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[Zkyire]

chengda85 wrote...

Zartarc wrote...

chengda85 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

So, I was puzzling this out. And yes, this is before the Reaper war.

Dreadnoughts: 9 known +1 possibly being built. Complement ~7500

Carriers: 3 recorded, +1 possible. Complement ~6000 + flight crews

Here’s where it gets interesting. Cruisers are the backbone of the fleets, and we know there’s a SSV Perugia. Now, given that Perugia would probably at best be the 5th city Italians would use, and the relative prominence of China/India/Africa/South America will be higher, it seems reasonable to assume that the name Perugia would at the earliest be given to around the 1000th craft.

Edit: injecting from a later thought, the 3% of humanity said to serve in the navy could be anywhere from 300 to 500 million people.

Cruisers: 10000 (?). Complement 2500-5000.

Frigates typically hunt in packs of 5-6, often with a cruiser in the lead. So we could assume:

Frigates: 60000. Complement 100 (on average)

We can only guess at numbers of fighters.

Fighters: 50000 (?) Complement 1 (some have 2)

Does this seem somewhere in the right ballpark? What are your numbers?

*Goes in search of other threads with possible info*

cruisers are only a bit smaller than dreadnaught, I dont think they have that many

A Cruiser is around 600 metres long. A dreadnought is nearly 900 metres long. This is a huge difference.

so they are about 33% bigger, I dont see why you would have 10000 cruisers when they are 600 meters long and cost a lot to build

Frigates around 160 metres in length.

Cruisers around 400 metres in length (2.5 times the length of a Frigate).

Drednoughts around 1000 metres in length (2.5 times the length of a Cruiser).

A Drednought compared to a Cruiser would be:

- 2.5 times longer.
- 2.5 times wider.
- 2.5 times taller.

That is absolutely massive.

Modifié par Zkyire, 14 mai 2012 - 12:39 .

[Langeman]

Asebstos wrote...

You're thinking too much in terms of WW2 era ships.

A Ticonderoga class cruiser, built in the 1980s, is 173m long and has a crew of around 400 officers and enlisted. A 185m Cleveland class cruiser, built in the 1940s, had a crew of around 1200. Meanwhile, the upcoming Zumalt class destroyers are to be 180m long and have a crew of a mere 140.

So, in the span of ~70 years we've gone from ships of ~170-180m  in length having crews of over a thousand to having crwes of less than 200. There's a 88% reduction in crew size from the Cleveland class to the upcoming Zumalt class. As technology advances there simply isn't as much need for large crews as more and more systems become automated.

You're right about that as technology progresses man is traded for computers (VI in ME) but a cruiser and a destroyer is VERY different, mostly in what purpose they serve, so you can't compare the two models/types. 

[lillitheris]

So, trying very hard to ignore the completely nonsensical distribution of military personnel, I think as a compromise toward what seems like completely underestimated strengths by BioWare I could make it work for myself (fanfic) at a minimum somewhere around:

10 Dreadnoughts @ 7500 crew (I’d actually like to add a few more, maybe a total of 12…)
4-5 Carriers @ 6000 crew
16 Hospital ships @ 5000 crew
3000 Cruisers @250-500 crew
7000 Frigates @30-100 crew

Fighter count is inconsequential, but let’s call it somewhere around 20000.

In addition, there are numerous transport vessels that aren’t directly in the combat strength.

[lillitheris]

Here’s another data point: there are around 2000 Reapers proper. Each of them is equivalent to 3 dreadnoughts (roughly). In addition, they have, let’s say, at least on the order of 20000-30000 destroyers (if we go by the description on how they’re created).

That force would utterly and absolutely destroy a ‘fleet’ of 200 ships. It would decimate a fleet of 2000 ships. This is a degree of domination that it would take literally just hours to destroy the entire galactic fleet, everywhere.

This is another factor in support of significantly higher numbers.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 mai 2012 - 05:34 .

[Zkyire]

Thing is, by keeping it vague, it allows Bioware to do more.

