461 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

EsterCloat wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

Indoctrination is control over the limbic system. This is the part of the brain the controls our senses and higher thought processes but has nothing to do with motor control. What TIM did at the end of the game was the opposite, Sheaprd and Anderson still had control of their minds but has lost control of their bodies. 

What TIM seems to have done is attack the cerebellum and hindbrain. This is why Sheaprd can still argue with and talk TIM into killing himself.  

/reads Mass Effect Retribution

Yeah, no. Reapers can control the physical body just fine.

When they're shot up so full of nanites they might as well be husks, which Shepard ain't.

balance5050 wrote...

"I... don't know"

"Maybe"

also this:

"Go grab that electricity and you can control the reaper!"

Shepard willingly electrocutes himself

"Jump into that giant laser, and your DNA will turn everyone into robot people."

Shepard jumps into the giant laser.

Or you could choose none of those answers. Also, bad writing doesn't mean indoctrination.

Right, I chose destroy, woke up on Earth and realized why things seemed so weird.

[HellbirdIV]

Sdrol117 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

There is no argument you can make that says it is guaranteed indoctrination. Don't try. 

Sure I can.

BioWare wrote it into the script.

Prove it. 

k

HellbirdIV wrote...

If
you don't believe in the IT, Shepard is still under Reaper control in
the final scene with The Illusive Man, as the Illusive Man is able to
use his own Reaper-based enhancements to control Shepard's body
directly, established as being something Reapers are capable of doing to
indoctrinated people or people implanted directly with Reaper
technology.

Full circle!

[Tom Lehrer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

There is no argument you can make that says it is guaranteed indoctrination. Don't try. 

Sure I can.

BioWare wrote it into the script.

or we could go with the right answer...BioWare wrote a bad script.

[HellbirdIV]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

or we could go with the right answer...BioWare wrote a bad script.

That doesn't change what's in the script. We have the script they made, not the script we wish they'd make.

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

There is no argument you can make that says it is guaranteed indoctrination. Don't try. 

Sure I can.

BioWare wrote it into the script.

or we could go with the right answer...BioWare wrote a bad script.

If the choice is I.T. or "bad writing", I'll choose the I.T. everytime.

[Stefanomarq]

I'd like to point out that the OP uses a completly arbitrary method.

For example, states that being on the derelict reaper is a "moderate" exposure. Hell, Shepard is inside that thing, it can't get more close than that. "Oh, but it was a dead reaper", but it was still capable of indoctrination, so how can we say if it was moderate or extreme ultra high? I'm not saying that Shepard must have been indoctrinated there, but you can't just come here and say how strong the indoctrination influence upon shepard was based only in how you want it to be.

And most important: ARRIVAL

I don't think other contacts with reaper tech would indoctrinate shepard because it'd indoctrinate all his crew as well. But in Arrival you are ALONE, SIDE BY SIDE WITH A REAPER ARTIFACT THAT JUST INDOCTRINATED A WHOLE FACILITY, RECEVING ITS INFLUENCE FOR TWO STRAIGHT DAYS.

So, if this can't indoctrinate someone, I don't know what can. Now, I don't know if IT is right or wrong or if Shepard was indoctrinated at the end, but I know he should be recieving at least some level of reaper influence after arrival.

"oh, but not all shepards played arrival" WRONG
All shepards were on that base, all shepards were close to that arctifat for two days. You just didn't pay for the DLC, but it happened, IT'S CANON.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

There is no argument you can make that says it is guaranteed indoctrination. Don't try. 

Sure I can.

BioWare wrote it into the script.

or we could go with the right answer...BioWare wrote a bad script.

Thessia seems to be evidence supporting that, as does the intro.

[Leafs43]

Shepard was sitting on a table in a cerberus lab facility for 2 years that for all we know was studying reaper technology.

And we don't know the true origins of his implants.

There is no telling how much of shepard has been exposed.

Modifié par Leafs43, 13 mai 2012 - 09:15 .

[EsterCloat]

balance5050 wrote...

Right, I chose destroy, woke up on Earth and realized why things seemed so weird.

Or you could not choose that option either. Which means you missed my point entirely which doesnt surprise me.

[Tom Lehrer]

balance5050 wrote...

Right, I chose destroy, woke up on Earth and realized why things seemed so weird.

