111 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

Edit: here’s my close-to final conclusion from this thread:

I really just can’t make the numbers make any sense.  What I think I’m going to end up doing is using the minimum viable opposing force number of galactic alliance ships vs. the 2000 + 20 000 reapers.

We could assume that for the battle for Earth, there are some 25% of Reaper forces up in space initially, maybe 33% total if they call up reinforcements (there were obviously still lots on Earth itself, and probably some that never made it to Sol for whatever reason).

To maintain parity with 500 + 5000 reapers, the total fleets should number 15 000 + 10 000, and since there’s < 100 dreadnoughts, the figures come closer to Ds + 35 000. We’ll give some bonus points for the carriers, more fighters, and some random vessels so maybe 30 000. This is for parity.

Since we only need to survive a while, 1-2 h, we can drop from parity to something  like 2/3. In conclusion, the allied fleets should have around 15 - 20 000 non-fighter ships to have any chance of successfully defending the Crucible against the reapers. (Total number, divided between the species.)

Does this sound like a reasonable proposition?


Original post as follows:

So, I was puzzling this out. And yes, this is before the Reaper war.

Dreadnoughts: 9 known +1 possibly being built. Complement ~7500

Carriers: 3 recorded, +1 possible. Complement ~6000 + flight crews

Here’s where it gets interesting. Cruisers are the backbone of the fleets, and we know there’s a SSV Perugia. Now, given that Perugia would probably at best be the 5th city Italians would use, and the relative prominence of China/India/Africa/South America will be higher, it seems reasonable to assume that the name Perugia would at the earliest be given to around the 1000th craft.

Edit: injecting from a later thought, the 3% of humanity said to serve in the navy could be anywhere from 300 to 500 million people.

Cruisers: 10000 (?). Complement 2500-5000.

Frigates typically hunt in packs of 5-6, often with a cruiser in the lead. So we could assume:

Frigates: 60000. Complement 100 (on average)

We can only guess at numbers of fighters.

Fighters: 50000 (?) Complement 1 (some have 2)

Does this seem somewhere in the right ballpark? What are your numbers?

*Goes in search of other threads with possible info*

Modifié par lillitheris, 15 mai 2012 - 12:41 .

[arial]

interesting question, makes me think

[lillitheris]

The thing is, I don’t remember any of the conventional victory threads addressing the friendly forces, opting to mainly concentrate on the enemy…

The cruiser number is the troublesome one, except that we know that supposedly only 3% of humans serve in the navy. This gives us a figure of somewhere around 500 million.

I think given infantry and so on, even 10 000 cruisers wouldn’t be outlandish.

Except for the whole building them part.

[arial]

i remember in ME1 after the Admiral dude inspects the Normandy, when addressing the drive core he says "for the same price we could have had a heavy cruiser". would have been interesting if they had replaced cruisers with a Fleet of SR1s

[HellbirdIV]

What are the 9 Alliance Dreadnoughts? I thought they only had 6.

[lillitheris]

HellbirdIV wrote...

What are the 9 Alliance Dreadnoughts? I thought they only had 6.

From the weeki: Aconcagua, Elbrus, Everest, Fuji, Kilimanjaro, Logan, Orizaba, Shasta, and Tai Shan.

Edit: SA also has 8 Fleets, so each had one, and either the First Fleet or the Fifth Fleet had two.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 mai 2012 - 08:16 .

[M_Kirkwall]

Shasta is blown up as far as I know.

Wkipedia wrote...

In 2186, if Shepard does not allow Diana Allers on the Normandy SR-2, she embeds with the SSV Shasta instead. The ship is subsequently destroyed during a battle in the Horse Head Nebula.

[lillitheris]

Before the Reaper war. I’m using 40-50% remaining at the end of the war.

[lillitheris]

The reason I’m asking is that if the assumption about cruisers is correct, there was at a minimum 100 000 human/turian/asari/geth/volus/quarian vessels participating in the battle for Earth.

Edit: this means at a minimum 50 million people.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 mai 2012 - 08:30 .

[Awookie]

If humanity only has 9 dreadnoughts, imagine what the Turians have! They have 36 dreadnoughts!