By giving us specific numbers of each individual force, they're limiting themselves in terms of what they can do, and where each battlegroup/fleet is. However, I'd prefer it this way, as it would force the story to be one more about tactics, rather than mystery. I like knowing the specifics on these things, even if it would be restricting (and it would be as the numbers would have to be balenced perfectly with technological differences to make the forces even).

As it stands, the Reapers are about 2.5 to 3 times more advanced than the current Council forces. And their Dreds are twice the size of Council Dreds too. That alone doesn't even make sense. They're millions (possibly billions) of years old, but they're only a couple generations more advanced than the Council civilisations. Because they're not *that* much more advanced, they'd need massive numbers to take on the galactic forces. The few hundred Reapers we see at the end of ME2 would in no way be able to take on the whole galaxy, they'd be wiped out. They'd have to number in the thousands. Of course, if that were true, then the balance would be so far in their favour there wouldn't even be a war, they'd just steamroll their way through the galaxy in a week (even quicker than they did). So the only way the galaxy could even hold out as long as it did, is if its own forces were much larger than what we're told.

- A Dreadnought is 2.5 times the size of a Cruiser (1000m vs 400m respectively), and 6.25 times the size of a Frigate (1000m vs 160m respectively).

- It takes 4 Dreadnoughts to take down 1 Reaper Dreadnought.

- That means it takes 10 Cruisers to take down 1 Reaper Dreadnought.

- Also means it takes 25 Frigates to take down 1 Reaper Dreadnought.

Galactic forces combined have around 100 Dreadnoughts, so at a 4-1 ratio, thay'd be able to take down 25 Reapers. That's not many.

We don't know about the numbers of Cruisers and Frigates, but there'd have to be A LOT to fight the Reapers (and win) even if there are only 295 (as shown by the ME2 ending).

Modifié par Zkyire, 14 mai 2012 - 05:46 .

[lillitheris]

The Reaper count is simple (someone did a more accurate calculation, but roughly): they’ve been around at least 1 million years, they do a cycle every 50 000 years, and they create one new Reaper every cycle, that means that even at an attrition of 50%, they’d have at least 2000 of them.

[Zkyire]

lillitheris wrote...

The Reaper count is simple (someone did a more accurate calculation, but roughly): they’ve been around at least 1 million years, they do a cycle every 50 000 years, and they create one new Reaper every cycle, that means that even at an attrition of 50%, they’d have at least 2000 of them.

2000 Reaper Dreadnoughts means the combined Galactic fleet would need 20,000 Cruisers (and that's for both forces being annihilated).

..and then there are the Destroyers which outnumber the Dreadnoughts 2-1 or higher.

Modifié par Zkyire, 14 mai 2012 - 05:53 .

[lillitheris]

Now, we know that in a straight-up fight the allied fleets would lose to the Reapers eventually (for the purposes of this discussion, I’m ignoring the conventional victory option).

But, there’s a crucial point somewhere between a complete trouncing and what amounted to a retreat, and a semi-successful defense of several planets for a period of time, and a last-ditch effort that actually tangled the main Reaper concentration to both cover the Crucible, and cover a troop deployment to the planet…

That’s the number I’m looking for, I guess.

[AlanC9]

lillitheris wrote...
10 Dreadnoughts @ 7500 crew (I’d actually like to add a few more, maybe a total of 12…)
4-5 Carriers @ 6000 crew
16 Hospital ships @ 5000 crew
3000 Cruisers @250-500 crew
7000 Frigates @30-100 crew

Fighter count is inconsequential, but let’s call it somewhere around 20000.

In addition, there are numerous transport vessels that aren’t directly in the combat strength.

These numbers strike me as being.... kind of preposterous. If that much of your military capacity is in the cruisers, then dreadnoughts wouldn't be worth making treaties about.

[lillitheris]

^ Agreed, but the dreadnoughts we have hard numbers for.

Edit: As in, I can certainly add a few, but not 5 times as many or something.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 mai 2012 - 06:08 .

[AlanC9]

Right. I guess what I'm really saying is that this whole effort is worthless because Bio's background doesn't make sense. Garbage in, garbage out.

[varteral6162]

The Alliance Seventh and Eighth Fleets are missing in ME3, they survive the Reaper initial attack during the beginning of the Game but disappear with no explanation.
The Alliances largest fleet the First fleet was cut in half during the Reaper assault on Arcturus station.
The Alliance Second and Fourth Fleets were destroyed by the Reapers in the first push towards Earth.

