104 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

DP

Modifié par wsandista, 15 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[wsandista]

Sutekh wrote...

Just because people like something you don't (yours truly included) doesn't mean you can extrapolate unrelated preferences and opinions, especially based on one single (rather radical) sample. Assuming and generalizing don't make a point. You're better than that. 

Well what I said before was "Obviously you haven't seen what most of the DA2 crowd who need everything explicitly stated believe RPGs should be like. " I was referring explicitly to those who argue that in a cRPG, if something doesn't explicitly happen, then it doesn't happen. Seeing as almost every time I make an argument for a silentPC because it lets the player embellish the background of the PC, someone from that camp uses the same "if it didn't explicitly happen, it didn't happen" reasoning, I conclude that it isn't a generalization but an accurate assumption of their beliefs.

Modifié par wsandista, 15 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[Realmzmaster]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@Realmzmaster

The reason why I posted this link is to confirm that what you wrote: everybody has his way to interpretate the term RPG. Usually it's about what they would like to see in them, how it's build up, fighting mechanics etc.

No opinion in that matter is right or wrong, it's just that the opinions are different.

I agree with you and thank you for posting the link. Gamers have in their mind what they think a crpg should be. The problem is that everyone's opinion is not the same and each camp or camps tries to dismiss the other gamer's opinion. 

Each gamer knows what they like, but there is no way to please everyone. So game companies rely on demographics to get a picture of their audience and potential audience. If you decided to turn off the data collection program in DAO or DA2 remember you turn off your input into the demographics and the results get skewed in one direction. You have the right to turn it off, but that does not mean it will not have consequences. The data collection program is one way of gathering data,

Much like the list of top ten CRPGs, it is opinion. My opinion of the top ten would be different from what is listed. In fact looking at the entire list I would have rated many games higher than their position on the list and others lower.

[Dakota Strider]

It is a funny world, isn't it? Based on the maps we are shown Denerim and Kirkwall are both cities that have populations that must be well over 10,000 each. But if you discount the mobs of enemies that you kill in the streets, you probably see at most, 100 to 200 different people in these towns. We do not see all the homes where this population resides. Yet we either have to use our imagination to believe that these people really do exist, or else we have to accept that we are gaming inside of ghost towns.

One of the few things I like cutscenes for, is showing large masses of creatures, to give you an idea of how many are there. The darkspawn army at Ostagar, as well as the army of the defenders, you could see via the cutscene cinematic. The game engine would not have been powerful enough to show all of these in regular game play. Another instance, is the "Warden Army" you gathered, as it marched towards Denerim, the cutscene cinematic allowed you to see the hundreds, if not thousands of troops as they filled the road headed north. So in these instances, we get a clue of how many are actually involved, outside of the very small sphere of the protagonist. Are we to believe that they just disappear because the game engine does not permit us to interact with them? I think using one's imagination to determine what they must be doing, is far more preferable than thinking that they just pop in and out, only when the game allows us to see them.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

WHY IS OBLIVION ANYWHERE NEAR THIS LIST?

[Dakota Strider]

Another list, this time from GameSpot.  www.gamespot.com/games.html  Many of the same games, but the order shuffled a bit.  This is their top 15 list, since games #10 through #15 have the same score. They use a rating system, from reviews their own writers/editors have done for the games.   And if you have questions about how they review games, they explain it here:  www.gamespot.com/misc/reviewguidelines.html

As before this list is for PC RPG's, of all time.  It includes more recent releases, as well as some older games the other list did not.  The reason I did a list of PC RPG's, and not all RPG's, is because I only play on a PC, and I am not interested in a game that is not available on that platform.  
 
[Diablo 9.6/10
Dragon Age: Origins 9.5/10
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 9.3/10
Guild Wars 9.2 /10
Neverwinter Nights 9.2 / 10
Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn 9.2 /10
Baldur's Gate 9.2 /10
Wizardry 8 9.1 / 10
Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven 9.1 /10
Mass Effect 3 9.0 / 10
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 9.0 / 10
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings 9.0 / 10
Mass Effect 2 9.0 / 10
Fallout 3 9.0 /10
Mass Effect 9.0 /10

Dragon Age II 8.0 / 10   (59th)

In this ranking, I am not so much concerned about games outside of Bioware.  Different companies have different styles, and will define what an rpg is differently from each other.  There are certainly things that can be learned from games that are ranked highly, but Bioware would get themselves into trouble if they tried to become a hybrid of every other successful game in the genre. 

