461 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

BatmanTurian wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Oh YEAH! The Reaper IFF was never uninstalled yo!

Wasn't the IFF just software though? it's in a physical object but I believe it's only software.

But wasn't EDI using all her strength to keep it from taking over other systems on the Normandy, and if it is indeed that advanced, could the siganl be altered to also transmit indoctrination waves?

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

KDD-0063 wrote...

I'd hand it to the implants TIM used to enhance Shepard when rebuilding him/her, if BW are going with IT. After all, exact details of the implants are unknown and could involve reaper tech, and other "strong willed" characters like Saren and TIM himself are indoctrinated slowly in the same way.

EDIT: Poor wording

That'd be a complete abuse of their position as the writer's, though. I mean, they're going back and shaping the plot just to implement and idea they failed to properly form in the first place or to squeeze a new one (that they didn't come up with). It's shameful.

Modifié par Leonardo the Magnificent, 13 mai 2012 - 10:31 .

[Agugaboo]

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

It has plenty to do with indoctrination.


Shepard's implants could propogate the indoctrination signal directly inside of Shepard's own body if they are hacked by the reapers.

You just made that up. How do you know Shepards implants could broadcast the Reaper signal?

Also, proximity would be required for the hacking anyways (assuming Shep's implants aren't safeguarded against such things), so by that point you might as well just shoot Shep.

Every instance of the reapers takign control of something it becomes a piece that broadcasts reaper signals.  

It's the same underlying principle how husks become indoctrination beacons.

Yes, because they are implanted with the self-replicating Reaper nanides. Totally different situation.

So I guess nanides can be airborne? Or what?

"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk 

The orb indoctrinates, than the indoctrinated implant themselves. Simple.

"orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks"

You don't need to lie to kick it bro.

oh that's what happened I never understood it before:whistle: I had that thing in my cabin and pinged it after every mission. Compulsive Shepard is almost certainly overexposed.

[111987]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Great, the thread has been completely derailed. And if the Citadel does indoctrinate, then that means the practically every major character has become indoctrinated to an extent.

Sorry, I shall stop.

What other points did you want to bring up?

Well, as I never finished fleshing out the idea that since you can bring Garrus on almost every mission where you are exposed to Reaper tech, it's just as probable that he's indoctrinated as well. Not a part of the canon idea, but rather a different take on things.

Definitely possible. Shepard isn't the only one who has been exposed to Reaper tech.

Liara has also been around Prothean dig sites for basically her whole life, so she could have had inadverdant exposure to Reaper tech that she thought was Prothean.

[The Mercenary55]

your logic is already flawed since you have to take garrus with you and skip all side quests, dont belittle an idea that others enjoy

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

The Mercenary55 wrote...

your logic is already flawed since you have to take garrus with you and skip all side quests, dont belittle an idea that others enjoy

Missing the point. I.T. covers every possible scenario Shep is in. This scenario renders the I.T. implausible due to the extremely limited exposure this shep incurs.

[Gorkan86]

Let me explain something. I do not believe that the Citadel could indoctrinate. But Citadel is the reaper tech. And we know that any reaper tech emit indoc waves.

But it turns out that not all reaper tech can indoctrinate. So, how is it can be possible?

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

The Mercenary55 wrote...

your logic is already flawed since you have to take garrus with you and skip all side quests, dont belittle an idea that others enjoy

Missing the point. I.T has to cover every possible scenario Shep is in. This scenario renders the I.T. implausible due to the extremely limited exposure this shep incurs.

[Zombie Inc 91]

jijeebo wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

Or beforehand... Would've made Sovereigns job a lot easier if the Citadel could just indoctrinate everyone on board to allow him access.

Yeah, even though it's reaper made, we pretty much see it not indoctrinating people. If it did, wouldn't anyone living there go completely insane eons before the reapers were ready to invade (going by what we see on Virmire, etc)?

Besides, we already have Star Kid. We don't need anything else to ruin Sovereign's point back in ME1.

