We don't know if it is cumulative or if it is only on the spot.
We simply do not know enough to make a decision on it, all we know is that people get headaches, messed up dreams, become distant after awhile, the fact that they can control the extremes of outright un dead mindless slave to complicated suggestions to a fully working person and that we know they can do the latter. (Prothean spies)
Considering the amount of suggestion that can be transmitted by so many reapers and their devices on earth, i can only imagine that he's under some serious strain.
#415
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 03:38
Gogzilla
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Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
So, has Shepard really been exposed to enough Reaper tech to become indoctrinated? Probably not...
But is that enough time to try to indoctrinate Shepard ?
not that i agree with any of those numbers, travel time alone proabably takes longer than any of those numbers.
Not to mention the numerous firefights and also any medical situation whilst doing any of that.
Ignoring all that ,
It took less than 1 second of contact with a reaper artifcat to make TIM susceptible to indoctrination.
Just so we are clear being indoctrinated does not = indoctrinated.
Shepard has not only had prelonged and repeated exposre to reapers but he has been the subject of their attention in almost all cases of contact.
#416
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 07:57
Leonardo the Magnificent
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Gogzilla wrote...
Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
So, has Shepard really been exposed to enough Reaper tech to become indoctrinated? Probably not...
But is that enough time to try to indoctrinate Shepard ?
not that i agree with any of those numbers, travel time alone proabably takes longer than any of those numbers.
Not to mention the numerous firefights and also any medical situation whilst doing any of that.
Ignoring all that ,
It took less than 1 second of contact with a reaper artifcat to make TIM susceptible to indoctrination.
Just so we are clear being indoctrinated does not = indoctrinated.
Shepard has not only had prelonged and repeated exposre to reapers but he has been the subject of their attention in almost all cases of contact.
If they were to try to indoctrinate Shepard in such a short time period, it would render him a babbling idiot. Codex states that subtle indoc. takes at least days of mild exposure, like Saren, for example. He spent all of his travel time inside Sovereign, which was undoubtedly much longer than the time Shepard spent in a dead Reaper.
The only other time Shepard is plot-mandated to spend time around Reaper tech is when he's facing Reaper troops. However, we don't know how effective they are at indoctrination or even if they can. Would a reasonable estimate for their ability to indoc. be limited at best?
Also, the numbers themselves come from the average lenghth of the mission (that includes firefights and medical situations, as they are resolved in the course of the mission) coupled with the time spent in cutscenes with Reaper tech present in that mission. So, basically the average length of a mission.
As for travel time, which occurs off-screen, there are actually very few moments in which Shep travels in the direct presence of Reaper tech, which also limits his exposure via this method. If you can provide any instance where there is a reason to assume there's a long time skip in the presence of Reaper tech, please let me know so I can add it to the OP.
#418
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 11:26
Auralius Carolus
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fr33stylez wrote...
You still seem to be missing the point.
I'm not saying you can't argue that all playthroughs would be covered in IT if you believe in the theory, I'm saying you cannot point to Arrival as some 'defining moment' for indoctrination when Arrival does NOT happen for everyone. You must point to other evidence of indoctrination that is sufficient and necessary for indoctrination to occur to Shepard in ALL playthroughs. That is, the 'threshold' for indoctrination must have occured WITHOUT Arrival, in order for it to be valid for all Shepards.
I will reiterate what I said in my initial post:
If what you're saying was true, the developers simply would've kept the intro of ME3 the same for all Shepards, i.e. all Shepards experience the events of Arrival whether or not YOUR Shepard actually played it.
Rather, the developers distinctly made the choice in the plot of ME3 to say Hackett ordered someone else to blow up the relay on Project Base, not Shepard. There is no opportunity for intreraction with Project Rho in this case.
No, of course everyone won't experience it, but that does not dismiss the validity of my point.
As I have already stated, all that is required for the indoctrination process to begin is the misfortune of coming in contact with nanite-producing Reaper Tech. The most likely moment, which is valid for all ME2 players, is the Human Reaper fight. However, Shepard likely has more experience with Reapers and Reaper tech than any given human out there; there are more than enough opportunities for IT to be established without Arrival.
