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[Dakota Strider]

With summer coming, and the excitement (if you can call it that) of PAX East having subsided, it seems that the forums are slowing down.  A perfect time to pull out lists that somebody has made, to tell us all which games they think are best.  Now if you do a search for "all time greatest" anything, you will find that almost noone agrees.  Such was the case when I started my search by typing "best computer role playing games of all time."

But, I have found a list, that is a composite of different game reviews, plus seems to incorporate either customer reviews or total sales.  This seems a little bit more objective than many of the lists I have found.  Especially the one that had all the Final Fantasy games in the top 5.

The source of this particular list is games.toptenreviews.com/list_ranking_pc_rpg.htm .  While it ranks 174 games, it is by no means complete.  Some of the oldest games in the genre did not get ratings, or did not get the same coverage.  For example SSI's Pool of Radiance (Gold Box) is ranked only 149th, with one review.  I would have easily put it in the top 50, perhaps top 25 because of how well it did things back in 1988.  Similarly, games like the Bard's Tale, do not get their proper due, in my opinion. 

Newer games like Mass Effect 3, TES Skryim, Witcher 2 or even Dragon age II are not included.  So that leaves it to us to decide where they would fit in. 

The top ten  (Bioware games highlighted red) 


1.Fallout 3
2. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
3. Baldurs Gate II: Shadows of Amn
4. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
5. Dragon Age: Origins
6. Planescape: Torment
7. Baldurs Gate
8. Mass Effect 2
9. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
10. Neverwinter Nights

Bioware does great with 3 of the top 5, and 6 of the top 10 games on this list.  I have played all games in the top 10, except the #1, 2, 6 and 8th ranked games.  I would put NwN higher, and Oblivian a little lower.  However, I am guessing that Skyrim would probably be rated close to Oblivion, either above or below it.  I would not put DA2 in the top 20, personally.  ME3, also was not that great for me (even if you discount the ending), and would also place it outside the top 20.

As I mentioned, this list is a composite of ratings, not the opinion of the person(s) publishing it.  An example of one of the entries:

• » Critic Reviews
  
  
  
• » User Reviews
  
  
  
• » Images

Publisher:
Electronic Arts

Developer:
BioWare

Release Date:
2009-11-03


Dragon Age: Origins
MATURE | Computer Role-Playing | 1 Player





Overall Rating

3.724
Average Critic Score
3.692


127 of 39,490 All Time
20 of 8377 PC
5 of 507 RPG
1 of 265 2009
9 of 1595

So, while there is plenty of room for debate, it at least has some "facts" for the basis of this listing.  

Another reason for posting this.  If these are the top RPG' (on the computer) of all time, then this is what Bioware should shoot for.  They have proven that they already know how to make the best games of the genre, by all the red titles in the top 10.  They have to stop trying to re-invent the wheel, and go back to what has worked when they were at the top of their game.

((edit:  Could not make the Bioware titles Red, so they are bold/italic/underlined instead))

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 14 mai 2012 - 01:03 .

[LolaLei]

Awesome.

Modifié par LolaLei, 14 mai 2012 - 01:01 .

[wsandista]

Dude, if you have not played Planescape, you need to download it from GoG. That game is amazing. Honestly I would put NWN2 instead of Morrowind and Fallout: New Vegas instead of Mass Effect 2.

I agree, Bioware needs to make the games like BG, NWN, and DAO and stop trying to make action-RPGs. The companies that make those do it much better(CD Projeckt RED comes to mind) and few make the Hardcore party-based RPGs as great as Bioware.

[MichaelStuart]

Whats wrong with trying to make the wheel better?
Dragon age Origin was a great game, but I would never put it in my top ten lists.
Dragon age 2 for all its flaws tried to make better game play. it failed, but it tried.
So I say Dragon age 3 should try something different, than try to copy dragon age Origins and Dragon age 2

[Dakota Strider]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Whats wrong with trying to make the wheel better?
Dragon age Origin was a great game, but I would never put it in my top ten lists.
Dragon age 2 for all its flaws tried to make better game play. it failed, but it tried.
So I say Dragon age 3 should try something different, than try to copy dragon age Origins and Dragon age 2

It is my belief that DA2 would not be high on THIS list, because it attempts to be something other than a role playing game. Instead of trying to be a sequel of one of the top rated rpg's of all time, with just a different story, it tried to become an action game.  That is an entirely different genre, and people that bought DA2, thinking they were getting another DAO, were very disappointed.