EDIT: To Gorkan:
Maybe it's something the reapers actively design into their stuff. If everything could do it, surely galactic society would collapse long before it was ready for harvesting.

Modifié par Zombie Inc 91, 13 mai 2012 - 10:37 .

[balance5050]

Agugaboo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

It has plenty to do with indoctrination.


Shepard's implants could propogate the indoctrination signal directly inside of Shepard's own body if they are hacked by the reapers.

You just made that up. How do you know Shepards implants could broadcast the Reaper signal?

Also, proximity would be required for the hacking anyways (assuming Shep's implants aren't safeguarded against such things), so by that point you might as well just shoot Shep.

Every instance of the reapers takign control of something it becomes a piece that broadcasts reaper signals.  

It's the same underlying principle how husks become indoctrination beacons.

Yes, because they are implanted with the self-replicating Reaper nanides. Totally different situation.

So I guess nanides can be airborne? Or what?

"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk 

The orb indoctrinates, than the indoctrinated implant themselves. Simple.

"orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks"

You don't need to lie to kick it bro.

oh that's what happened I never understood it before:whistle: I had that thing in my cabin and pinged it after every mission. Compulsive Shepard is almost certainly overexposed.

It makes me wonder how many "Prothean" artifacts were actually "Reaper" artifacts.

[Agugaboo]

Agugaboo wrote...

The way I understand it, Shepard undergoes indoctrination at the end of ME3, not over the whole game. He has brushes with it that allow the reapers into his mind, hence the dreams and hallucination, but it's not complete. Like the Cerberus team on the dead reaper that were aware of their odd dreams before they were fully indoctrinated. He's had plenty of exposure for that.
At the end of ME3 he is unconscious on the ground yards from the reaper conduit, with harbinger over him, and in the Shepard lives scene, he is wrapped in the same cables the reapers were using on Legion. Or he makes it onto the citadel heavily weakened, and the TIM thing actually happens, the reapers use TIM as an amplifier and are able to control him physically. Then he passes out completely. Everything after the elevator is dream, with the exception of the breathe scene.

The squadmates, we don't know where they are at the end, according to IT, for all we know they are in the same position. Or I have this other theory;

[SPECULATION]
1.  you are knocked out in london in the indoctrination attempt coma.
2. but your squadmates make it to the beam
3. they can't go back for you but can only move forward
4. if your EMS are high enough, they are able to position/activate the crucible without you
5. what does the crucible do? (the question of all questions):
it interrupts the indoctrination signal and makes it possible for anyone to escape it of their own free will as long as it isn't destroyed by the reapers.
6. shepard and if you did loyalty missions, etc. your squadmates ALSO escape indoctrination.
7. %of
reaper forces are undoctrinated and allowed to die themselves with high
enough ems (strength of fleet defending the crucible against the
reapers)
8. low ems either you die from
indoctrination because your squadies failed, or it lasted long enough to
save you but not them, epic gut wrenching terribad squadmate endboss
battle ensues. Liara is a banchee. Garrus is a Saren husk. etc. Or whoever you take on the mission.
[/SPECULATION]

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Let me explain something. I do not believe that the Citadel could indoctrinate. But Citadel is the reaper tech. And we know that any reaper tech emit indoc waves.

But it turns out that not all reaper tech can indoctrinate. So, how is it can be possible?

Well, the Citadel isn't necessarily Reaper tech so much as it was just built by the Reapers, so it's possible that it wasn't designed with the indoctrinating influence. That's the only explanation I can think of, anyway.

[Agugaboo]

balance5050 wrote...

Agugaboo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

It has plenty to do with indoctrination.


Shepard's implants could propogate the indoctrination signal directly inside of Shepard's own body if they are hacked by the reapers.

You just made that up. How do you know Shepards implants could broadcast the Reaper signal?

Also, proximity would be required for the hacking anyways (assuming Shep's implants aren't safeguarded against such things), so by that point you might as well just shoot Shep.

Every instance of the reapers takign control of something it becomes a piece that broadcasts reaper signals.  

It's the same underlying principle how husks become indoctrination beacons.