However, it should be noted, that ME DLC content always reveals aspects of the lore, otherwise hidden. In ME1 it was the nature of Batarian terrorism. In ME2 it was the nature of the Shadow Broker, Cerberus operations and Alliance involvement with an soon-to-come Reaper invasion.
As for changing the beginnings to suit Arrival, you misunderstand me. Arrival defines, in other words reveals or spells out, important aspects for Shepard just like all DLC before it. Just like all of the other DLCs, Arrival barely changes the story but you do miss out on the experience and what is revealed. The impact in ME3 is superficial, at best; what it does and does not effect is not dissimilar to a rawr first-time player picking up ME3 without any previous gameplay. The story will continue, you simply will miss out on the full experience.
Yes, I know, this is in many ways akin to a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it is the nature of Bioware's modeling of ME3.
#419
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 11:49
Auralius Carolus
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Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
Gogzilla wrote...
Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
So, has Shepard really been exposed to enough Reaper tech to become indoctrinated? Probably not...
But is that enough time to try to indoctrinate Shepard ?
not that i agree with any of those numbers, travel time alone proabably takes longer than any of those numbers.
Not to mention the numerous firefights and also any medical situation whilst doing any of that.
Ignoring all that ,
It took less than 1 second of contact with a reaper artifcat to make TIM susceptible to indoctrination.
Just so we are clear being indoctrinated does not = indoctrinated.
Shepard has not only had prelonged and repeated exposre to reapers but he has been the subject of their attention in almost all cases of contact.
If they were to try to indoctrinate Shepard in such a short time period, it would render him a babbling idiot. Codex states that subtle indoc. takes at least days of mild exposure, like Saren, for example. He spent all of his travel time inside Sovereign, which was undoubtedly much longer than the time Shepard spent in a dead Reaper.
The only other time Shepard is plot-mandated to spend time around Reaper tech is when he's facing Reaper troops. However, we don't know how effective they are at indoctrination or even if they can. Would a reasonable estimate for their ability to indoc. be limited at best?
Also, the numbers themselves come from the average lenghth of the mission (that includes firefights and medical situations, as they are resolved in the course of the mission) coupled with the time spent in cutscenes with Reaper tech present in that mission. So, basically the average length of a mission.
As for travel time, which occurs off-screen, there are actually very few moments in which Shep travels in the direct presence of Reaper tech, which also limits his exposure via this method. If you can provide any instance where there is a reason to assume there's a long time skip in the presence of Reaper tech, please let me know so I can add it to the OP.
Long-term exposure isn't the only way. As some of us have stated, the Reapers use nanites to do much of their dirty work, including transmitting signals, processing organics, implantation, etc.
All it takes is brief, but unfortunate, exposure to nanite producing tech for these little machines to imbed themselves in a host and begin the process of synthetic alteration and replication. The host, who may be completely unsuspecting given such brief exposure, begins to have implants spread through its body. These nanites and their constructs are then used to pickup, broadcast and even amplify Reaper signals remotely. In other words, the host becomes a walking indoctrination device.
#420
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 12:25
Leonardo the Magnificent
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Auralius Carolus wrote...
Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
Gogzilla wrote...
Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
So, has Shepard really been exposed to enough Reaper tech to become indoctrinated? Probably not...
But is that enough time to try to indoctrinate Shepard ?
not that i agree with any of those numbers, travel time alone proabably takes longer than any of those numbers.
Not to mention the numerous firefights and also any medical situation whilst doing any of that.
Ignoring all that ,
It took less than 1 second of contact with a reaper artifcat to make TIM susceptible to indoctrination.
Just so we are clear being indoctrinated does not = indoctrinated.
Shepard has not only had prelonged and repeated exposre to reapers but he has been the subject of their attention in almost all cases of contact.
If they were to try to indoctrinate Shepard in such a short time period, it would render him a babbling idiot. Codex states that subtle indoc. takes at least days of mild exposure, like Saren, for example. He spent all of his travel time inside Sovereign, which was undoubtedly much longer than the time Shepard spent in a dead Reaper.
The only other time Shepard is plot-mandated to spend time around Reaper tech is when he's facing Reaper troops. However, we don't know how effective they are at indoctrination or even if they can. Would a reasonable estimate for their ability to indoc. be limited at best?
