461 réponses à ce sujet

[ShaneP]

I'm pretty sure the exposure, even in cases of rapid indoctrination has to be continuous for it to work. When Shepard is KO'd in Arrival he is put in a different room and sedated, he isn't keep near enough to Object Rho for long enough for it to indoctrinate him. And if it had the indoctrination would have been complete way before the start of the third game.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Bump for speculations.

[Wabajakka]

I like this, it does show even a minimal playthrough Shepard is still very exposed to Reaper tech.

I think Arrival is the biggest one still, but I'm glad you're taking into consideration a Shepard with even "minimal" playtime still undergoes some heavy exposer over time.

[jijeebo]

When you remove optional missions and unverified sources of indoctrination it isn't really that much is it.

Thanks to OP for doing this.

Modifié par jijeebo, 13 mai 2012 - 08:29 .

[EricHVela]

That's the "minimum" assuming you haven't missed anything ... such as the technology used to bring Shepard back in ME2.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Orange Tee wrote...

I like this, it does show even a minimal playthrough Shepard is still very exposed to Reaper tech.

I think Arrival is the biggest one still, but I'm glad you're taking into consideration a Shepard with even "minimal" playtime still undergoes some heavy exposer over time.

Actually, the point was to show that Shep doesn't spend that much time around Reaper tech. At least, not enough to be as indoctrinated as he is for I.T. to be neccesarily plausible.

[Rombomm]

Orange Tee wrote...

I like this, it does show even a minimal playthrough Shepard is still very exposed to Reaper tech.

I think Arrival is the biggest one still, but I'm glad you're taking into consideration a Shepard with even "minimal" playtime still undergoes some heavy exposer over time.

Indocrination takes weeks and months. 13 hours is not "heavy exposure".

[Raiil]

This actually illustrates one of the reasons I can't buy IT. Shepard is exposed to a rather small amount of Reaper tech- not enough to start even slow burn indoc. The only other option is to start brain melting, which goes against their agenda.

[LinksOcarina]

Honestly, the only way heavy exposure occurs is during Arrival, but because it is not canon, it can't be used as concrete evidence.

[poundoffleshaa]

Arrival is canon, its why you are on Earth awaiting trial.

[Raptor_Thirteen]

pretty sure its not "Canon" unless word of god says so... so you're really just guessing.

Also, i'm pretty sure that bioware won't answer 1 way or the other until the revised end is available, since there are a LOT of fans invested for and against IT, and the answer would confirm or deny it.

makes me wonder what the point is, since you must realize you won't KNOW until you know, and that everything else is conjecture

[jijeebo]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

Arrival is canon, its why you are on Earth awaiting trial.

If you don't do it Hackett sends a squad to do it instead and you're on earth for a much more vague reason, presumably just referring to your work with Cerberus.

[Sisterofshane]

The problem with this theory is that indoctrination is not something that just "happens" with exposure to Reaper tech, because if that was the case then anybody who was on the citadel would be indocrinated.

I think it is more correct to assume that the process of indoctrination occurs with the willing choice of the Reapers, and they use their "technology" (such as Dragon's teeth) as a sort of "amplifier" to their signals. Object Rho would be the perfect example of this, as when Shepard approaches it it "pulses" him , and through it we can hear Harbinger directly, as if he were in the Room speaking to us. (note that in the cave with the Exo Geni scientists, there was not just dragon teeth, but an object in the middle of the largest cave that closely resembled object Rho).

[Humakt83]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Actually, the point was to show that Shep doesn't spend that much time around Reaper tech. At least, not enough to be as indoctrinated as he is for I.T. to be neccesarily plausible.

So how long you think Shepard is lying unconscious after Harbinger beam knocks her/him down?

Also one of the sources of indoctrination can be inside Normandy. EDI is partly Reaper tech and they still have Reaper IFF installed. Maybe there is more, Normandy does seem like a ghost ship: http://social.biowar.../index/11995829 

There is no indication that Husks or Dragon Teeth can affect living things, but we do know that some Reaper tech causes indoctrination. I'd say actual Reapers are a lot stronger sources of indoctrination than the tech they leave behind. Their speech alone serves as a source of indoctrination (Redemption novel).

Sisterofshane wrote...

The problem with this theory is that indoctrination is not something that just "happens" with exposure to Reaper tech, because if that was the case then anybody who was on the citadel would be indocrinated.

Citadel is definitely more than it seems, but I'd say it is made to lull beings inside (at least on presidium/citadel tower) into believing that everything is going to be alright/Reapers do not exist.

Modifié par Humakt83, 13 mai 2012 - 08:53 .

[EsterCloat]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

Arrival is canon, its why you are on Earth awaiting trial.

As previously said, Hackett sends a team of commandos in Shepard's stead if you don't buy Arrival so it can't be used as evidence as not all Shepards go through it.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Valentia X wrote...

This actually illustrates one of the reasons I can't buy IT. Shepard is exposed to a rather small amount of Reaper tech- not enough to start even slow burn indoc. The only other option is to start brain melting, which goes against their agenda.

And that's the reason I made this, good sir (or madam). It's simply not plausible for Shepard to always be indoctrinated, which is what I.T. hinges upon.

Modifié par Leonardo the Magnificent, 13 mai 2012 - 08:53 .

[Leafs43]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Can't. Not all Shepards play Arrival. It still happens, however, but Shep is never exposed.

Arrival is canon.  

Arrival is the reason why Shepard is grounded at the beginning of ME3.