As I suggested in the OP, Dragon Age II, would not be near the top of the list.  It score very well, but far below many of the Bioware classic rpg's.  I hope that this is being noticed by those that make the decisions about how the games are made, and will go back to the style of games that have worked before.   Do not attempt to mimic another genre of games, to try to be different.   Bioware was already different, attempting to mimic other genres did nothing but make Dragon Age 2 more average, and more like many other lesser games.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 15 mai 2012 - 11:01 .

[MichaelStuart]

Dakota Strider wrote...
Do not attempt to mimic another genre of games, to try to be different.   Bioware was already different, attempting to mimic other genres did nothing but make Dragon Age 2 more average, and more like many other lesser games.

What genre do you think Dragon age 2 was trying to copy? because to me, gameplay wise, I didn't see any difference between Dragon age 2 and Dragon age Origins.

[Teddie Sage]

No love for Japanese or European stuff? This list is invalid for me.

[Issala]

Teddie Sage wrote...

No love for Japanese or European stuff? This list is invalid for me.

It's invalid for a lot of people, apparently.

[Dakota Strider]

@Teddie Sage I am not sure what is considered "European stuff" But the Witcher 2, is tied for 10th, and I know that is made in Poland. As for Japanese, their style appeals to different people. Many of the games made in that style, are not even playable on a PC. So regardless of their merit, they will not be on a list for games that can be played on a PC.

@MichaelStuart To most people it was obvious that DA2 was trying to move farther towards the action gaming route similar to the FF combat styles. You are the only person I have heard that said that DA2 and DAO played the same.

[Realmzmaster]

The list is valid for gamers who only play on a PC. The list is incomplete and invalid if you take consoles into consideration. Since Dakota Strider plays on a PC that is why the list is valid to him. The list ignores many of the good Japanese and European crpgs because it is PC specific. Games like Demon Souls and Dark Souls (except Dark Souls will be coming to the PC in August 2012).

Looking at the list Mass Effect seems to have done quite well on the PC with all three in the top 15 along with BG2, DAO and Neverwinter Nights. I could look at this list and think that maybe Bioware did not go far enough in the direction of Mass Effect with DA2 since it did so well. DA2 was still quite respectable at 59th given some of the competition that it had. It beat out the likes of Kingdoms of Amalur:Reckoning, Vampire the Masquerade:Bloodlines and Redemption, Temple of Elemental Evil (one of my favorites), Realms of Arkania, Drakensang, and Arcanum (another favorite). Not bad for a two year rush job.

[MichaelStuart]

Dakota Strider wrote...
To most people it was obvious that DA2 was trying to move farther towards the action gaming route similar to the FF combat styles. You are the only person I have heard that said that DA2 and DAO played the same.

In Dragon Age Origins, I click on a enemy, my character would run over and randomly attack them.
In Dragon Age 2, I click on on a enemy, my character would run over and randomly attack them, only quicker.

What am I missing?

Also if Dragon Age is moving towards becoming a action game than is a very, very, very long way from getting there.

[wsandista]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The list is valid for gamers who only play on a PC. The list is incomplete and invalid if you take consoles into consideration. Since Dakota Strider plays on a PC that is why the list is valid to him. The list ignores many of the good Japanese and European crpgs because it is PC specific. Games like Demon Souls and Dark Souls (except Dark Souls will be coming to the PC in August 2012).

Looking at the list Mass Effect seems to have done quite well on the PC with all three in the top 15 along with BG2, DAO and Neverwinter Nights. I could look at this list and think that maybe Bioware did not go far enough in the direction of Mass Effect with DA2 since it did so well. DA2 was still quite respectable at 59th given some of the competition that it had. It beat out the likes of Kingdoms of Amalur:Reckoning, Vampire the Masquerade:Bloodlines and Redemption, Temple of Elemental Evil (one of my favorites), Realms of Arkania, Drakensang, and Arcanum (another favorite). Not bad for a two year rush job.

But DAO came in 2nd. Higher than any of the ME games, so I could look at this list and assume that DA2 strayed too far away from DAO.

[jbrand2002uk]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...
To most people it was obvious that DA2 was trying to move farther towards the action gaming route similar to the FF combat styles. You are the only person I have heard that said that DA2 and DAO played the same.

In Dragon Age Origins, I click on a enemy, my character would run over and randomly attack them.
In Dragon Age 2, I click on on a enemy, my character would run over and randomly attack them, only quicker.

What am I missing?

Also if Dragon Age is moving towards becoming a action game than is a very, very, very long way from getting there.