Also, the numbers themselves come from the average lenghth of the mission (that includes firefights and medical situations, as they are resolved in the course of the mission) coupled with the time spent in cutscenes with Reaper tech present in that mission. So, basically the average length of a mission.
As for travel time, which occurs off-screen, there are actually very few moments in which Shep travels in the direct presence of Reaper tech, which also limits his exposure via this method. If you can provide any instance where there is a reason to assume there's a long time skip in the presence of Reaper tech, please let me know so I can add it to the OP.
Long-term exposure isn't the only way. As some of us have stated, the Reapers use nanites to do much of their dirty work, including transmitting signals, processing organics, implantation, etc.
All it takes is brief, but unfortunate, exposure to nanite producing tech for these little machines to imbed themselves in a host and begin the process of synthetic alteration and replication. The host, who may be completely unsuspecting given such brief exposure, begins to have implants spread through its body. These nanites and their constructs are then used to pickup, broadcast and even amplify Reaper signals remotely. In other words, the host becomes a walking indoctrination device.
But if Shepard were to become infected with these nanites, his indoctrination would be absolutely guarunteed. Not only that, but he'd also eventually turn into a husk via the process of nanification (or what have you). And even if he only spends time around those who are broadcasting signals, how are we to know how much? It's a very big unknown that opens quite the can o' worms.
#421
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 12:35
Swimming Ferret
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Dean_the_Young wrote...
Many of those shouldn't count simply because they aren't established sources of indoctrination. Reaper troops and Dragon's Teeth aren't established indoctrination means, nor has the Collector Ship, Collector Base or proto-Reaper even been established to have the capacity to indoctrinat anyone, nor did Shepard's team ever voice any warning signs.
This.
As far as we know, only Reapers can indocrinate. You only have a physical fight with 3, so to speak. I'm not sure if Sovereign counts, as you can see his legs and body on the citadel but you don't outright attack him physically. The Reaper on Tuchunka and Rannoch you are closer to, (Tuchunka especially as the thing almost stomps on you a few times) those two exposures are only minutes at the max. Not hours or days like some people (like Rena and Shiala.)
And Husks are created through getting impaled on Dragons Teeth which turns their bodies into mechs/husks. It doesn't indocrinate them, as you can see by reading the codex.
"The devices convert the muscle, organs and water content of a corpse into cybernetic parts – possibly recovering a miniscule amount of nutrients – then reanimate the body with an electrical charge, turning it into a simple-minded husk that attacks anyone who gets close enough. Releasing the new husk also retracts the spike back into the tripod, ready for re-use."
The Dragons teeth don't indocrinate. It basically turns a body (dead or alive) into violent, expendable foot soldiers.
Saying all that other stuff makse people indocrinated is silly; it is never established. Also, Arrival doesn't count for if you don't download it, a squad of marines do it.
#422
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 12:44
Leonardo the Magnificent
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This.
As far as we know, only Reapers can indocrinate. You only have a physical fight with 3, so to speak. I'm not sure if Sovereign counts, as you can see his legs and body on the citadel but you don't outright attack him physically. The Reaper on Tuchunka and Rannoch you are closer to, (Tuchunka especially as the thing almost stomps on you a few times) those two exposures are only minutes at the max. Not hours or days like some people (like Rena and Shiala.)
And Husks are created through getting impaled on Dragons Teeth which turns their bodies into mechs/husks. It doesn't indocrinate them, as you can see by reading the codex.
"The devices convert the muscle, organs and water content of a corpse into cybernetic parts – possibly recovering a miniscule amount of nutrients – then reanimate the body with an electrical charge, turning it into a simple-minded husk that attacks anyone who gets close enough. Releasing the new husk also retracts the spike back into the tripod, ready for re-use."
The Dragons teeth don't indocrinate. It basically turns a body (dead or alive) into violent, expendable foot soldiers.
Saying all that other stuff makse people indocrinated is silly; it is never established. Also, Arrival doesn't count for if you don't download it, a squad of marines do it.[/quote]
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Actually, I think the nanites in husks can be used to broadcast the signals that can eventually lead to indoc., although it requires constant exposure for that to actually do anything. And since the proto-Reaper is indeed a Reaper, it'd be best to count it.
But as for the other sources, they were only compiled to show how, even in a world where almost everything but the Citadel indoctrinates, it's still not that much.
