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[Leonardo the Magnificent]

vitae-vixi wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

vitae-vixi wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

DashRunner92 wrote...

How does the Reaper in Tuchanka count as "limited" exposure. That Reaper is literally on your butt during the entire finale of that planet.

Pretty much an assumption that destroyers aren't as capable at indoc. as capital ships. That, and we have no indication that it's actively trying to indoc. you, so I also chalked it up as ambient indoc. or, in other words, limited indoc. Until it can be otherwise proven, it stays.

Hah - you know what they say about assuming things... it makes an ass out of u and me.

... And that's a pretty big assumption.... which means... 

Once again, pretty much. But the game never even bothers to explain destroyer's indoc. abilities so we'd assume (seeng as how we only know the capabilities of the all around more powerful capital ships) that they'd be weaker in this regard to. So it's more along the lines of an educated guess.

I don't know, I'd be tempted to guess at the same unless proven otherwise rather than speculate at different levels of effectiveness. Otherwise you are introducing ideas which aren't previously  discussed as opposed to using bits of lore we do know.

Fair enough. Still, we do know that a Reaper's ability to passively indoc. someone requires long amounts of constant exposure (like how the Cerberus scientists were indoctrinated), so would the short amount of time Shep. does spend around it really have that much of an effect?

[vitae-vixi]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Fair enough. Still, we do know that a Reaper's ability to passively indoc. someone requires long amounts of constant exposure (like how the Cerberus scientists were indoctrinated), so would the short amount of time Shep. does spend around it really have that much of an effect?

What we don't know is if there is a latent effect to indoctrination. Is it akin to radiation or does it leave permanent markers of some sort on a person's thought processes?

Well, we see that the Asari scientist (ack what's her name!?) that we meet on Virmire and then in the labs with Okeer never recovered despite repeatedly being removed from the source of indoctrination.

It's quite possible (in the realms of speculation) that indoctrination could be akin to radiation and that once affected it could irradiate (I'll use this term for lack of a better one) other parts of the thought process or brain.

EDIT: And is it possible for them to target certain people? According to Harbringer, yes. He seems to imply (especially with his fixation on Shepard) that he can focus his attacks on her.

Additionally - Object Rho focuses' it's power onto Shepard. It didn't knock the scientists out, that was slow but with Shepard it forces him/her to the floor.

Plus - what does exposure to a sleeping or unconcious brain do? Surely a sleeping / unconscious brain is more susceptable since it is Shepard's will which reportedly gives her some resistance.

Modifié par vitae-vixi, 15 mai 2012 - 08:24 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

vitae-vixi wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Fair enough. Still, we do know that a Reaper's ability to passively indoc. someone requires long amounts of constant exposure (like how the Cerberus scientists were indoctrinated), so would the short amount of time Shep. does spend around it really have that much of an effect?

What we don't know is if there is a latent effect to indoctrination. Is it akin to radiation or does it leave permanent markers of some sort on a person's thought processes?

Well, we see that the Asari scientist (ack what's her name!?) that we meet on Virmire and then in the labs with Okeer never recovered despite repeatedly being removed from the source of indoctrination.

It's quite possible (in the realms of speculation) that indoctrination could be akin to radiation and that once affected it could irradiate (I'll use this term for lack of a better one) other parts of the thought process or brain.

EDIT: And is it possible for them to target certain people? According to Harbringer, yes. He seems to imply (especially with his fixation on Shepard) that he can focus his attacks on her.

Additionally - Object Rho focuses' it's power onto Shepard. It didn't knock the scientists out, that was slow but with Shepard it forces him/her to the floor.

Plus - what does exposure to a sleeping or unconcious brain do? Surely a sleeping / unconscious brain is more susceptable since it is Shepard's will which reportedly gives her some resistance.

I think, per the codex, that you cross a certain threshold to where you've been exposed enough to Reaper tech that you become indoctrinated no matter what, hence the sleeper agents.

As for Harbinger, while he can focus the attacks of the Collectors on Shep, he does so by controlling them through implants that they recieved via their repurposement. There has yet to be evidence of a Reaper focusing indoctrination waves (whatever they're called) at a specific target. They can emit a high-powered burst of indoc., but that cripples the mind of all those it's exposed to.

Lastly, Object Rho has to be discarded as evidence since Shepard is not exposed to it unless you play Arrival (marines do it instead), which is the default for all new games.

[vitae-vixi]

No, Object Rho cannot be discarded because it's actions are canon to those Shepards who play the DLC. Additionally, Object Rho adds lore so whether you have the DLC or not, the fact remains that in the universe it's actions and abilities = X which means Y.

Putting it another way, it cannot be ignored because no matter what, it can do whatever it does, whether a Shepard comes in contact with it or not.

We know as gamers that playing that DLC will give us information. The information does not-not exist because this Shepard does not play it, the same as a bird still exists even though I can't see it.

Modifié par vitae-vixi, 15 mai 2012 - 08:44 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

vitae-vixi wrote...

No, Object Rho cannot be discarded because it's actions are canon to those Shepards who play the DLC. Additionally, Object Rho adds lore so whether you have the DLC or not, the fact remains that in the universe it's actions and abilities = X which means Y.

Yes, it can. Every Shepard becomes indoctrinated right? Well, not every Shepard is exposed to object Rho. It's abilities can only be used in a similar scenario, which we have not seen. Object Rho is, so far, an anomaly.

