461 réponses à ce sujet

[Sisterofshane]

Kaelef wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Harbinger can assume direct control of collectors from 60,000 light years away. It doesn't even matter how close you are, Harbinger literally says "/your mind will be mine/" at the end of Arrival.

This is true. The Reapers use QEC (Quantum Entanglement Communication) such as what Shepard uses to speak to TIM, Anderson, and Hackett. So they can technically indoctrinate at any distance once a link is established.

So there's no reason the whole galaxy shouldn't already be indoctrinated!

Except for the fact that I said there has to be a link established. Implants, a device, whatever. If there is no link, they cannot communicate with the subject at a distance.

But if it's that easy, all it takes is a few seed indoctrinees before you establish an exponential spread of the indoctrinated.

You mean like with TIM in the ending?

In the codex for Indoctrination, it specifically talks about how the indoctrinated person beomes a point of amplification for their signals - hence why Benezia and her followers were indoctrinated to believe that Saren was specifically right, not that the Reapers were.

The difference between an entire galaxy being indoctrinated and only key individuals would be Reaper choice.  They choose to indoctrinate you.

The fact that it can be done through proximity with any Reaper artifact is explained by a QEC link with the Reapers to that artifact.

[BatmanTurian]

Kaelef wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Harbinger can assume direct control of collectors from 60,000 light years away. It doesn't even matter how close you are, Harbinger literally says "/your mind will be mine/" at the end of Arrival.

This is true. The Reapers use QEC (Quantum Entanglement Communication) such as what Shepard uses to speak to TIM, Anderson, and Hackett. So they can technically indoctrinate at any distance once a link is established.

So there's no reason the whole galaxy shouldn't already be indoctrinated!

Except for the fact that I said there has to be a link established. Implants, a device, whatever. If there is no link, they cannot communicate with the subject at a distance.

But if it's that easy, all it takes is a few seed indoctrinees before you establish an exponential spread of the indoctrinated.

Well Kenson was used as a signal amplifier, though Object Rho was as well. My opinion is that they do not have that many links to work with. Harbinger seemed to be in constant communication with the Collectors (and they were mindless anyway) so it was easy for him. Maybe not so easy for other Reapers on other links or organics.

[Gorkan86]

It seems IT supporters like to argue with IT opponents. Even forgetting about what they were arguing yesterday.
The disputes without a goal.

[HellbirdIV]

Kaelef wrote...

People keep throwing in that "if done well" clause, but, despite the ridiculous number of posts and videos on the subject, I've yet to see anyone actually provide an example of an IT ending "done well".  Do you have a link?

It seems straightforward to me.

Shepard wakes up, goes "What the hell was that" and goes back to finish the fight.

Assuming that the Synthesis/Control options are "giving into indoctrination" (the main thing with the common IT I disagree with) then Shepard "wakes up" turning on her squadmates, possibly forcing you to kill / watch as some of them are killed by Shepard before Shepard fights back and shoots herself in the head, allowing the rest of the squad to finish the fight in her stead.

... Yay?

Edit:

Maybe a high Paragon/Renegade score lets you choose the suicide option, but if you don't have enough score for those options, Shepard kills some of your squadmates before being killed herself. Since the game already does plenty of auto-dialogue that makes you "influence" Shepard rather than "control" her, it would be interesting to see indoctrinated conversation options.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 13 mai 2012 - 09:52 .

[EsterCloat]

HellbirdIV wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

A personal belief does not constitute a real world fact.

I'm now using this quote to justify my belief in the Indoctrination Theory.

Whatever floats your boat. The fact you took it out of context isnt all that surprising.

You're pretty bad at this.

Personal belief does not constitute facts - yet you assume that your beliefs about indoctrination are 100% accurate.

Then you make personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you.

You should probably just leave and not read the BSN forums for a few hours, 'cause you're taking this thread way too seriously and personally.

Never said it was impossible, just that a lot of things relating to indoctrination would have to be stretched to accomodate IT. I've yet to see any concrete proof for IT that couldn't be explained by other more likely scenarios.

Not sure who I personally attacked, unless you took my response as hostile for some reason. And as an attack. In which case it wasn't my intention.

[balance5050]

Kaelef wrote...

Zombie Inc 91 wrote...