Although more dreadnoughts =/= more cruisers, destroyers, frigates and foot soldiers.

[Drone223]

The Alliance fleet has over 9000 ships in total (some one was going to say it eventually)

Modifié par Drone223, 13 mai 2012 - 09:04 .

[Zartarc]

An Alliance Cruiser has about 80 crewmembers onboard.

Modifié par Zartarc, 13 mai 2012 - 09:13 .

[chengda85]

lillitheris wrote...

So, I was puzzling this out. And yes, this is before the Reaper war.

Dreadnoughts: 9 known +1 possibly being built. Complement ~7500

Carriers: 3 recorded, +1 possible. Complement ~6000 + flight crews

Here’s where it gets interesting. Cruisers are the backbone of the fleets, and we know there’s a SSV Perugia. Now, given that Perugia would probably at best be the 5th city Italians would use, and the relative prominence of China/India/Africa/South America will be higher, it seems reasonable to assume that the name Perugia would at the earliest be given to around the 1000th craft.

Edit: injecting from a later thought, the 3% of humanity said to serve in the navy could be anywhere from 300 to 500 million people.

Cruisers: 10000 (?). Complement 2500-5000.

Frigates typically hunt in packs of 5-6, often with a cruiser in the lead. So we could assume:

Frigates: 60000. Complement 100 (on average)

We can only guess at numbers of fighters.

Fighters: 50000 (?) Complement 1 (some have 2)

Does this seem somewhere in the right ballpark? What are your numbers?

*Goes in search of other threads with possible info*

cruisers are only a bit smaller than dreadnaught, I dont think they have that many

[Zartarc]

chengda85 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

So, I was puzzling this out. And yes, this is before the Reaper war.

Dreadnoughts: 9 known +1 possibly being built. Complement ~7500

Carriers: 3 recorded, +1 possible. Complement ~6000 + flight crews

Here’s where it gets interesting. Cruisers are the backbone of the fleets, and we know there’s a SSV Perugia. Now, given that Perugia would probably at best be the 5th city Italians would use, and the relative prominence of China/India/Africa/South America will be higher, it seems reasonable to assume that the name Perugia would at the earliest be given to around the 1000th craft.

Edit: injecting from a later thought, the 3% of humanity said to serve in the navy could be anywhere from 300 to 500 million people.

Cruisers: 10000 (?). Complement 2500-5000.

Frigates typically hunt in packs of 5-6, often with a cruiser in the lead. So we could assume:

Frigates: 60000. Complement 100 (on average)

We can only guess at numbers of fighters.

Fighters: 50000 (?) Complement 1 (some have 2)

Does this seem somewhere in the right ballpark? What are your numbers?

*Goes in search of other threads with possible info*

cruisers are only a bit smaller than dreadnaught, I dont think they have that many

A Cruiser is around 600 metres long. A dreadnought is nearly 900 metres long. This is a huge difference.

[CptBomBom00]

rev0n wrote...

Shasta is blown up as far as I know.

Wkipedia wrote...

In 2186, if Shepard does not allow Diana Allers on the Normandy SR-2, she embeds with the SSV Shasta instead. The ship is subsequently destroyed during a battle in the Horse Head Nebula.

Hahahahhahaa, LOL, should've stayed on Citadel.

[Northern Sun]

No matter how many ships the Alliance has, the Normandy is the only one that seems to actually be there for reasons other than being blown up.

[lillitheris]

Zartarc wrote...

chengda85 wrote...

cruisers are only a bit smaller than dreadnaught, I dont think they have that many

A Cruiser is around 600 metres long. A dreadnought is nearly 900 metres long. This is a huge difference.

^This, and if there’s not at least in the ballpark of 10 000 cruisers, I just can’t figure out where all those 500 million people are. Note that even 10 000 cruisers at an assumed 2500 complement is ‘only’ 25 million. Even if we assume that only, say, 10% of all personnel see action, it’s still tight.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 mai 2012 - 09:30 .

[GODzilla]

chengda85 wrote...

cruisers are only a bit smaller than dreadnaught, I dont think they have that many

According to the Art of Mass Effect Universe it's at about 2/3 the lenght and maybe half the mass of a dreadnought...