I am curious, what type of games would you put in your top 10, of rpg's? 

[Icesong]

Paid to review games*

[MichaelStuart]

1.Link's Awakening
2.Majora's Mask
3.Fallout 3
4.Skyrim
5.Fallout new Vegas
6.Twilight Princess
7.Ocarina of Time
8.Oblivon
9.mass effect 2
10.Breath of fire 2

If you think the Metroid Prime Trilogy is ARPG then I would put it sixth.

[Dakota Strider]

@MichaelStuart.
Going by your list, it is clear that you prefer a different genre of games, than the type that Bioware has traditionally made. Which is fine. However, I wonder why you feel it is necessary to try to influence Bioware to create games that fall in line with the action/jrpg style game, when there are already so many titles that fall into that genre? If I were to play one of the different Zelda games, and then complain on their forums, that they need to change to a more western style, I am sure it would not be appreciated by those that like action adventure style.

[wsandista]

MichaelStuart wrote...

1.Baldur's Gate 2
2.Planescape: Torment
3.Dragon Age: Origins
4.The Witcher 2
5.Fallout New Vegas
6.Neverwinter Nights 2
7.Neverwinter Nights
8.Skyrim
9.KOTOR
10.Icewind Dale

 

Fixed

[MichaelStuart]

@Dakota Strider
To each there own

I like Bioware because they have the best written stories I have seen in any game I have played, If you went to Zelda Forums and told them to put better stories in their games, I would be grateful.

Dragon age Origin was a great game. IT was well written and had likeable characters. What stop it getting on my top ten was its slow combat and lack of exploration.
Dragon age 2 was a good game. It combat was better than Origin, its story I enjoyed but hated that you weren't able pick some important plot points. What stop it being a great game was the terrible area design.

I don't what Dragon age 3 to be Dragon age Origins, I really don't want it to Dragon age 2, nor do I want It to be Zelda or Elder scrolls,
I want Dragon age 3 to be a well craft story that I can that changes with my actions, to have interesting characters that I can talk to about stuff I want to talk about, a world I can explore, a combat system based on player skill and not based on stats or button bashing.

You ask why I'm trying to get Bioware to make the game I think would be one of the best. I only know what I like, and I do not like the combat in Dragon age.

note: I don't really like JRPG's, Breath of fire 2 was a game that I bot for Wii because I was bored, the combat is terrible but you can explore the world and the story is great. There is this bit at the end where your giving a choice to end the game or start the final. In Dragon age 2 when your told to pick a side, it would have been great if they let you say no and walk away, ending the game.

[MichaelStuart]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Wsandista wrote...

1.Baldur's Gate 2
2.Planescape: Torment
3.Dragon Age: Origins
4.The Witcher 2
5.Fallout New Vegas
6.Neverwinter Nights 2
7.Neverwinter Nights
8.Skyrim
9.KOTOR
10.Icewind Dale

 

Fixed

note:Your joke was not funny

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 14 mai 2012 - 03:53 .

[Dakota Strider]

@MichaelStuart

And myself, I liked the combat in Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights better than DAO. However, I accepted the compromise Bioware made, to speed up the combat, a bit. That is because Bioware no longer had the license to make an AD&D game, and had to create an entirely new ruleset. However, I felt that DA2 went too far away from the strategic/tactical combat style that older Bioware games first hooked me on.

I agree that more exploration would be great. I prefer my adventuring in the wilderness, not cities. And for me, story is much more important than most bells and whistles. But combat needs to be done well, and in a logical manner. Without combat, an rpg is not much more than an interactive storybook. And if combat is turned into an action game, it really voids most of the decision making that we used to expect from Bioware fantasy rpg's.

[MichaelStuart]

Filament wrote...