Yes, because they are implanted with the self-replicating Reaper nanides. Totally different situation.

So I guess nanides can be airborne? Or what?

"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk 

The orb indoctrinates, than the indoctrinated implant themselves. Simple.

"orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks"

You don't need to lie to kick it bro.

oh that's what happened I never understood it before:whistle: I had that thing in my cabin and pinged it after every mission. Compulsive Shepard is almost certainly overexposed.

It makes me wonder how many "Prothean" artifacts were actually "Reaper" artifacts.

are you referring to the theory the Crucible is either a reaper decoy or for their own nefarious purposes and all this time we are building it for them?

[jijeebo]

Zombie Inc 91 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

Or beforehand... Would've made Sovereigns job a lot easier if the Citadel could just indoctrinate everyone on board to allow him access.

Yeah, even though it's reaper made, we pretty much see it not indoctrinating people. If it did, wouldn't anyone living there go completely insane eons before the reapers were ready to invade (going by what we see on Virmire, etc)?

Besides, we already have Star Kid. We don't need anything else to ruin Sovereign's point back in ME1.

Poor Sovereigns had it rough since he kicked the bucket.

[Sisterofshane]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Great, the thread has been completely derailed. And if the Citadel does indoctrinate, then that means the practically every major character has become indoctrinated to an extent.

I already said this back on the second page, and several other subsequent times.  It's not the amount of exposure to Reapers/artifacts that creates indoctrination - it's proxmity that allows a person to become idoctrinated.

Take Object Rho as the Prime Example - the burst of energy you see?  That's Harbinger purposefully creating a connection to the person in question (on this it happened to be Shepard) so that he can begin the process of indoctrination.  Through out the battle that ensues, Harbinger talks directly to Shepard, and Shepard is capable of resisting mentally to Harbinger's advances. 

The books established that indoctrination becomes easier should mental barriers be broken down (hence why TIM kept Paul Grayson hopped up on Red Sand). It is also the reason why the Reapers use things such as EMF's when attempting Indoctrination - they want to break down any psychological resistances the individual may have.

Example, the Farmers/Powell on Eden Prime talking about the horrible noise emitted from Sovereign - they were rendered almost unable to think.  If we assumed this meant they were indoctrinated, then why didn't we ever hear about any of them again, coming back as servents of the reapers?  Because they weren't actually indoctrinated - they were just subjected to a form of psychological conditioning.

Rana Thonoptis is another great example of this.  When we meet her in ME1, she has been exposed to all of the tech of indoctrination, but has not been indoctrinated.  It takes YEARS after the intial exposure for her mental capacities to become worn down enough that she begins to accept the Reaper doctrine as her own.  The moment she accepted that she needed to blow up those Asari officials was probably around the same time she had been actually indoctrinated.

This does not mean that everyone needs the same amount of "exposure" to become indoctrinated (IE, Garrus and Shepard encountering the same artifacts for the same duration would not necessarily mean that both would become indoctrinated at the same time).  No two person's will power can be broken in quite the same manner.

It makes sense, then (narratively speaking) that Shepard has not been indoctrinated until ME3.  We are shown Shepard to have a very fragile mental state (having nightmares, being worn down to a noticeable state of exhaustion).  Before this, Shepard has been shown to be a very strong minded person (several characters comment on this, such as Liara in ME1 with the mind-meld, and Dr. Chakwas in ME2 talking about how even death could not change a person like Shepard).

[BatmanTurian]

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

The theory for the Citadel indoctrination is that it's passive and pacifies the populace within. This accounts for the Council being constantly skeptical about the Reapers and the people on the Citadel seeming to be less affected by the war. It would also make it easy for the Reapers to swarm in on a dime, like they did in the cycles before the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, and take over. 

Some say the populace acting like the war isn't happening could just be the effect of being far from the war and feeling detached and I believe that is a valid counter-argument.

[Tom Lehrer]

balance5050 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Oh YEAH! The Reaper IFF was never uninstalled yo!

