461 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

It's simply not plausible for Shepard to always be indoctrinated, which is what I.T. hinges upon.

Shepard is indoctrinated.

If you don't believe in the IT, Shepard is still under Reaper control in the final scene with The Illusive Man, as the Illusive Man is able to use his own Reaper-based enhancements to control Shepard's body directly, established as being something Reapers are capable of doing to indoctrinated people or people implanted directly with Reaper technology.

The only way that can't mean Shepard is indoctrinated, is if the scene doesn't happen... just like the Indoctrination Theory states.

Heheh.

That's an assumption. We don't know what T.I.M.'s implants actually do, since it's never explained. It's equally possible that T.I.M. is using a modified version of the signal to control Shepard's nervous system. Doesn't  mean it's true, though.

[BatmanTurian]

@ExterCloat and Leonardo the Magnificent

Fair point. My other point still stands though, I believe. For gameplay purposes, we don't experience the boring day-to-day downtime that Shepard and the crew deal with but it still happens. So there's a lot more time going on in the games than missions and when you control Shepard on the Normandy between missions.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 13 mai 2012 - 09:02 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

balance5050 wrote...

The thing is, people can become indoctrinated with far less exposure than this.

Such as?

[Humakt83]

You may not like to hear it, but the second and third dream alone are enough indication for indoctrination happening. Oily shadows, strange whispers, Reaper noises. Do not discredit them because they are "just" dreams. They were put into the  game for reason, after all, and Bioware has a habit to do some quirky stuff in dreams in their games.

Modifié par Humakt83, 13 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[Tom Lehrer]

balance5050 wrote...

The thing is, people can become indoctrinated with far less exposure than this.

If they wanted to turn Shepards brain into mashed potatoes you would be right.

[Sdrol117]

Humakt83 wrote...

You may not like to hear it, but the second and third dream alone are enough indication for indoctrination happening. Oily shadows, strange whispers, Reaper noises. Do not discredit them because they are "just" dreams.

or Shepard is just having nightmares and the war is catching up to him? omaigodnoway.

[HellbirdIV]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

Indoctrination is control over the limbic system. This is the part of the brain the controls our senses and higher thought processes but has nothing to do with motor control. What TIM did at the end of the game was the opposite, Sheaprd and Anderson still had control of their minds but has lost control of their bodies. 

What TIM seems to have done is attack the cerebellum and hindbrain. This is why Sheaprd can still argue with and talk TIM into killing himself.  

/reads Mass Effect Retribution

Yeah, no. Reapers can control the physical body just fine.

[Gorkan86]

Normandy SR-2 was built using the reaper tech.
And the Citadel is a reapers superstructure.

IT followers not use these facts as a canon. Apparently it does not matter. I just mentioned them. Maybe someone would be interested.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Humakt83 wrote...

You may not like to hear it, but the second and third dream alone are enough indication for indoctrination happening. Oily shadows, strange whispers, Reaper noises. Do not discredit them because they are "just" dreams.

I'm not going to discredit the dreams themselves, but rather that, while you could consider them indoc., there's no basis for them to actually be indoc.

[Humakt83]

Sdrol117 wrote...

or Shepard is just having nightmares and the war is catching up to him? omaigodnoway.

Have you played Baldur's Gate 2? I guess not.

[111987]

Thank you OP for taking the time to actually do all this. I knew people were over-exaggerating when saying Shep has been exposed to Reaper tech for 4 years, and I figured it was less than a day, but it's nice to have a pretty accurate number.

Also as you pointed out, it wasn't 13-14 hours of continuous exposure; it was broken up repeatedly. Shepard really hasn't been exposed that long. This is a pretty huge blow to the indoctrination theory, as the Codex says it takes days or weeks of exposure.

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The thing is, people can become indoctrinated with far less exposure than this.

If they wanted to turn Shepards brain into mashed potatoes you would be right.

"I... don't know"

"Maybe"

also this:

"Go grab that electricity and you can control the reaper!"

Shepard willingly electrocutes himself

"Jump into that giant laser, and your DNA will turn everyone into robot people."

Shepard jumps into the giant laser.

[111987]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

Indoctrination is control over the limbic system. This is the part of the brain the controls our senses and higher thought processes but has nothing to do with motor control. What TIM did at the end of the game was the opposite, Sheaprd and Anderson still had control of their minds but has lost control of their bodies. 

What TIM seems to have done is attack the cerebellum and hindbrain. This is why Sheaprd can still argue with and talk TIM into killing himself.  

/reads Mass Effect Retribution

Yeah, no. Reapers can control the physical body just fine.

No. Only via implants can subjects be controlled directly (physically). However they can have their minds so dominated it amounts to the same thing.

[Sdrol117]

Humakt83 wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

or Shepard is just having nightmares and the war is catching up to him? omaigodnoway.

Have you played Baldur's Gate 2? I guess not.

Too bad this is Mass Effect.