How did you relize anything? Shepards brain got turned to mashed peas by the rapid indoctrienation attempt.

and if Shepards mind is still a little intact Harby is just across the way powering up his laser to finish you off since he cant control you.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 13 mai 2012 - 09:16 .

[Byronic-Knight]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

In ME2, when EDI is built into the SR2 Normandy, she is partially based on Reaper tech. A dead god can still dream.

Her cyber warfare programs are based on Repaer code.  Her physical CPU is 100% human built. 

What about the spiffy new body she obtains at the beginning of 3?

I thought TIM and Cerberus were going full tilt in the "everything must have some sort of Reaper tech in it" direction, since he believed himself able to control it. 

(of course, that would entail everyone on the Normandy being indoctrinated by the end, to some extent at least)

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Stefanomarq wrote...

I'd like to point out that the OP uses a completly arbitrary method.

For example, states that being on the derelict reaper is a "moderate" exposure. Hell, Shepard is inside that thing, it can't get more close than that. "Oh, but it was a dead reaper", but it was still capable of indoctrination, so how can we say if it was moderate or extreme ultra high? I'm not saying that Shepard must have been indoctrinated there, but you can't just come here and say how strong the indoctrination influence upon shepard was based only in how you want it to be.

And most important: ARRIVAL

I don't think other contacts with reaper tech would indoctrinate shepard because it'd indoctrinate all his crew as well. But in Arrival you are ALONE, SIDE BY SIDE WITH A REAPER ARTIFACT THAT JUST INDOCTRINATED A WHOLE FACILITY, RECEVING ITS INFLUENCE FOR TWO STRAIGHT DAYS.

So, if this can't indoctrinate someone, I don't know what can. Now, I don't know if IT is right or wrong or if Shepard was indoctrinated at the end, but I know he should be recieving at least some level of reaper influence after arrival.

"oh, but not all shepards played arrival" WRONG
All shepards were on that base, all shepards were close to that arctifat for two days. You just didn't pay for the DLC, but it happened, IT'S CANON.

You've obviously never played ME3 w/o Arrival. Hackett instead sends in a team of spec. ops to destroy the facility instead. Shep never goes there and is never exposed. And while the dead reaper can perform indoc., it can only perform the average amount you get from a Reaper, which would be moderate exposure, aka the average.

[jijeebo]

Stefanomarq wrote...

I'd like to point out that the OP uses a completly arbitrary method.

For example, states that being on the derelict reaper is a "moderate" exposure. Hell, Shepard is inside that thing, it can't get more close than that. "Oh, but it was a dead reaper", but it was still capable of indoctrination, so how can we say if it was moderate or extreme ultra high? I'm not saying that Shepard must have been indoctrinated there, but you can't just come here and say how strong the indoctrination influence upon shepard was based only in how you want it to be.

OP cited it as moderate because of the time it took for the Cerberus employees to become indoctrinated whilst on it, which it perfectly okay.

And most important: ARRIVAL

I don't think other contacts with reaper tech would indoctrinate shepard because it'd indoctrinate all his crew as well. But in Arrival you are ALONE, SIDE BY SIDE WITH A REAPER ARTIFACT THAT JUST INDOCTRINATED A WHOLE FACILITY, RECEVING ITS INFLUENCE FOR TWO STRAIGHT DAYS.

So, if this can't indoctrinate someone, I don't know what can. Now, I don't know if IT is right or wrong or if Shepard was indoctrinated at the end, but I know he should be recieving at least some level of reaper influence after arrival.

"oh, but not all shepards played arrival" WRONG
All shepards were on that base, all shepards were close to that arctifat for two days. You just didn't pay for the DLC, but it happened, IT'S CANON.

For the last time, not canon.

If you don't play it Hackett sends a squad to do it instead, and you spend no time anywhere near Rho.

EDIT: ninja'd

Modifié par jijeebo, 13 mai 2012 - 09:18 .

[Humakt83]

Sdrol117 wrote...

There is no argument you can make that says it is guaranteed indoctrination. Don't try. 

I already made enough arguments. Now, you can continue to believe into Space Magic or whatever you wish to.

[EsterCloat]

Leafs43 wrote...

Shepard was sitting on a table in a cerberus lab facility for 2 years that for all we know was studying reaper technology.

And we don't know the true origins of his implants.

There is no telling how much of shepard has been exposed.