[lillitheris]

varteral6162 wrote...

The Alliance Seventh and Eighth Fleets are missing in ME3, they survive the Reaper initial attack during the beginning of the Game but disappear with no explanation.
The Alliances largest fleet the First fleet was cut in half during the Reaper assault on Arcturus station.
The Alliance Second and Fourth Fleets were destroyed by the Reapers in the first push towards Earth.

Yep, but that doesn’t help if there’s 10 ships in each fleet :happy:

[Ajosraa]

lillitheris wrote...

The Reaper count is simple (someone did a more accurate calculation, but roughly): they’ve been around at least 1 million years, they do a cycle every 50 000 years, and they create one new Reaper every cycle, that means that even at an attrition of 50%, they’d have at least 2000 of them.

Hummm... the derelict Reaper in ME2 was 37 million years old.... And the Leviathan of Dis is said to be 1 billion years old.

Thats a lot of Reapers

74,000 - 2000000 Reapers. Yikes.  And if these are all Soverigns...

Modifié par Ajosraa, 14 mai 2012 - 09:09 .

[lillitheris]

Ajosraa wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

The Reaper count is simple (someone did a more accurate calculation, but roughly): they’ve been around at least 1 million years, they do a cycle every 50 000 years, and they create one new Reaper every cycle, that means that even at an attrition of 50%, they’d have at least 2000 of them.

Hummm... the derilict Reaper in ME2 was 37 million years old.... And the Leviathan of Dis is said to be 1 billion years old.

Thats a lot of Reapers

74,000 - 2000000 Reapers. Yikes.  And if these are all Soverigns...

Yeah, I’m pretty sure they just didn’t do the math at all, and will call 2000 + 20000 a reasonable number of their attack fleet. Maybe the rest are dead or on vacation, or just hanging out in the dark space or whatever. So the 2k is what we need to fight.

And even that requires a combined allied fleet of somewhere north of 50 000 ships.

[ZombieGambit]

They have like 15 ships. Think about it, they lost 8 ships in the Battle of the Citadel, which "took everything [they] had," and that was a third of the ships in three fleets, plus when you find single cruisers by scanning planets they make up about a fourth of the strength of a fleet.

Seriously, like 15 ships total.

[varteral6162]

Ajosraa wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

The Reaper count is simple (someone did a more accurate calculation, but roughly): they’ve been around at least 1 million years, they do a cycle every 50 000 years, and they create one new Reaper every cycle, that means that even at an attrition of 50%, they’d have at least 2000 of them.

Hummm... the derelict Reaper in ME2 was 37 million years old.... And the Leviathan of Dis is said to be 1 billion years old.

Thats a lot of Reapers

74,000 - 2000000 Reapers. Yikes.  And if these are all Soverigns...

remember Sovereign "our numbers will darken the sky in every world"

[Lopez23]

Ajosraa wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

The Reaper count is simple (someone did a more accurate calculation, but roughly): they’ve been around at least 1 million years, they do a cycle every 50 000 years, and they create one new Reaper every cycle, that means that even at an attrition of 50%, they’d have at least 2000 of them.

Hummm... the derilict Reaper in ME2 was 37 million years old.... And the Leviathan of Dis is said to be 1 billion years old.

Thats a lot of Reapers

74,000 - 2000000 Reapers. Yikes.  And if these are all Soverigns...

but remember the cycle is not EVERY fifty thousand years just the last time that it happend the reapers wait until they believe a cycle is advanced enough but also not strong enough militarily to defeat the reapers before they invade and think about it life takes a long time to evolve and even with species that are untouched during previous cycles it woulnt mean that a new species would advance that far every fifty thousand years...and which brings to my next point about the reapers numbers....I would say Sovereign class Reapers would number around 2000or 3000 with destroyers numbering around 7000 brining numbers to a total of 9000 or 10000 because if there were say 50000 sov reapers or total they would just steamroll the galaxy the reapers conecntrated a significant amount of forces to fight the Turians who are barely holding them nd they are the strongest military force they got 35-37 dreadnoughts and sure they could use their tactical minds to maybe take out a few dozen capitals and a few hundred destroyers but even so 10000 capitals would easily steamroll the turians....so any numbers above 10000 total for reapers is crazy but Alliance Forces i think would go like this