[EsterCloat]

Leafs43 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Can't. Not all Shepards play Arrival. It still happens, however, but Shep is never exposed.

Arrival is canon.  

Arrival is the reason why Shepard is grounded at the beginning of ME3.

No. If you didn't do Arrival, Shepard is on Earth because of other reasons, like Cerberus or something.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Humakt83 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Actually, the point was to show that Shep doesn't spend that much time around Reaper tech. At least, not enough to be as indoctrinated as he is for I.T. to be neccesarily plausible.

So how long you think Shepard is lying unconscious after Harbinger beam knocks her/him down?

Also one of the sources of indoctrination can be inside Normandy. EDI is partly Reaper tech and they still have Reaper IFF installed. Maybe there is more, Normandy does seem like a ghost ship: http://social.biowar.../index/11995829 

There is no indication that Husks or Dragon Teeth can affect living things, but we do know that some Reaper tech causes indoctrination. I'd say actual Reapers are a lot stronger sources of indoctrination than the tech they leave behind. Their speech alone serves as a source of indoctrination (Redemption novel).

Edi is based off of Reaper tech, not made out of it. Secondly, for a Reaper to be such a strong source of indoc., it must actively try to indoctrinate you, which drives you insane.

[BatmanTurian]

There are two statements I want to make regarding the firewalker object and time spent on the normandy.

One, the firewalker object is shrunk down into a softball-like size and kept in the captain's quarters on the coffee table (when I first saw it, the thought that went through my head was " omg wtf are you doing, Shepard?") I'm not sure how long it's on there, presumably until you turn it into TIM? Or the rest of the game. I honestly forget.

The other factor that needs to be taken into account is that there is more time going on then when the player actually plays. What we see as instantaneous FTL travel on the galaxy map can take much longer. Therefore, if the object is sitting on Shepard's coffee table and he goes to sleep, there's plenty of time for it to work on him.

Anyway, I'm just saying that we can't just count the time spent on missions. There is downtime on the Normandy where subtle Reaper work is plausible.

[HellbirdIV]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

It's simply not plausible for Shepard to always be indoctrinated, which is what I.T. hinges upon.

Shepard is indoctrinated.

If you don't believe in the IT, Shepard is still under Reaper control in the final scene with The Illusive Man, as the Illusive Man is able to use his own Reaper-based enhancements to control Shepard's body directly, established as being something Reapers are capable of doing to indoctrinated people or people implanted directly with Reaper technology.

The only way that can't mean Shepard is indoctrinated, is if the scene doesn't happen... just like the Indoctrination Theory states.

Heheh.

[EsterCloat]

BatmanTurian wrote...

There are two statements I want to make regarding the firewalker object and time spent on the normandy.

One, the firewalker object is shrunk down into a softball-like size and kept in the captain's quarters on the coffee table (when I first saw it, the thought that went through my head was " omg wtf are you doing, Shepard?") I'm not sure how long it's on there, presumably until you turn it into TIM? Or the rest of the game. I honestly forget.

The other factor that needs to be taken into account is that there is more time going on then when the player actually plays. What we see as instantaneous FTL travel on the galaxy map can take much longer. Therefore, if the object is sitting on Shepard's coffee table and he goes to sleep, there's plenty of time for it to work on him.

Anyway, I'm just saying that we can't just count the time spent on missions. There is downtime on the Normandy where subtle Reaper work is plausible.

The firewalker object is optional therefore not every Shepard would have gotten it.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

BatmanTurian wrote...

There are two statements I want to make regarding the firewalker object and time spent on the normandy.

One, the firewalker object is shrunk down into a softball-like size and kept in the captain's quarters on the coffee table (when I first saw it, the thought that went through my head was " omg wtf are you doing, Shepard?") I'm not sure how long it's on there, presumably until you turn it into TIM? Or the rest of the game. I honestly forget.

The other factor that needs to be taken into account is that there is more time going on then when the player actually plays. What we see as instantaneous FTL travel on the galaxy map can take much longer. Therefore, if the object is sitting on Shepard's coffee table and he goes to sleep, there's plenty of time for it to work on him.

Anyway, I'm just saying that we can't just count the time spent on missions. There is downtime on the Normandy where subtle Reaper work is plausible.

Not all Sheps play Firewalker. This only shows the bare minimum of canonical exposure, i.e. stuff that always happens regardless of DLC or player choice. Since missions are real time, they count as valid sources.

[balance5050]

The thing is, people can become indoctrinated with far less exposure than this.

[Tom Lehrer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

It's simply not plausible for Shepard to always be indoctrinated, which is what I.T. hinges upon.

Shepard is indoctrinated.

If you don't believe in the IT, Shepard is still under Reaper control in the final scene with The Illusive Man, as the Illusive Man is able to use his own Reaper-based enhancements to control Shepard's body directly, established as being something Reapers are capable of doing to indoctrinated people or people implanted directly with Reaper technology.

The only way that can't mean Shepard is indoctrinated, is if the scene doesn't happen... just like the Indoctrination Theory states.

Heheh.

Indoctrination is control over the limbic system. This is the part of the brain the controls our senses and higher thought processes but has nothing to do with motor control. What TIM did at the end of the game was the opposite, Sheaprd and Anderson still had control of their minds but has lost control of their bodies. 

What TIM seems to have done is attack the cerebellum and hindbrain. This is why Sheaprd can still argue with and talk TIM into killing himself.