Technically it's supposed to be a list of top PC RPGs, MichaelStuart.

PC, Consoles, What the diffence? I just call them computers.
without good games their both just lumps of palstic and wires

[MichaelStuart]

Dakota Strider wrote...

@MichaelStuart

And myself, I liked the combat in Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights better than DAO. However, I accepted the compromise Bioware made, to speed up the combat, a bit. That is because Bioware no longer had the license to make an AD&D game, and had to create an entirely new ruleset. However, I felt that DA2 went too far away from the strategic/tactical combat style that older Bioware games first hooked me on.

I agree that more exploration would be great. I prefer my adventuring in the wilderness, not cities. And for me, story is much more important than most bells and whistles. But combat needs to be done well, and in a logical manner. Without combat, an rpg is not much more than an interactive storybook. And if combat is turned into an action game, it really voids most of the decision making that we used to expect from Bioware fantasy rpg's.

I don't understand how changing the combat would void Bioware.
I have never played AD&D, but how does rolling dice makes a game Strategic/tactical?
Do me Strategic/tactical is about out thinking your enemy and getting them to expose they weakness.

I mean no offense, I just don't understand

[Zanallen]

Dakota Strider wrote...

@MichaelStuart.
Going by your list, it is clear that you prefer a different genre of games, than the type that Bioware has traditionally made. Which is fine. However, I wonder why you feel it is necessary to try to influence Bioware to create games that fall in line with the action/jrpg style game, when there are already so many titles that fall into that genre? If I were to play one of the different Zelda games, and then complain on their forums, that they need to change to a more western style, I am sure it would not be appreciated by those that like action adventure style.

Eh, to be honest, I don't think you can really say there is a tradition of Bioware games other than having companions, romances and a customizable PC (And even those elements weren't present in Bioware's first games). Each Bioware game has been fairly different from the one that proceeded it.

[Althix]

hard to say of top 10... it was about 18 or even 19 years with games.
1 Planescape Torment - best rpg ever made.
2 BG2
3 DAO
4 ME
5 Fallout 2
6 ME3
7 TES: Morrowind
8 BG 1
9 ME2
10 Kotor

as for future projects for bioware, they have to decide what it's gonna be rpg or action. because DA2 is a failure as rpg and as action (you can solo it on any level and it's still boring). As decent mix of action/rpg i can name a Mass Effect 1 game, which is strange for console port, game is good.With some hard choices that character must made, ME3 with out saves almost just as good.
However i doubt that huge, deep game like PS:T would be a good choice these nights it's too complicated for most of players, many of those are console users.

DA:O game is a good example of tactical combat with rpg game in it's core, maybe it's too soft considering level of a threat that Blight was. I killed my Warden only for achievment for example as well as Alister and Loghain. Speaking of Loghain - his death is the only and one truly dramatic event in a whole game, including Awekening.
ME2... well in ME1 you are fighting against Geth forces and a Reaper, throught all the game. Those enemies is a real threat, you just can feel it through gameplay. ME2 game is not about fighting collectors, whole gameplay is based on creating your team and solving their problems, as soon as important part is done you can casually destroy a Collectors, well just because.
I will not speak of ME3 because i find this game very well made, with flaws(which not includes endings dramas) but still a good game.

Bioware have many models to make a decent game, game that will put all others their products in a shadow. I would like strong rpg core game, with sacrifices, hard choices, decisions that affects whole gameplay. With combat system that require strategy in team building, combat tactics which is based on classes that players have and overall tactical combat that we saw in DA:O. I will wait for this game and i will pay any money for such product.
So there is only 2 questions will EA brand ruin Bioware brand? Is bioware can make a perfect game, not just good one?

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 mai 2012 - 05:38 .

[Dakota Strider]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

@MichaelStuart

And myself, I liked the combat in Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights better than DAO. However, I accepted the compromise Bioware made, to speed up the combat, a bit. That is because Bioware no longer had the license to make an AD&D game, and had to create an entirely new ruleset. However, I felt that DA2 went too far away from the strategic/tactical combat style that older Bioware games first hooked me on.