Miranda was all guilty about wanting and failing to put a control chip in Shepard. I think she'd own up to putting a bunch of Reaper stuff in Shepard if she was having a guilty conscious about a chip.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

EsterCloat wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Shepard was sitting on a table in a cerberus lab facility for 2 years that for all we know was studying reaper technology.

And we don't know the true origins of his implants.

There is no telling how much of shepard has been exposed.

Miranda was all guilty about wanting and failing to put a control chip in Shepard. I think she'd own up to putting a bunch of Reaper stuff in Shepard if she was having a guilty conscious about a chip.

Also, counting the implantation of Reaper tech. in Shep. while under the Lazarus project is one of the biggest straw grasps you can do and has no basis. Secondly, indirect exposure while at project Lazarus do not count as Shep is dead.

[balance5050]

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

[BatmanTurian]

EsterCloat wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Shepard was sitting on a table in a cerberus lab facility for 2 years that for all we know was studying reaper technology.

And we don't know the true origins of his implants.

There is no telling how much of shepard has been exposed.

Miranda was all guilty about wanting and failing to put a control chip in Shepard. I think she'd own up to putting a bunch of Reaper stuff in Shepard if she was having a guilty conscious about a chip.

She may have inadverdantly done it herself without knowing it. She admits to Shepard that the Illusive Man does not tell her everything. Sure there is no control chip, but there is still a nagging doubt hanging over Shepard's innards.

[savionen]

I guess ME1 and ME2 aren't canon either, since you're not required to play them.

[HellbirdIV]

Something I feel needs to be explicitly stated though, is that even though Shepard is indoctrinated that does not make the Indoctrination Theory true.

It's a fan-creation, so by default it's not true. It might be close to what BioWare intended though, which is the general idea behind it.

My point is, you can still disagree with the IT without trying to "prove" that Shepard isn't indoctrinated when the game goes to such lengths to show us Shepard suffering the symptoms of indoctrination.

I remind you, BioWare planned to have a playable section where Shepard is fully indoctrinated and only scrapped it once they couldn't make it work. Given the fact Mass Effect 3 was rushed to the finish line, they didn't really have a solution to all the build-up and just left the build-up in and didn't do anything with it.

Shepard is indoctrinated, but it's okay, because the script forgot that its supposed to be relevant (aside from the previously mentioned Illusive Man scene).

[111987]

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

So are Shepards created in ME3 not indoctrinated?

[Leafs43]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Shepard was sitting on a table in a cerberus lab facility for 2 years that for all we know was studying reaper technology.

And we don't know the true origins of his implants.

There is no telling how much of shepard has been exposed.

Miranda was all guilty about wanting and failing to put a control chip in Shepard. I think she'd own up to putting a bunch of Reaper stuff in Shepard if she was having a guilty conscious about a chip.

Also, counting the implantation of Reaper tech. in Shep. while under the Lazarus project is one of the biggest straw grasps you can do and has no basis. Secondly, indirect exposure while at project Lazarus do not count as Shep is dead.

Reapers reanimate dead bodies all the time.

Death is not plot armor from reaper influence.

[Deltateam Elcor]

For the love of god, Arrival is considered canon by Bioware.

Any fan who got it, knows how significant it is, if anything it is optional canon, you cannot deny that to someone who has played it, unless you want to deny that your entire time playing the game is no longer canon.

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry The Arrival is canon for everyone that played it, you don't get to say what's "canon" and what isn't.

Not canon. Bioware decided this when they implemented an alternative scenarion in ME3.

[BatmanTurian]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Shepard was sitting on a table in a cerberus lab facility for 2 years that for all we know was studying reaper technology.

And we don't know the true origins of his implants.

There is no telling how much of shepard has been exposed.

Miranda was all guilty about wanting and failing to put a control chip in Shepard. I think she'd own up to putting a bunch of Reaper stuff in Shepard if she was having a guilty conscious about a chip.

Also, counting the implantation of Reaper tech. in Shep. while under the Lazarus project is one of the biggest straw grasps you can do and has no basis. Secondly, indirect exposure while at project Lazarus do not count as Shep is dead.

Shep is dead until they bring him back into a coma-state and he wakes up. After that, it's not clear how long Shepard is unconcious until the saboteur forces Miranda to wake Shepard up.
This is what I'm talking about. There are timeskips in the story that you ignore.