[hoodaticus]

Rombomm wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

I like this, it does show even a minimal playthrough Shepard is still very exposed to Reaper tech.

I think Arrival is the biggest one still, but I'm glad you're taking into consideration a Shepard with even "minimal" playtime still undergoes some heavy exposer over time.

Indocrination takes weeks and months. 13 hours is not "heavy exposure".

Incorrect. Rihanna, an Asari neuroscientist studying Indoctrination for Saren, said it takes" days - maybe a week - to break down the victim's will".

[BatmanTurian]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The thing is, people can become indoctrinated with far less exposure than this.

Such as?

TIM's friend, Ben Hislop, was indoctrinated instantly by touching the object on Shanxi that indoctrinated Saren, TIM, Turian guards and scientists who were studying it and guarding it, and Saren's brother, Desolas in Mass Effect: Evolution . That's one example I can think of. His friend was almost huskified but not completely at first. It seemed to be a slower process with him. However, his mind was the Reapers' from the moment Ben touched the object

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 13 mai 2012 - 09:09 .

[Humakt83]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

I'm not going to discredit the dreams themselves, but rather that, while you could consider them indoc., there's no basis for them to actually be indoc.

Why not? Described effects are there, and the indoctrinated individuals have described the effects (Rachni Queen, Matriarch Benezia, etc.). Grayson in Retribution novel was indoctrinated mostly during his dreams.

Modifié par Humakt83, 13 mai 2012 - 09:07 .

[Tom Lehrer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

Indoctrination is control over the limbic system. This is the part of the brain the controls our senses and higher thought processes but has nothing to do with motor control. What TIM did at the end of the game was the opposite, Sheaprd and Anderson still had control of their minds but has lost control of their bodies. 

What TIM seems to have done is attack the cerebellum and hindbrain. This is why Sheaprd can still argue with and talk TIM into killing himself.  

/reads Mass Effect Retribution

Yeah, no. Reapers can control the physical body just fine.

Grayson was full of Reaper tech

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The thing is, people can become indoctrinated with far less exposure than this.

If they wanted to turn Shepards brain into mashed potatoes you would be right.

"I... don't know"

"Maybe"

also this:

"Go grab that electricity and you can control the reaper!"

Shepard willingly electrocutes himself

"Jump into that giant laser, and your DNA will turn everyone into robot people."

Shepard jumps into the giant laser.

That can just as easily be attributed to blood loss as it can indoc.

[EsterCloat]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

Indoctrination is control over the limbic system. This is the part of the brain the controls our senses and higher thought processes but has nothing to do with motor control. What TIM did at the end of the game was the opposite, Sheaprd and Anderson still had control of their minds but has lost control of their bodies. 

What TIM seems to have done is attack the cerebellum and hindbrain. This is why Sheaprd can still argue with and talk TIM into killing himself.  

/reads Mass Effect Retribution

Yeah, no. Reapers can control the physical body just fine.

When they're shot up so full of nanites they might as well be husks, which Shepard ain't.

balance5050 wrote...

"I... don't know"

"Maybe"

also this:

"Go grab that electricity and you can control the reaper!"

Shepard willingly electrocutes himself

"Jump into that giant laser, and your DNA will turn everyone into robot people."

Shepard jumps into the giant laser.

Or you could choose none of those answers. Also, bad writing doesn't mean indoctrination.

[Gorkan86]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The thing is, people can become indoctrinated with far less exposure than this.

Such as?

If you have a flashlight based on reaper tech and you will direct its light on the people.

[Sdrol117]

Humakt83 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

I'm not going to discredit the dreams themselves, but rather that, while you could consider them indoc., there's no basis for them to actually be indoc.

Why not? Described effects are there, and the indoctrinated individuals have described the effects (Rachni Queen, Matriarch Benezia, etc.). Grayson in Retribution novel was indoctrinated mostly during his dreams.

There is no argument you can make that says it is guaranteed indoctrination. Don't try. 

[HellbirdIV]

Sdrol117 wrote...

There is no argument you can make that says it is guaranteed indoctrination. Don't try. 

Sure I can.

BioWare wrote it into the script.

[balance5050]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The thing is, people can become indoctrinated with far less exposure than this.

If they wanted to turn Shepards brain into mashed potatoes you would be right.

"I... don't know"

"Maybe"

also this:

"Go grab that electricity and you can control the reaper!"

Shepard willingly electrocutes himself

"Jump into that giant laser, and your DNA will turn everyone into robot people."

Shepard jumps into the giant laser.

That can just as easily be attributed to blood loss as it can indoc.

Right, Shepard was losing inredible amounts of blood, he couldn't even stand up. And he passes out from it even.

Then a magic elevator lifts him onto the hull and he's suddenly not bleeding anymore.

So yeah, it could go both ways.

[Sdrol117]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

There is no argument you can make that says it is guaranteed indoctrination. Don't try. 

Sure I can.

BioWare wrote it into the script.

Prove it.