I agree that more exploration would be great. I prefer my adventuring in the wilderness, not cities. And for me, story is much more important than most bells and whistles. But combat needs to be done well, and in a logical manner. Without combat, an rpg is not much more than an interactive storybook. And if combat is turned into an action game, it really voids most of the decision making that we used to expect from Bioware fantasy rpg's.

I don't understand how changing the combat would void Bioware.
I have never played AD&D, but how does rolling dice makes a game Strategic/tactical?
Do me Strategic/tactical is about out thinking your enemy and getting them to expose they weakness.

I mean no offense, I just don't understand

Before there were rpg computer/video games, there was Dungeons and Dragons, and before there was D&D, there was war games.  D&D was developed by war-gamers that were trying to add a different feel to their games.  Their first publication was Chainmail, and that evolved into D&D.   So, the basis of D&D has always been strategic/tactical combat, based on a set of logical and precise rules, that made even make believe elements like dragons and magic behave in expected manners.

D&D used dice to determine the results of actions.  Basically all computer / console games that have any chance of random results, but especially combat, does the same thing, except instead of "dice", they use simple programs that create random results.  The older Bioware games, expecially the ones based on D&D showed the player the "dice rolls" that the computer made.  And obviously, the computer can figure the results much quicker than people rolling dozens of dice in a combat round of table top gaming.  Other games, do not show you the results of the internal dice rolling the game is doing, but the game is still doing that.  The chance to hit your opponent: internal dice roll.  The amount of damage an attack does:  Internal dice roll.   Attempt to pick a lock, hide, or move silently: Internal dice roll to see if you succeed.

Because even the greatest marksman in the world, can miss occassionally, there needs to be a system to determine the odds of hitting or missing in a game.  Because the defender should have a chance to avoid an attack, or take less than full damage, you need to have a system to determine minimum and maximum damage possibilities.   Because even a ninja can slip and fall on his ashcan, you need a system to determine the random chances of success.  A game where there is no chance for random occurances, is nothing more than a story that has been pre-written. 

For those of us that want the slower style of combat, want our decisions to make the difference.  We want to plan our moves, move our party into proper positions, pick the right spells, use the terrain and every other factor that should be considered when making combat decisions.  A slower paced game means more than just players able to take time and plan each move.  But it allows your adversaries to behave more intelligently as well.  Not that the AI needs more time to "think", but in action paced games, if the game devs allows your opponents to "think" too fast, it will out perform even the best button masher in the world.  So, when a game uses fast action, the game actually forces the monsters and such to behave dumber, than they would in a slow paced rpg. 

I know there is a sort of strategy and tactics in action rpgs.  However, the amount of choices you have is limited by the speed of the combat.  In older turn based combat systems, the amount of choices you could make was overwhelmingly higher.  In NwN 1, there was probably over 200 possible spells available by the time the 3rd installment was added.  DAO did not have half that many, and the amount of choices in DA2 spell selection was even smaller.  Martial combat feats and skills have been similiarly reduced.  Less options, less choice.  That equals combat that is not as complex, which means that it does not require as much strategy and tactics.  And that is not as satisfying, for myself at least.

If you want to actually out think your enemy, as you stated, a slower game is the one that you want.  And if you want to out think your enemy, it is more satisfying to beat a smarter enemy.   This is only possible in a slower paced combat system.  In a faster combat system, such as in arcade games or action games, it is reflex and repetition in which causes you to succeed.  In a fast paced game, there are usually only a few ways to achieve a victory, and everyone duplicates them.  In a slower paced rpg combat, you could succeed with multiple styles, and every player probably had their own unique style. 

Sorry for the long-winded answer, but I thought an honest question, required an answer that was complete.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 14 mai 2012 - 11:41 .

[deuce985]

I would much prefer Bioware stay on the route they're at.

I personally like the direction their games are going and I feel that if they keep doing the same thing over and over, it will eventually turn me away from their games. They have to move ahead at some point, otherwise your games start feeling stagnant. It would be like playing Call of Duty every year...you know what to expect and the same mechanics stay flawed. At least Dragon Age 2 was ambitious in the way it tried to tell a different story and improved gameplay. I think the foundation is there, they just needed to give it a little more care...