9 Dreadnoughts: Kilimanjaro, Shasta, Tai Shan, Logan, Everest, Elbrus, Aconcagua, Fuji, Orizaba
i would say each leading a fleet with maybe the Fifth containing the two dreadnoughts
most fleets i would say the rest of the Fleet would be 120 cruisers and about 240 frigates so then there could be a main cruiser force to bolster the Dreadnoughts Battle line and then a few dozen wolfpacks to harrass the enemy up close so total
Systems Alliance Navy
Carriers: atleast 3 or 4
Dreadnoughts: 9
Cruisers: 920
Frigates: 1920
Fighters atleast 6000
this i wouldnt beleive even though i said it cuz there has to be atleast a couple of thousand ships total but i was trying to keep the size of a fleet reasonable and in my eyes beleivable

[sf0749]

Age of the Reapers

Planetary Journal/Jartar

The Leviathan of Dis was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team and estimated to be nearly a billion years old.

In the third game, it was revealed that the Leviathan was an inactive Reaper.

First Fleet's Status

There are three possible scenarios for this fleet.

X Number of Ships Scenario

War Assets/Alliance/First Fleet

By the time that Admiral Hackett issued the order to retreat, its size - once in the largest in the Alliance navy - had been cut in half. Commanding Admiral Ines Lindholm made the painful decision to use a tenth of the fleet's remaing vessels as cover so the remainder could escape.

Y Number of Ships Scenario

War Assets/Alliance/First Fleet

This fleet lost a third of its vessles protecting the Council during the Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortuntaely, the Alliance did not have the time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the Reapers invaded.

0 Number of Ships Scenario

Codex/The Reaper War/The Fall of Earth

Dozens more capital ships continued through the Charon Relay, where the First Fleet had been lying in wait but was soon destroyed.

Status of Other Fleets

Second Fleet - destroyed

War Assets/Alliance/Fifth Fleet

After a bloody and desperate fight, Admiral Hackett gave the order to retreat, sacrificing the entirety of the Alliance Second Fleet to give the Third and Fifth the chance to escape.

Third Fleet - active, reduced in number

There are two possible scenarios for this fleet.

X Number of Ships Scenario

This fleet lost a number of ships in defending Arcturus Station. (Codex/The Reaper War/The Fall of Earth; War Assets/Alliance/Third Fleet).

Y Number of Ships Scenario

War Assets/Alliance/Third Fleet

This fleet lost a third of its vessels protecting the Council during the Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortunately, the Alliance did not have the time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the Reapers invaded.

Fourth Fleet - destroyed

Codex/The Reaper War/The Fall of Earth

The Fourth Fleet, near Earth, had a few minutes of advance warning. It stood no better chance.

Fifth Fleet - active, reduced in number

There are two possible scenarios for this fleet.

X Number of Ships Scenario

This fleet lost
a number of ships in defending Arcturus Station. (Codex/The Reaper
War/The Fall of Earth; War Assets/Alliance/Fifth Fleet).

Y Number of Ships Scenario

War Assets/Alliance/Fifth Fleet

This
fleet lost a third of its vessels protecting the Council during the
Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortunately, the Alliance did not
have the time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the
Reapers invaded.

This fleet was later involved in the operation to destroy the Cronus Station in the Anadius system.

Sixth Fleet  - active

There are two possible scenarios for this fleet.

X Number of Ships Scenario

Codex/The Reaper War/The Fall of Earth

The Reapers bypassed the Sixth and Seventh Fleets at Terra Nova and Eden Prime, flying straight from relay to relay where they could neither be tracked or intercepted.

War Assets/Alliance/Sixth Fleet

Their last order from Admiral Hackett was to avoid engagement and lay in reserve.

Y Number of Ships Scenario

Planetary Journal/Terra Nova

The Reapers landed on Terra Nova after a brief battle with the Alliance's Sixth Fleet. Aware that it would loss, the fleet retreated in hopes of meeting with allies and retaking the planet.