I don't think it would be horrible. If done well.

People keep throwing in that "if done well" clause, but, despite the ridiculous number of posts and videos on the subject, I've yet to see anyone actually provide an example of an IT ending "done well".  Do you have a link?

The EC this summer might help with that.

[BatmanTurian]

Gorkan86 wrote...

It seems IT supporters like to argue with IT opponents. Even forgetting about what they were arguing yesterday.
The disputes without a goal.

I try to debate and discuss rather than argue. Arguing is aggressive and unnecessary.

[Leafs43]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Harbinger can assume direct control of collectors from 60,000 light years away. It doesn't even matter how close you are, Harbinger literally says "/your mind will be mine/" at the end of Arrival.

He controls them through implants. Your point is invalid. Indoctrination cannot be projected anywhere. Otherwise the Reapers could just control everyone.

Shepard has implants.

The reapers controlled the geth without them installing reaper tech because the reapers simply hacked into the geth.  There is an entire mission showing this to you.



All Harbinger had to do was hack shpard's implants and harbinger has a way in.

Shepard's implants are not Reaper implants...they are not self-replicating Reaper nanides...

Um the Geth uploaded the Reaper code...

No.

Inside the geth consensus it was a reaper virus attempting to hack all of the consensus.  Even if it was uploaded by geth heretics, it is of reaper origin hacking into geth based software.  And geth based software isn't reaper tech.


That means the reapers can try and hack shepard's implants even if they are not reaper tech.

[BigGuy28]

Gorkan86 wrote...

It seems IT supporters like to argue with IT opponents. Even forgetting about what they were arguing yesterday.
The disputes without a goal.

Didn't you know? IT believers are freedom fighters fighting for the truth. I learned that the other night.

[RedTail F22]

If your argument was that Shepard hasn't been exposed enough for indoctrination than the best argument you Could make would involve the maximum amount of exposure Shepard could experience.
I
Because it really doesn't matter whether or not someone has played something like Arrival seeing how Bioware designs the game assuming everyone has. Youre still on trial at the beginning of ME3 even if you didnt play it. Just my opinion though.

[Kaelef]

balance5050 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Zombie Inc 91 wrote...


I don't think it would be horrible. If done well.

People keep throwing in that "if done well" clause, but, despite the ridiculous number of posts and videos on the subject, I've yet to see anyone actually provide an example of an IT ending "done well".  Do you have a link?

The EC this summer might help with that.

That's an "I don't know" answer.  Doesn't help.

[Gorkan86]

RedTail F22 wrote...

If your argument was that Shepard hasn't been exposed enough for indoctrination than the best argument you Could make would involve the maximum amount of exposure Shepard could experience.
I
Because it really doesn't matter whether or not someone has played something like Arrival seeing how Bioware designs the game assuming everyone has. Youre still on trial at the beginning of ME3 even if you didnt play it. Just my opinion though.

Yes he is on trial. Nobody disputes with that.
Just another reason.

[BatmanTurian]

RedTail F22 wrote...

If your argument was that Shepard hasn't been exposed enough for indoctrination than the best argument you Could make would involve the maximum amount of exposure Shepard could experience.
I
Because it really doesn't matter whether or not someone has played something like Arrival seeing how Bioware designs the game assuming everyone has. Youre still on trial at the beginning of ME3 even if you didnt play it. Just my opinion though.

The problem with OP's post is that he doesn't account for the timeskips in the story. We don't actually know how much time Shepard really has spent around Reapertech. We can conclusively apply the question to missions, the Citadel, and Omega. But missions are only a fraction of the time that actually occurred in the series.

[Kaelef]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

People keep throwing in that "if done well" clause, but, despite the ridiculous number of posts and videos on the subject, I've yet to see anyone actually provide an example of an IT ending "done well".  Do you have a link?

It seems straightforward to me.

Shepard wakes up, goes "What the hell was that" and goes back to finish the fight.

Assuming that the Synthesis/Control options are "giving into indoctrination" (the main thing with the common IT I disagree with) then Shepard "wakes up" turning on her squadmates, possibly forcing you to kill / watch as some of them are killed by Shepard before Shepard fights back and shoots herself in the head, allowing the rest of the squad to finish the fight in her stead.

... Yay?