Modifié par GODzilla_GSPB, 13 mai 2012 - 09:42 .

[lillitheris]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

chengda85 wrote...

cruisers are only a bit smaller than dreadnaught, I dont think they have that many

According to the Art of Mass Effect Universe it's at about 2/3 the lenght and maybe half the mass of a dreadnought...

A reasonably modern battleship (< 300 meters, i.e. roughly half the size) has a complement of around 2500. Tech will probably help reduce some of that, but on the other hand, there’re more weapons, and additional tech to take care of.

My point here is that basically for the numbers to make ANY sense, there have to be at least that 25 million crew…whether it’s 10000 with 2500 crew or 100000 with 250 crew, I dunno, but I’m thinking the former is closer.

[Zartarc]

lillitheris wrote...

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

chengda85 wrote...

cruisers are only a bit smaller than dreadnaught, I dont think they have that many

According to the Art of Mass Effect Universe it's at about 2/3 the lenght and maybe half the mass of a dreadnought...

A reasonably modern battleship (< 300 meters, i.e. roughly half the size) has a complement of around 2500. Tech will probably help reduce some of that, but on the other hand, there’re more weapons, and additional tech to take care of.

My point here is that basically for the numbers to make ANY sense, there have to be at least that 25 million crew…whether it’s 10000 with 2500 crew or 100000 with 250 crew, I dunno, but I’m thinking the former is closer.

As I said before: An Alliance Cruiser has about 80 crewmembers. Read the ME Wiki article about the Idenna. The Idenna is a former batarian cruiser, and it carries around 700 quarians onbard. And it also says that an comparable Alliance Cruiser has only 80 crewmembers.

Modifié par Zartarc, 13 mai 2012 - 09:58 .

[lillitheris]

Zartarc wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

chengda85 wrote...

cruisers are only a bit smaller than dreadnaught, I dont think they have that many

According to the Art of Mass Effect Universe it's at about 2/3 the lenght and maybe half the mass of a dreadnought...

A reasonably modern battleship (< 300 meters, i.e. roughly half the size) has a complement of around 2500. Tech will probably help reduce some of that, but on the other hand, there’re more weapons, and additional tech to take care of.

My point here is that basically for the numbers to make ANY sense, there have to be at least that 25 million crew…whether it’s 10000 with 2500 crew or 100000 with 250 crew, I dunno, but I’m thinking the former is closer.

As I said before: An Alliance Cruiser has about 80 crewmembers. Read the ME Wiki article about the Idenna. The Idenna is a former batarian cruiser, and it carries around 360 quarians onbard.

Excellent, thanks for the reference. I don’t quite trust it…there’s just no way that a 600-meter ship would function with 80 people. None. Furthermore, you have to take into account that it requires at a minimum 3 shifts, which leaves only 30 people per shift.

But, let’s say that the actual quote for Idenna, 694 crew, were more accurate at least within the order of magnitude, and that we’re indeed dealing with closer to 250-500 crew. That might be doable (although then that raises the question of why in the hell there are nearly 20 times that many on a dreadnought).

This still leaves the problem of numbers…we’d be looking at closer to 50 000 cruisers, and probably at least 150 000 frigates.

 

[Asebstos]

lillitheris wrote...

The cruiser number is the troublesome one, except that we know that supposedly only 3% of humans serve in the navy. This gives us a figure of somewhere around 500 million..

~3% of humans serve in the military, not just the Navy. So you've got colonial garrisons, the marines, regular infantry, various logisitic and support roles, and a whole bunch of other stuff and then, likely only making up a small fraction of that total, those actively serving on ships.

The best clue to the number of cruisers in the fleet is likely to be found in reference to the Battle of the Citadel. I think about 7 cruisers are listed as lost (if you saved the Council) and its viewed as quite a substantial loss and a not insignificant portion of the 5th fleet.  Its believable that there's a 1:3, 1:5 or possibly even 1:10 ratio of Dreadnoughts to Cruisers, but 1:200 is a bit ludicrous.