Wasn't the IFF just software though? it's in a physical object but I believe it's only software.

But wasn't EDI using all her strength to keep it from taking over other systems on the Normandy, and if it is indeed that advanced, could the siganl be altered to also transmit indoctrination waves?

She had to stop a virus hidden within the IFF data not the actual IFF and did so before Sheaprd even got back from the mystery mission. Even had the virus run wild the only way it would beable to transmit indoctrination would be if the Normandy had hardware capable of it and their is nothing to suggest it does.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Great, the thread has been completely derailed. And if the Citadel does indoctrinate, then that means the practically every major character has become indoctrinated to an extent.

I already said this back on the second page, and several other subsequent times.  It's not the amount of exposure to Reapers/artifacts that creates indoctrination - it's proxmity that allows a person to become idoctrinated.

Take Object Rho as the Prime Example - the burst of energy you see?  That's Harbinger purposefully creating a connection to the person in question (on this it happened to be Shepard) so that he can begin the process of indoctrination.  Through out the battle that ensues, Harbinger talks directly to Shepard, and Shepard is capable of resisting mentally to Harbinger's advances. 

The books established that indoctrination becomes easier should mental barriers be broken down (hence why TIM kept Paul Grayson hopped up on Red Sand). It is also the reason why the Reapers use things such as EMF's when attempting Indoctrination - they want to break down any psychological resistances the individual may have.

Example, the Farmers/Powell on Eden Prime talking about the horrible noise emitted from Sovereign - they were rendered almost unable to think.  If we assumed this meant they were indoctrinated, then why didn't we ever hear about any of them again, coming back as servents of the reapers?  Because they weren't actually indoctrinated - they were just subjected to a form of psychological conditioning.

Rana Thonoptis is another great example of this.  When we meet her in ME1, she has been exposed to all of the tech of indoctrination, but has not been indoctrinated.  It takes YEARS after the intial exposure for her mental capacities to become worn down enough that she begins to accept the Reaper doctrine as her own.  The moment she accepted that she needed to blow up those Asari officials was probably around the same time she had been actually indoctrinated.

This does not mean that everyone needs the same amount of "exposure" to become indoctrinated (IE, Garrus and Shepard encountering the same artifacts for the same duration would not necessarily mean that both would become indoctrinated at the same time).  No two person's will power can be broken in quite the same manner.

It makes sense, then (narratively speaking) that Shepard has not been indoctrinated until ME3.  We are shown Shepard to have a very fragile mental state (having nightmares, being worn down to a noticeable state of exhaustion).  Before this, Shepard has been shown to be a very strong minded person (several characters comment on this, such as Liara in ME1 with the mind-meld, and Dr. Chakwas in ME2 talking about how even death could not change a person like Shepard).

That's possible, with the exception of Arrival, of course, although I don't think that's how indoc. necessarily works. True, weak minded individual do succumb easier, but that doesn't mean all you have to is have a break down to then fall under indoc.'s sway. Interesting point, nonetheless.

[balance5050]

Agugaboo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Agugaboo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

It has plenty to do with indoctrination.


Shepard's implants could propogate the indoctrination signal directly inside of Shepard's own body if they are hacked by the reapers.

You just made that up. How do you know Shepards implants could broadcast the Reaper signal?

Also, proximity would be required for the hacking anyways (assuming Shep's implants aren't safeguarded against such things), so by that point you might as well just shoot Shep.

Every instance of the reapers takign control of something it becomes a piece that broadcasts reaper signals.  

It's the same underlying principle how husks become indoctrination beacons.

Yes, because they are implanted with the self-replicating Reaper nanides. Totally different situation.

So I guess nanides can be airborne? Or what?

"An excavation team in the Minos Wasteland on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Husk 

The orb indoctrinates, than the indoctrinated implant themselves. Simple.

"orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks"

You don't need to lie to kick it bro.

oh that's what happened I never understood it before:whistle: I had that thing in my cabin and pinged it after every mission. Compulsive Shepard is almost certainly overexposed.