Whoa hold on a second what are you trying to do shatter Dakota and Sylvius the Mad's delusions with a kick in the ass from reality?, shame  on you Micheal go sit in the corner 

Modifié par jbrand2002uk, 16 mai 2012 - 02:02 .

[wsandista]

MichaelStuart wrote...

In Dragon Age Origins, I click on a enemy, my character would run over and randomly attack them.
In Dragon Age 2, I click on on a enemy, my character would run over and randomly attack them, only quicker.

What am I missing?

You couldn't button mash to repeatedly attack in DAO, In DA2 you actually had to turn on the auto-attack to avoid the AWESOME button. In DAO the enemies followed the same rules as the party and most used talents from the same talent/spell list. In DA2 the enemies hit for fractions of the damage the party hit for, attacked at a much slower rate, and had exponentially more health, and almost all of them used abilities that the party did not have access to.

Modifié par wsandista, 16 mai 2012 - 02:11 .

[MichaelStuart]

wsandista wrote...

You couldn't button mash to repeatedly attack in DAO, In DA2 you actually had to turn on the auto-attack to avoid the AWESOME button. In DAO the enemies followed the same rules as the party and most used talents from the same talent/spell list. In DA2 the enemies hit for fractions of the damage the party hit for, attacked at a much slower rate, and had exponentially more health, and almost all of them used abilities that the party did not have access to.

You can't button bash in Dragon age 2. How many times you press the attack does not equal how many times you attack. (I can press the button three times in the time it takes to one attack) The only reason they add this feature is to give the ilusion of control. (Trivia: they do the same thing in aircraft)

As for enemies doing lots more damage and having lots more health, that would be poor game design in any type of game.

As for enemies having abilities that you don't, I'm of the opinion that this makes combat more interesting. 

[wsandista]

MichaelStuart wrote...

You can't button bash in Dragon age 2. How many times you press the attack does not equal how many times you attack. (I can press the button three times in the time it takes to one attack) The only reason they add this feature is to give the ilusion of control. (Trivia: they do the same thing in aircraft)

Yes you can, every attack is triggered by a button press by default. Just because it doesn't respond to press of the AWESOME button doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't inherently rely on button presses rather than auto attack.

As for enemies doing lots more damage and having lots more health, that would be poor game design in any type of game.

I didn't say they did more damage, I said less.

That occurs quite often in the JRPGs. Just play FF, where most enemies have exponentially more health yet deal less damage than the party. So Dakota Strider's comparison of DA2 to FF is valid.

As for enemies having abilities that you don't, I'm of the opinion that this makes combat more interesting. 

The point is that enemies play by a completely different set of rules than the party does in DA2, while they both play by the same rule set in DAO. Foes in DAO have abilities that you don't have access to, but at least they still abide by the general mechanics that the PC and party do.

Your opinion is fine, but judging from your top 10 list of "RPGs", you either haven't played or didn't like the D&D style RPGs that DA was supposed to be like. DAO was a little off, but DA2 wasn't even in the same area as good ol D&D. That is one of the things that pissed so many people off about DA2. Seeing as DA was marketed as the spiritual successor to BG, yet DA2 played closer to Fable or FF than BG(or even DAO for that matter).

Modifié par wsandista, 16 mai 2012 - 03:03 .

[Realmzmaster]

wsandista wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The list is valid for gamers who only play on a PC. The list is incomplete and invalid if you take consoles into consideration. Since Dakota Strider plays on a PC that is why the list is valid to him. The list ignores many of the good Japanese and European crpgs because it is PC specific. Games like Demon Souls and Dark Souls (except Dark Souls will be coming to the PC in August 2012).

Looking at the list Mass Effect seems to have done quite well on the PC with all three in the top 15 along with BG2, DAO and Neverwinter Nights. I could look at this list and think that maybe Bioware did not go far enough in the direction of Mass Effect with DA2 since it did so well. DA2 was still quite respectable at 59th given some of the competition that it had. It beat out the likes of Kingdoms of Amalur:Reckoning, Vampire the Masquerade:Bloodlines and Redemption, Temple of Elemental Evil (one of my favorites), Realms of Arkania, Drakensang, and Arcanum (another favorite). Not bad for a two year rush job.

But DAO came in 2nd. Higher than any of the ME games, so I could look at this list and assume that DA2 strayed too far away from DAO.