Seventh Fleet - unknown

This fleet is mentioned only in The Reaper War (see above). The planetary journal for Eden Prime doesn't mention the fleet, and the fleet is not listed as a war asset.

Eighth Fleet - unknown, presumed destroyed

Firebase Dagger Summary

The human Eighth Fleet tried to hold off the Reapers' advance, but their primary defense failed. They rallied at a secret military installation above the allied colony of Ontarom, only to find the Reapers waiting. The survivors' mission now is to harass the Reaper fleet, give cover to colonists fleeign the area, and reclaim a land-based communication station essential to the war effort.

[varteral6162]

ZombieGambit wrote...

They have like 15 ships. Think about it, they lost 8 ships in the Battle of the Citadel, which "took everything [they] had," and that was a third of the ships in three fleets, plus when you find single cruisers by scanning planets they make up about a fourth of the strength of a fleet.

Seriously, like 15 ships total.

Soverein did have a massive Geth Fleet supporting it, so it's unlikly the Alliance only lost 8 Cruisers.

The 8 Cruisers lost at the battle of the Citadel are probably the ones Sovereign destroyed when the arms opened,
the Geth fleet probably destroyed a lot more when the Alliance saved the Destiny Ascension from the bulk of the Geth Fleet.

All the 8 Cruisers lost were a part of the 5th fleet, the 3rd and 1st probably took heavy losses battling the Geth fleet to save the Council. 

Modifié par varteral6162, 14 mai 2012 - 09:45 .

[sf0749]

Cerberus Daily News, January 31, 2010

It is the highest honor awarded to a military unit and recognizes gallantry above and beyond those of the Palladium Star, awarded to all Citadel and Fifth Fleet units who fought in the battle.

This article is about the 24th Fighter Group being awarded the Galactic Unit Citation for their actions in the Battle of the Citadel.

If the First and Third Fleets were involved in this battle, why weren't they given the same recognition as the Citadel Fleet and the Alliance Fifth Fleet?

[varteral6162]

sf0749 wrote...

Cerberus Daily News, January 31, 2010

It is the highest honor awarded to a military unit and recognizes gallantry above and beyond those of the Palladium Star, awarded to all Citadel and Fifth Fleet units who fought in the battle.

This article is about the 24th Fighter Group being awarded the Galactic Unit Citation for their actions in the Battle of the Citadel.

If the First and Third Fleets were involved in this battle, why weren't they given the same recognition as the Citadel Fleet and the Alliance Fifth Fleet?

The Fifth Fleet lost eight Cruisers spear-heading the rescue of the Destiny Ascension and were the first to engage Sovereign.
The First and Third Fleet were propably engaging the Geth fleets around the Citadel covering the Fifth from the Geth while the Fifth was engaging Sovereign.
Also the First and Third Fleets lost a third of their ships to the Geth Fleet while covering the Fifth.

[lillitheris]

sf0749 wrote...

Age of the Reapers

Snip lots of info

But what does it mean? :happy:

[sf0749]

I think ,vartera6162, that we can argue about whether the First and Third fleets were actually present at the Battle of the Citadel until we are blue in the face. I accept that you believe that they were in this battle. I disagree with your belief for I believe that this was a major retcon by Bioware, and, in the original version of events, that only the Fifth Fleet was in the battle.

[Lopez23]

sf0749 wrote...

Cerberus Daily News, January 31, 2010

It is the highest honor awarded to a military unit and recognizes gallantry above and beyond those of the Palladium Star, awarded to all Citadel and Fifth Fleet units who fought in the battle.

This article is about the 24th Fighter Group being awarded the Galactic Unit Citation for their actions in the Battle of the Citadel.

If the First and Third Fleets were involved in this battle, why weren't they given the same recognition as the Citadel Fleet and the Alliance Fifth Fleet?

cuz they werent there Bioware retconed the 1st and 3rd fleet there even though its clearly stated in ME1 that its the 5th Fleet and only the fifth fleet that reinforces the citadel fleet

Modifié par Lopez23, 14 mai 2012 - 10:24 .