It makes me wonder how many "Prothean" artifacts were actually "Reaper" artifacts.

are you referring to the theory the Crucible is either a reaper decoy or for their own nefarious purposes and all this time we are building it for them?

I'm referring to just about anything that we think is of Prothean Origin, The VI's are obviously Prothean but what about the random stuff that you find in the sidequests and stuff.

[Helmschmied]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

The theory for the Citadel indoctrination is that it's passive and pacifies the populace within. This accounts for the Council being constantly skeptical about the Reapers and the people on the Citadel seeming to be less affected by the war. It would also make it easy for the Reapers to swarm in on a dime, like they did in the cycles before the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, and take over.

That could make sense, I guess, however, but why didn't the Reapers just build the Citadel as a giant indoctrination device in the first place?

Modifié par Helmschmied, 13 mai 2012 - 10:53 .

[BatmanTurian]

Helmschmied wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

The theory for the Citadel indoctrination is that it's passive and pacifies the populace within. This accounts for the Council being constantly skeptical about the Reapers and the people on the Citadel seeming to be less affected by the war. It would also make it easy for the Reapers to swarm in on a dime, like they did in the cycles before the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, and take over.

That could make sense, I guess, however, but why didn't the Reapers just build the Citadel as a giant indoctrination device in the first place?

Because they want galactic civilization to flourish before cutting it down. If the Citadel was constantly, hard-core indoctrinating, the inhabitants would become gibbering, violent idiots, like husks except alive.

[Agugaboo]

Helmschmied wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

The theory for the Citadel indoctrination is that it's passive and pacifies the populace within. This accounts for the Council being constantly skeptical about the Reapers and the people on the Citadel seeming to be less affected by the war. It would also make it easy for the Reapers to swarm in on a dime, like they did in the cycles before the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, and take over.

That could make sense, I guess, however, it still doesn't answer the question why the Reapers didn't just build the Citadel as a giant indoctrination device in the first place.

Full on indoctrination turns sentient beings into mindless husks which would be unlikely to fill the galaxy with yummy organics worthy of ascension.

Basically the reapers are crunchy. They need to know their chicken has had a good life and learned self-reliance before they eat it.

That was a joke.

edit: ninjad by batman

Modifié par Agugaboo, 13 mai 2012 - 10:57 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Helmschmied wrote...

There is no reason why the citadel wouldn't be able to indoctrinate someone.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why the Reapers didn't just indoctrinate everybody aboard the Citadel when they hit the Galaxy.

The theory for the Citadel indoctrination is that it's passive and pacifies the populace within. This accounts for the Council being constantly skeptical about the Reapers and the people on the Citadel seeming to be less affected by the war. It would also make it easy for the Reapers to swarm in on a dime, like they did in the cycles before the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, and take over.

That could make sense, I guess, however, but why didn't the Reapers just build the Citadel as a giant indoctrination device in the first place?

Because they want galactic civilization to flourish before cutting it down. If the Citadel was constantly, hard-core indoctrinating, the inhabitants would become gibbering, violent idiots, like husks except alive.

If the Citadel did pacify, though, why can you fight through it to the tower in ME1? Sovvie's in charge the whole time, so it's reasonable to assume that he could cause it to pacify you, is it not?

[KDD-0063]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

I'd hand it to the implants TIM used to enhance Shepard when rebuilding him/her, if BW are going with IT. After all, exact details of the implants are unknown and could involve reaper tech, and other "strong willed" characters like Saren and TIM himself are indoctrinated slowly in the same way.

EDIT: Poor wording

That'd be a complete abuse of their position as the writer's, though. I mean, they're going back and shaping the plot just to implement and idea they failed to properly form in the first place or to squeeze a new one (that they didn't come up with). It's shameful.

True, but what is the alternative?
I wouldn't say I'll be fully contended because the damage is already done, but I'd say it is the most smooth way out for them.

[garrusfan1]

in arival they have him knocked out and could be doing anything to have indoctrination take that is where I always thought it would happen since it was two days unconsisous next to a reaper artifact