Edit:

Maybe a high Paragon/Renegade score lets you choose the suicide option, but if you don't have enough score for those options, Shepard kills some of your squadmates before being killed herself. Since the game already does plenty of auto-dialogue that makes you "influence" Shepard rather than "control" her, it would be interesting to see indoctrinated conversation options.

Wow.  That's just horrible.  For all the arguing that IT is not just a cliche "it was just a dream" ending, that's exactly what you've delivered.  I hope that's not an example of it "done right".

[111987]

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Harbinger can assume direct control of collectors from 60,000 light years away. It doesn't even matter how close you are, Harbinger literally says "/your mind will be mine/" at the end of Arrival.

He controls them through implants. Your point is invalid. Indoctrination cannot be projected anywhere. Otherwise the Reapers could just control everyone.

Shepard has implants.

The reapers controlled the geth without them installing reaper tech because the reapers simply hacked into the geth.  There is an entire mission showing this to you.



All Harbinger had to do was hack shpard's implants and harbinger has a way in.

Shepard's implants are not Reaper implants...they are not self-replicating Reaper nanides...

Um the Geth uploaded the Reaper code...

No.

Inside the geth consensus it was a reaper virus attempting to hack all of the consensus.  Even if it was uploaded by geth heretics, it is of reaper origin hacking into geth based software.  And geth based software isn't reaper tech.


That means the reapers can try and hack shepard's implants even if they are not reaper tech.

Yes, good point. So theoretically it is possible for a Reaper to hack Shepard's implants. Theoretically a Geth could, or any AI (as seen in Overlord). This has nothing to do with indoctrination though.

[Zombie Inc 91]

balance5050 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Zombie Inc 91 wrote...


I don't think it would be horrible. If done well.

People keep throwing in that "if done well" clause, but, despite the ridiculous number of posts and videos on the subject, I've yet to see anyone actually provide an example of an IT ending "done well".  Do you have a link?

The EC this summer might help with that.

How would I link to an ending that doesn't exist? An IT ending done well would be the EC if Bioware do it. The same as any ending done well would be.

All those posts and videos do is give a premise. It's up to Bioware if they use it or not and if they do, how they do it. And how they do it is likely much more important than whatever idea they go with.

[HellbirdIV]

Kaelef wrote...

Wow.  That's just horrible.  For all the arguing that IT is not just a cliche "it was just a dream" ending, that's exactly what you've delivered.  I hope that's not an example of it "done right".

The whole point of IT is that everything after Harbinger's beam is a "dream". Anything else and it's not IT anymore. And it's still about a trillion times better than the current ending taken at face value.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 13 mai 2012 - 10:01 .

[balance5050]

Kaelef wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Zombie Inc 91 wrote...


I don't think it would be horrible. If done well.

People keep throwing in that "if done well" clause, but, despite the ridiculous number of posts and videos on the subject, I've yet to see anyone actually provide an example of an IT ending "done well".  Do you have a link?

The EC this summer might help with that.

That's an "I don't know" answer.  Doesn't help.

Oh, I kinda thought this was an open forum for discussion. 
My fault.

[Leafs43]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Harbinger can assume direct control of collectors from 60,000 light years away. It doesn't even matter how close you are, Harbinger literally says "/your mind will be mine/" at the end of Arrival.

He controls them through implants. Your point is invalid. Indoctrination cannot be projected anywhere. Otherwise the Reapers could just control everyone.

Shepard has implants.

The reapers controlled the geth without them installing reaper tech because the reapers simply hacked into the geth.  There is an entire mission showing this to you.



All Harbinger had to do was hack shpard's implants and harbinger has a way in.

Shepard's implants are not Reaper implants...they are not self-replicating Reaper nanides...

Um the Geth uploaded the Reaper code...

No.

Inside the geth consensus it was a reaper virus attempting to hack all of the consensus.  Even if it was uploaded by geth heretics, it is of reaper origin hacking into geth based software.  And geth based software isn't reaper tech.


That means the reapers can try and hack shepard's implants even if they are not reaper tech.

Yes, good point. So theoretically it is possible for a Reaper to hack Shepard's implants. Theoretically a Geth could, or any AI (as seen in Overlord). This has nothing to do with indoctrination though.

It has plenty to do with indoctrination.