True but all of the Mass Effect games are there which means that there is a winning formula that gamers like. Also the list is only for PC specific games not including any consoles.The question remains where do DAO and DA2 fit in the larger audience which includes PC and consoles since many gamers game on both because certain games are not available for the PC like Demon Souls and for now Dark Souls even the Witcher 2 is now available for the Xbox and they are looking at a PS3 port. So a list that is PC specific dooms itself to being only considered by those who game primarily on the PC and is not relevant for others.

Also since Diablo is at the top maybe DA2 should be more like Diablo and improve on that formula. But your opinion is that Diablo is not a role playing game. It seems it is not shared by those who crafted the list.

[MichaelStuart]

wsandista wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

You can't button bash in Dragon age 2. How many times you press the attack does not equal how many times you attack. (I can press the button three times in the time it takes to one attack) The only reason they add this feature is to give the ilusion of control. (Trivia: they do the same thing in aircraft)

Yes you can, every attack is triggered by a button press by default. Just because it doesn't respond to press of the AWESOME button doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't inherently rely on button presses rather than auto attack.

As for enemies doing lots more damage and having lots more health, that would be poor game design in any type of game.

I didn't say they did more damage, I said less.

That occurs quite often in the JRPGs. Just play FF, where most enemies have exponentially more health yet deal less damage than the party. So Dakota Strider's comparison of DA2 to FF is valid.

As for enemies having abilities that you don't, I'm of the opinion that this makes combat more interesting. 

The point is that enemies play by a completely different set of rules than the party does in DA2, while they both play by the same rule set in DAO. Foes in DAO have abilities that you don't have access to, but at least they still abide by the general mechanics that the PC and party do.

Your opinion is fine, but judging from your top 10 list of "RPGs", you either haven't played or didn't like the D&D style RPGs that DA was supposed to be like. DAO was a little off, but DA2 wasn't even in the same area as good ol D&D. That is one of the things that pissed so many people off about DA2. Seeing as DA was marketed as the spiritual successor to BG, yet DA2 played closer to Fable or FF than BG(or even DAO for that matter).

first,  My only point about I was trying to make is that, because a one AWESOME button press does not equil one attack, means that Dragon age 2 is not a button basher. I will call it a button basher when I am able to hit the AWESOME button five times and get five automatic hit.
I don't see what auto attack vs button pressing has got to do with this.( other than the button pressing system they used made people think that had more control over there character, It didn't and there for pointless)

Second, It may have been because I was playing on nightmare, but when I was playing Dragon age 2 enemies were killing me in three hits(even when I had good armour and lots of health) will they were taking what seem like a 1000 to kill.

third, If you are saying that the combat in final fantasy is bad, then I agree, but dont understand the comparosons to Dragon Age, at lest you can move in dragon age.

note:I hate button bashers, the type of combat I like best is in games like assassin creed, were you have to outthink you enemy and hit them were there not defending.   

[wsandista]

Realmzmaster wrote...

True but all of the Mass Effect games are there which means that there is a winning formula that gamers like. Also the list is only for PC specific games not including any consoles.The question remains where do DAO and DA2 fit in the larger audience which includes PC and consoles since many gamers game on both because certain games are not available for the PC like Demon Souls and for now Dark Souls even the Witcher 2 is now available for the Xbox and they are looking at a PS3 port. So a list that is PC specific dooms itself to being only considered by those who game primarily on the PC and is not relevant for others.

Also since Diablo is at the top maybe DA2 should be more like Diablo and improve on that formula. But your opinion is that Diablo is not a role playing game. It seems it is not shared by those who crafted the list.

Which brings me to the conclusion that what constitutes an RPG varies from person to person. My requirement is that the game must let the player have full control over the PC and be able to decide everything the PC does and who the PC is. Some believe that the only requirement is to have level-ups. If I am not mistaken, the list is taking into account all games that are billed as RPGs (edit: on PC). While I do not personally consider Diablo to be an RPG(although it is an excellent game) I recognize that it is generally categorized as one.

Anyways, both BG and NWN rate higher than any Mass Effect, so I could assume that those games have the more successful formula. However I believe that sticking to the original formula(or only slightly modifying it) is the best course of action, seeing as that would be less likely to turn off the base with radical changes.

Modifié par wsandista, 16 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[Realmzmaster]

wsandista wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

True but all of the Mass Effect games are there which means that there is a winning formula that gamers like. Also the list is only for PC specific games not including any consoles.The question remains where do DAO and DA2 fit in the larger audience which includes PC and consoles since many gamers game on both because certain games are not available for the PC like Demon Souls and for now Dark Souls even the Witcher 2 is now available for the Xbox and they are looking at a PS3 port. So a list that is PC specific dooms itself to being only considered by those who game primarily on the PC and is not relevant for others.