EDIT: deleted the quotation barrier...somehow
As far as we know, only Reapers can indocrinate. You only have a physical fight with 3, so to speak. I'm not sure if Sovereign counts, as you can see his legs and body on the citadel but you don't outright attack him physically. The Reaper on Tuchunka and Rannoch you are closer to, (Tuchunka especially as the thing almost stomps on you a few times) those two exposures are only minutes at the max. Not hours or days like some people (like Rena and Shiala.)
And Husks are created through getting impaled on Dragons Teeth which turns their bodies into mechs/husks. It doesn't indocrinate them, as you can see by reading the codex.
"The devices convert the muscle, organs and water content of a corpse into cybernetic parts – possibly recovering a miniscule amount of nutrients – then reanimate the body with an electrical charge, turning it into a simple-minded husk that attacks anyone who gets close enough. Releasing the new husk also retracts the spike back into the tripod, ready for re-use."
The Dragons teeth don't indocrinate. It basically turns a body (dead or alive) into violent, expendable foot soldiers.
Saying all that other stuff makse people indocrinated is silly; it is never established. Also, Arrival doesn't count for if you don't download it, a squad of marines do it.[/quote]
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Actually, I think the nanites in husks can be used to broadcast the signals that can eventually lead to indoc., although it requires constant exposure for that to actually do anything. And since the proto-Reaper is indeed a Reaper, it'd be best to count it.
But as for the other sources, they were only compiled to show how, even in a world where almost everything but the Citadel indoctrinates, it's still not that much.
EDIT: deleted the quotation barrier...somehow
Modifié par Leonardo the Magnificent, 15 mai 2012 - 12:45 .
#423
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 03:14
Crimson Fluf
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If you want to talk canon, Arrival is canon. 
That means every shepard could be indoctrinated. 2 days unconscious or something like that? Pretty solid evidence that is indisputable.
And claiming that 'your shep' didnt do arrival is absurd, since the entire intro to the third game is based off of Arrival. You have been honorably discharged from the Alliance for your ties to Cerberus, yes. But you have also been under criminal watch due to destroying the relay in Arrival and murdering A ****-ton of batarians. IT IS ESTABLISHED CANON.
That means every shepard could be indoctrinated. 2 days unconscious or something like that? Pretty solid evidence that is indisputable.
And claiming that 'your shep' didnt do arrival is absurd, since the entire intro to the third game is based off of Arrival. You have been honorably discharged from the Alliance for your ties to Cerberus, yes. But you have also been under criminal watch due to destroying the relay in Arrival and murdering A ****-ton of batarians. IT IS ESTABLISHED CANON.
Modifié par Crimson Fluf, 15 mai 2012 - 03:19 .
#424
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 03:17
Auralius Carolus
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[quote]Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
This.
As far as we know, only Reapers can indocrinate. You only have a physical fight with 3, so to speak. I'm not sure if Sovereign counts, as you can see his legs and body on the citadel but you don't outright attack him physically. The Reaper on Tuchunka and Rannoch you are closer to, (Tuchunka especially as the thing almost stomps on you a few times) those two exposures are only minutes at the max. Not hours or days like some people (like Rena and Shiala.)
And Husks are created through getting impaled on Dragons Teeth which turns their bodies into mechs/husks. It doesn't indocrinate them, as you can see by reading the codex.
"The devices convert the muscle, organs and water content of a corpse into cybernetic parts – possibly recovering a miniscule amount of nutrients – then reanimate the body with an electrical charge, turning it into a simple-minded husk that attacks anyone who gets close enough. Releasing the new husk also retracts the spike back into the tripod, ready for re-use."
The Dragons teeth don't indocrinate. It basically turns a body (dead or alive) into violent, expendable foot soldiers.
Saying all that other stuff makse people indocrinated is silly; it is never established. Also, Arrival doesn't count for if you don't download it, a squad of marines do it.[/quote]
----------
Actually, I think the nanites in husks can be used to broadcast the signals that can eventually lead to indoc., although it requires constant exposure for that to actually do anything. And since the proto-Reaper is indeed a Reaper, it'd be best to count it.
But as for the other sources, they were only compiled to show how, even in a world where almost everything but the Citadel indoctrinates, it's still not that much.