Shepard's implants could propogate the indoctrination signal directly inside of Shepard's own body if they are hacked by the reapers.


It would be giving Harbinger a direct line to Shepard's brain.

Modifié par Leafs43, 13 mai 2012 - 10:02 .

[balance5050]

Zombie Inc 91 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Zombie Inc 91 wrote...


I don't think it would be horrible. If done well.

People keep throwing in that "if done well" clause, but, despite the ridiculous number of posts and videos on the subject, I've yet to see anyone actually provide an example of an IT ending "done well".  Do you have a link?

The EC this summer might help with that.

How would I link to an ending that doesn't exist? An IT ending done well would be the EC if Bioware do it. The same as any ending done well would be.

All those posts and videos do is give a premise. It's up to Bioware if they use it or not and if they do, how they do it. And how they do it is likely much more important than whatever idea they go with.

Almost like inception.

[BatmanTurian]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Harbinger can assume direct control of collectors from 60,000 light years away. It doesn't even matter how close you are, Harbinger literally says "/your mind will be mine/" at the end of Arrival.

He controls them through implants. Your point is invalid. Indoctrination cannot be projected anywhere. Otherwise the Reapers could just control everyone.

Shepard has implants.

The reapers controlled the geth without them installing reaper tech because the reapers simply hacked into the geth.  There is an entire mission showing this to you.



All Harbinger had to do was hack shpard's implants and harbinger has a way in.

Shepard's implants are not Reaper implants...they are not self-replicating Reaper nanides...

Um the Geth uploaded the Reaper code...

No.

Inside the geth consensus it was a reaper virus attempting to hack all of the consensus.  Even if it was uploaded by geth heretics, it is of reaper origin hacking into geth based software.  And geth based software isn't reaper tech.


That means the reapers can try and hack shepard's implants even if they are not reaper tech.

Yes, good point. So theoretically it is possible for a Reaper to hack Shepard's implants. Theoretically a Geth could, or any AI (as seen in Overlord). This has nothing to do with indoctrination though.

Well, organic indoctrination. Synthetic indoctrination is obvious via the example of the Heretics, not that I think a Reaper has indoctrinated Shepard through hacking his implants. I'll admit it's a bit absurd but tentitively plausible. However, also unlikely.

[111987]

Leafs43 wrote...

It has plenty to do with indoctrination.


Shepard's implants could propogate the indoctrination signal directly inside of Shepard's own body if they are hacked by the reapers.

You just made that up. How do you know Shepards implants could broadcast the Reaper signal?

Also, proximity would be required for the hacking anyways (assuming Shep's implants aren't safeguarded against such things), so by that point you might as well just shoot Shep.

[balance5050]

Oh YEAH! The Reaper IFF was never uninstalled yo!

[Kaelef]

Zombie Inc 91 wrote...


How would I link to an ending that doesn't exist? An IT ending done well would be the EC if Bioware do it. The same as any ending done well would be.

By this logic, the current ending is fine.



If IT provides a means for a better ending than what we currently have, then it should be trivial to provide a brief summary of how an ending "done well" would work.  Individuals have put in countless hours creating videos and dissertations on the validity of IT -- there's no reason they shouldn't be able to provide a treatment for an example of a good IT ending.

All the effort seems to be focused on erasing the ending as it currently stands with little if any thought about how you give the story a proper ending after you've opened the "it was only a dream" can of worms.

Modifié par Kaelef, 13 mai 2012 - 10:07 .

[Leafs43]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

It has plenty to do with indoctrination.


Shepard's implants could propogate the indoctrination signal directly inside of Shepard's own body if they are hacked by the reapers.

You just made that up. How do you know Shepards implants could broadcast the Reaper signal?

Also, proximity would be required for the hacking anyways (assuming Shep's implants aren't safeguarded against such things), so by that point you might as well just shoot Shep.

Every instance of the reapers takign control of something it becomes a piece that broadcasts reaper signals.  

It's the same underlying principle how husks become indoctrination beacons.


And because it would be really only focused on Shepard, it can be exponentially weaker than other reaper tech and could go undetected.  Even the Thessia VI said indoctrination can be so subtle that the protheans couldn't detect it.

Modifié par Leafs43, 13 mai 2012 - 10:09 .