I was playing Baldur's Gate when I was like, 8 years old(although struggling, my dad helped lol). It's nice to feel nostalgia in games every now and then but when you go back to playing those games, you realize how far they've evolved...

It's like playing a turn-based JRPG. I use to enjoy those games but not anymore. You realize their formula hasn't evolved in 15 years...and it's stagnant.

I look for different things in games now. The way games are paced differently is another big reason I prefer it like it is. I tried to play Deus Ex awhile back. That game is a classic but my god...it hasn't aged well. I haven't played Baldur's Gate 2 in awhile but I'd imagine that hasn't either. Nostalgia is overrated, IMO. I use to think ME1 had a lot of better qualities than ME2. Played it again recently...just confirmed how much nostalgia is overrated for me. Games are vastly different now and for the better.

Modifié par deuce985, 14 mai 2012 - 05:41 .

[MichaelStuart]

@Dakota Strider 
I have to disagree.
The problem I have is that I don't think you should apply the rules to a tabletop war game, to individual combat.
Who am I in a Dragon game, Am I Omniscience general ordering troops into battle, or a single warrior/rouge/mage fighting to survive.
They is no such thing as luck. If a ninja slipped it should be because he wasn't looking wear he was going or because I kick him in the legs. If I hit him it should be because I say go to guard his left and I attacked right. Above all else I should win because I was smarter than him, It should never, never be rolled a six.
As for letting you have all the time to think. The challenge should be on Timer, time solves all problems, so where is the challenge. even the best masters play chess on a timer. reflex is learned from hard work.

And please don't say I'm asking for a button brasher, pressing a button to make something awesome happen, is not fun, its lazy.

note:this is the best I can write, I'm not happy with it, I cant get my point as clear as I would like. IT took me a hour to write this

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 14 mai 2012 - 05:51 .

[Althix]

is ME, ME2 and ME3 are CoDs Bioware style? Those games are different from each other as all Bioware products. Except for Swtor i can't name Bioware's product which is a total failure.
Bioware have a huge experience base in making if not perfect(mostly), but good games, even DA2 have some good ideas and solutions (you still own me one Arishok as a friend Bioware!!1).
All past games have something good and something bad.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 mai 2012 - 05:56 .

[deuce985]

Oh and my personal top 10 list, just off the top of my head:

1. KOTOR
2. TES: Morrowind
3. System Shock 2(can I put this on here? I'd say it's a RPG/FPS...)
4. Diablo 2
5. Mass Effect 1/2/3(3 was the best, IMO but the entire franchise should be here. It had a emotional impact on me and not many games do that anymore)
6. Planescape: Torment
7. Chrono Trigger
8. Deus Ex(I'd say it's more RPG than FPS)
9. Baldur's Gate 2
10. Fallout 3

If that list can include MMOs...I'd honestly put WoW as my favorite RPG of all time. Had a few years of amazing fun in that game.

I'm not even sure if that top 10 list would be final for me...I'd have to think awhile. Pretty sure I'm leaving some games out.

It really pains me not putting some games on there like Witcher 2, Jade Empire, Dragon Age:Origins, Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time, Neverwinter Nights, Skyrim, Diablo 1, etc...

Feels like all those should be in the top 10. Too many great RPGs to choose from...

Modifié par deuce985, 14 mai 2012 - 06:10 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

How the hell did NWN beat Jade Empire? NWN was the first game I gave up on after the most boring intro area in the history of games. And this after I finally got out into the city, I was that sick of it.

[deuce985]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

How the hell did NWN beat Jade Empire? NWN was the first game I gave up on after the most boring intro area in the history of games. And this after I finally got out into the city, I was that sick of it.

Jade Empire is probably Bioware's most underrated game, IMO. I so wish we'd get a sequel to that game. I'd love to see them expand off the combat system they used in that game too...

@Dakota You should play Planescape. It's probably the most unique CRPG I've ever played, IMO. Bring Mort the skull along too, he's hilarious...

[Malsumis]

Not sure how anyone could put FO3 above FO 1&2 or NV.