[SirCroft]

Maybe indoctrinated people can also expose Shepard?

The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.

Which could mean that, not only TIM was able to control Shepard through indoctrination, he worked as an indoctrination device as well.

Modifié par SirCroft, 15 mai 2012 - 08:50 .

[vitae-vixi]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

vitae-vixi wrote...

No, Object Rho cannot be discarded because it's actions are canon to those Shepards who play the DLC. Additionally, Object Rho adds lore so whether you have the DLC or not, the fact remains that in the universe it's actions and abilities = X which means Y.

Yes, it can. Every Shepard becomes indoctrinated right? Well, not every Shepard is exposed to object Rho. It's abilities can only be used in a similar scenario, which we have not seen. Object Rho is, so far, an anomaly.

An example of lore still happening whether or not Shepard has a part in it or not is, for example, the referrence to Arrival in any way shape or form. The reference is like you said, to the marines and the destruction of the Mass Relay. This lore occurs whether we play the DLC or not. Object Rho's abilities exist whether or not Shepard comes into contact with it or not.

As players we have the privaledged position of knowing lore exists even if we don't encounter it.

Thus it's lore should not be discounted. It was paid DLC yes, not everyone has it, not everyone plays it however through it we know that indoctrination can be concentrated  on a single individual in a burst - enough to knock a strong willed person to his or her knees and cause them to have visions.

This supports the argument that Shepard, even if he or she has minimum exposure time wise could have had relatively strong exposure in those short times.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

SirCroft wrote...

Maybe indoctrinated people can also expose Shepard?

The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.

Which could mean that, not only TIM was able to control Shepard through indoctrination, he worked as an indoctrination device as well.

Possible. But Shepard is exposed to T.I.M. for how long, exactly? If T.I.M. did indoc. Shepard this way, it would turn Shep's brains into mush.

[vitae-vixi]

SirCroft wrote...

Maybe indoctrinated people can also expose Shepard?

The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.

Which could mean that, not only TIM was able to control Shepard through indoctrination, he worked as an indoctrination device as well.

Ooo nice point =D

You could essentially have beacons of Reaper power - these sleeper agents - just milling around the population slowly subverting normal thought... Shepard then could well have exposure on the citadel also.

In essence - a minimally exposed shepard (i.e. minimal quest completion) could still be argued to have maximum exposure through his interactions with people. If he hasn't stopped things which could spead reaper indoctrination it could be argued that more of these sleepers are around and indoctrinating Shepard to a certain point.

Modifié par vitae-vixi, 15 mai 2012 - 08:56 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

vitae-vixi wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

Maybe indoctrinated people can also expose Shepard?

The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.

Which could mean that, not only TIM was able to control Shepard through indoctrination, he worked as an indoctrination device as well.

Ooo nice point =D

You could essentially have beacons of Reaper power - these sleeper agents - just milling around the population slowly subverting normal thought... Shepard then could well have exposure on the citadel also.

In essence - a minimally exposed shepard (i.e. minimal quest completion) could still be argued to have maximum exposure through his interactions with people. If he hasn't stopped things which could spead reaper indoctrination it could be argued that more of these sleepers are around and indoctrinating Shepard to a certain point.

From a writing perspective, using that would open up a rediculous amount of problems.

[vitae-vixi]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

vitae-vixi wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

Maybe indoctrinated people can also expose Shepard?

The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.

Which could mean that, not only TIM was able to control Shepard through indoctrination, he worked as an indoctrination device as well.

Ooo nice point =D

You could essentially have beacons of Reaper power - these sleeper agents - just milling around the population slowly subverting normal thought... Shepard then could well have exposure on the citadel also.

In essence - a minimally exposed shepard (i.e. minimal quest completion) could still be argued to have maximum exposure through his interactions with people. If he hasn't stopped things which could spead reaper indoctrination it could be argued that more of these sleepers are around and indoctrinating Shepard to a certain point.

From a writing perspective, using that would open up a rediculous amount of problems.

.... true, but I don't think they care about that some how... seeing as they've caused themselves (and us) enough problems to be getting on with.

EDIT: From a writing perspective, they've already caused a **** storm.

Modifié par vitae-vixi, 15 mai 2012 - 09:11 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

vitae-vixi wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

vitae-vixi wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

Maybe indoctrinated people can also expose Shepard?

The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.

Which could mean that, not only TIM was able to control Shepard through indoctrination, he worked as an indoctrination device as well.

Ooo nice point =D

You could essentially have beacons of Reaper power - these sleeper agents - just milling around the population slowly subverting normal thought... Shepard then could well have exposure on the citadel also.

In essence - a minimally exposed shepard (i.e. minimal quest completion) could still be argued to have maximum exposure through his interactions with people. If he hasn't stopped things which could spead reaper indoctrination it could be argued that more of these sleepers are around and indoctrinating Shepard to a certain point.

From a writing perspective, using that would open up a rediculous amount of problems.

.... true, but I don't think they care about that some how... seeing as they've caused themselves (and us) enough problems to be getting on with.

EDIT: From a writing perspective, they've already caused a **** storm.

Exactly. Why cause even more of one? In the end of the day, though, it's up to them whether or not to okay I.T. It's just my belief that I.T. wasn't their original idea.