EDIT: deleted the quotation barrier...somehow
[/quote]
The Shanxi Artifact was capable of rapid indoctrination and implantation, as was Object Rho, which Shepard himself was affected by. A third artifact can be found on a certain backwater planet in ME1, where an entire excavation team was driven mad and used Dragon's Teeth, found with the artifact, to give themselves up as self-sacrifices.
As far as Dragon's Teeth being needed for husks to be produced, this, I believe, is not true. As can be seen in the Cerberus labs, nanite experiments successfully produced husks without impalement. Likewise, Banshees seem to be produced without such devices, but instead morph gradually. The case may be that Teeth are used to secure whatever useful materials are available, in an otherwise unworthy candidate, for processing. Obviously, they are used to terrorize the general population as well.
In regards to a given individual being condemned to decay into a husk after prolonged indoctrination, the given amount of time seems to vary greatly- likely according the the controlling Reaper's intent. In the event that the Reapers were to be destroyed, it is possible that the implantation/indoctrination process would cease. Then again, exactly what denotes "dead" for a Reaper is up for debate.
This.
As far as we know, only Reapers can indocrinate. You only have a physical fight with 3, so to speak. I'm not sure if Sovereign counts, as you can see his legs and body on the citadel but you don't outright attack him physically. The Reaper on Tuchunka and Rannoch you are closer to, (Tuchunka especially as the thing almost stomps on you a few times) those two exposures are only minutes at the max. Not hours or days like some people (like Rena and Shiala.)
And Husks are created through getting impaled on Dragons Teeth which turns their bodies into mechs/husks. It doesn't indocrinate them, as you can see by reading the codex.
"The devices convert the muscle, organs and water content of a corpse into cybernetic parts – possibly recovering a miniscule amount of nutrients – then reanimate the body with an electrical charge, turning it into a simple-minded husk that attacks anyone who gets close enough. Releasing the new husk also retracts the spike back into the tripod, ready for re-use."
The Dragons teeth don't indocrinate. It basically turns a body (dead or alive) into violent, expendable foot soldiers.
Saying all that other stuff makse people indocrinated is silly; it is never established. Also, Arrival doesn't count for if you don't download it, a squad of marines do it.[/quote]
----------
Actually, I think the nanites in husks can be used to broadcast the signals that can eventually lead to indoc., although it requires constant exposure for that to actually do anything. And since the proto-Reaper is indeed a Reaper, it'd be best to count it.
But as for the other sources, they were only compiled to show how, even in a world where almost everything but the Citadel indoctrinates, it's still not that much.
EDIT: deleted the quotation barrier...somehow
[/quote]
The Shanxi Artifact was capable of rapid indoctrination and implantation, as was Object Rho, which Shepard himself was affected by. A third artifact can be found on a certain backwater planet in ME1, where an entire excavation team was driven mad and used Dragon's Teeth, found with the artifact, to give themselves up as self-sacrifices.
As far as Dragon's Teeth being needed for husks to be produced, this, I believe, is not true. As can be seen in the Cerberus labs, nanite experiments successfully produced husks without impalement. Likewise, Banshees seem to be produced without such devices, but instead morph gradually. The case may be that Teeth are used to secure whatever useful materials are available, in an otherwise unworthy candidate, for processing. Obviously, they are used to terrorize the general population as well.
In regards to a given individual being condemned to decay into a husk after prolonged indoctrination, the given amount of time seems to vary greatly- likely according the the controlling Reaper's intent. In the event that the Reapers were to be destroyed, it is possible that the implantation/indoctrination process would cease. Then again, exactly what denotes "dead" for a Reaper is up for debate.
#425
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 03:21
Auralius Carolus
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Crimson Fluf wrote...
If you want to talk canon, Arrival is canon.
That means every shepard could be indoctrinated. 2 days unconscious or something like that? Pretty solid evidence that is indisputable.
The main argument being presented against Arrival, at least in this thread, is the lack of a clear indoctrinating parallel outside of the DLC, for those who have not played it.
But yes, what happened to Shepard with Object Rho closely resembles the event that lead to the "creation" of the Illusive Man and Saren.
"Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine." - Harbinger, after lasting ~5mins during the Object Rho encounter
How's that for a clue?