Even if the Perguia is the 1000th cruiser, there is no reason to believe that there are 1000 active cruisers. Other city names could have been used on now decommisioned cruisers. Also, there is no reason to believe that all nations are represented equally in terms of naming conventions. The codex for Earth mentions that while some nations are doing great, many others are deep in poverty and stuck at 20th century levels of technology.  Wealthier nations could be disproportionately represented.

[lillitheris]

Asebstos wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

The cruiser number is the troublesome one, except that we know that supposedly only 3% of humans serve in the navy. This gives us a figure of somewhere around 500 million..

~3% of humans serve in the military, not just the Navy. So you've got colonial garrisons, the marines, regular infantry, various logisitic and support roles, and a whole bunch of other stuff and then, likely only making up a small fraction of that total, those actively serving on ships.

I think the quote is for the navy, but you may be correct.

However, as I said, I’m using the assumption that 10% of the total force of 500 million serve aboard ships in the fleet (this includes non-combat personnel).

Edit: even if we drop it to 5% of all military, it’s still 25 million people. That only takes the problem from 50 000 cruisers to 25 000…

There’s definitely a sizable contingent of ground units (although I think it’s all marines now, there’s no army anymore), but given the nature of warfare, I find it hard to believe that it’s more than double the numbers of the fleet.

Also, the note about 3% is mentioned in context of other races being surprised – while it’s possible that this could be accounting for various armies on Earth not attached to the SA (if there are any, I’m not quite clear on this), it seems unlikely.

The best clue to the number of cruisers in the fleet is likely to be found in reference to the Battle of the Citadel. I think about 7 cruisers are listed as lost (if you saved the Council) and its viewed as quite a substantial loss and a not insignificant portion of the 5th fleet.  Its believable that there's a 1:3, 1:5 or possibly even 1:10 ratio of Dreadnoughts to Cruisers, but 1:200 is a bit ludicrous.

Yep. They went wrong somewhere, and I’m not sure where…

Even if the Perguia is the 1000th cruiser, there is no reason to believe that there are 1000 active cruisers. Other city names could have been used on now decommisioned cruisers. Also, there is no reason to believe that all nations are represented equally in terms of naming conventions. The codex for Earth mentions that while some nations are doing great, many others are deep in poverty and stuck at 20th century levels of technology.  Wealthier nations could be disproportionately represented.

That’s sort of a sidenote…for all we know, it might have been the first cruiser ever.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 mai 2012 - 10:24 .

[Robhuzz]

arial wrote...

i remember in ME1 after the Admiral dude inspects the Normandy, when addressing the drive core he says "for the same price we could have had a heavy cruiser". would have been interesting if they had replaced cruisers with a Fleet of SR1s

Those numbers are ridiculous though. Reviving Shepard cost 4 billion credits. Apparently a huge amount of money that's barely affordable for Cerberus judging from both Wilson and Miranda.. Yet they also built the SR2. Let's assume it's more expensive but not outlandishly so (if they can barely afford 4 billion, the SR2 can't cost something like 50 billion) yet that admiral dude in ME1 says the drive core for the Normandy SR1 alone costs 120 billion credits. Enough to build drive cores for 12.000 fighters he said.

[Asebstos]

lillitheris wrote...

A reasonably modern battleship (< 300 meters, i.e. roughly half the size) has a complement of around 2500. Tech will probably help reduce some of that, but on the other hand, there’re more weapons, and additional tech to take care of.
 

You're thinking too much in terms of WW2 era ships.

A Ticonderoga class cruiser, built in the 1980s, is 173m long and has a crew of around 400 officers and enlisted. A 185m Cleveland class cruiser, built in the 1940s, had a crew of around 1200. Meanwhile, the upcoming Zumalt class destroyers are to be 180m long and have a crew of a mere 140.

So, in the span of ~70 years we've gone from ships of ~170-180m  in length having crews of over a thousand to having crwes of less than 200. There's a 88% reduction in crew size from the Cleveland class to the upcoming Zumalt class. As technology advances there simply isn't as much need for large crews as more and more systems become automated.

Modifié par Asebstos, 13 mai 2012 - 10:36 .