Also since Diablo is at the top maybe DA2 should be more like Diablo and improve on that formula. But your opinion is that Diablo is not a role playing game. It seems it is not shared by those who crafted the list.

 If I am not mistaken, the list is taking into account all games that are billed as RPGs. While I do not personally consider Diablo to be an RPG(although it is an excellent game) I recognize that it is generally categorized as one.

You are mistaken the list Dakota Strider is referring to is PC specific since that is what he games on. If you check the entire list for all platforms. it breakes down like this:
Chrono Cross                             PS
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion X360
Diablo                                         PC
Vagrant Story                              PS
Final Fantasy VII                        PS
Dragon Age: Origins                PC
Final Fantasy VIII                      PS
Paper Mario                              N64
Dark Souls                                PS3
Dark Souls                               X360
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion PS3
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion PC
Final Fantasy X                         PS2
Grandia                                     SAT
Guild Wars                               PC
Neverwinter Nights                 PC
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door GC
Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn           PC
Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga               GBA
Baldur's Gate                                             PC
Panzer Dragoon Saga                             SAT
 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 mai 2012 - 04:52 .

[wsandista]

MichaelStuart wrote...

first,  My only point about I was trying to make is that, because a one AWESOME button press does not equal one attack, means that Dragon age 2 is not a button basher. I will call it a button basher when I am able to hit the AWESOME button five times and get five automatic hit.
I don't see what auto attack vs button pressing has got to do with this.( other than the button pressing system they used made people think that had more control over there character, It didn't and there for pointless)

When the AWESOME button is needed to be pressed for every attack, I consider it a button-masher. Auto-Attack is better than the Awesome button because instead of having to press the AWESOME button in time with every attack I may focus on general strategy.

Second, It may have been because I was playing on nightmare, but when I was playing Dragon age 2 enemies were killing me in three hits(even when I had good armor and lots of health) will they were taking what seem like a 1000 to kill.

Don't know what your build was, but dying in 3 hits is ridiculous even in nightmare. Anyways, look at the amount of Health your party members had compared to the damage dealt by abilities(or even basic attacks for Rouges) Your abilities could probably kill you and your party members 2 times over with the damage they did.

third, If you are saying that the combat in final fantasy is bad, then I agree, but don't understand the comparisons to Dragon Age, at lest you can move in dragon age.

In FF enemies often have vastly higher health than you, yet basic attacks and abilities deal less damage than yours. That is how DA2 was.

note:I hate button bashers, the type of combat I like best is in games like assassin creed, were you have to out-think you enemy and hit them were there not defending.   

That still isn't what combat is usually like in the D&D style RPGs(which DAO was attempting to emulate). Combat should be tactical and thought out, making use of proper positioning of your party as well as AoE spells and traps. Assassin's Creed may be good, but it isn't what party-based RPG combat should be like, since Assassin's creed already does it better.

Note: I corrected some of your spelling errors, I just can't concentrate with the red lines underneath so many words.

[wsandista]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You are mistaken the list Dakota Strider is referring to is PC specific since that is what he games on.

My mistake, it is 12am here and i worked 8 hours today so I'm pretty tired. I should have made it explicit that I was talking about PC games. Just fixed that.

Modifié par wsandista, 16 mai 2012 - 05:01 .

[fchopin]

If this list below is supposed to be the 10 best games then i would give the people who scored the games a zero.

1.Fallout 3
2. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
3. Baldurs Gate II: Shadows of Amn
4. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
5. Dragon Age: Origins
6. Planescape: Torment
7. Baldurs Gate
8. Mass Effect 2
9. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
10. Neverwinter Nights


They should go out and play games from around the world so they can see what is available.

[MrMcDoll]

For me it would be:

1- Baldur's Gate 2
2- Planescape Torment
3- Baldur's Gate 1
4- Dragon Age Origins
5- Ultima 7
6- Mass Effect 2
7- Mass Effect
8- Ultima Underworld
9- Lands of Lore 2
10- Deus Ex

I haven't played Jade empire or either KotOR game all the way through since my xbox got nicked

Honorable mentions would be Eye of the Beholder series, as well as Quest for Glory series (though a point and click adventure game series - they were still remarkable ahead of their time in terms of role-playing)

Fallout 1 & 2 could be on the list but I find their gameplay to be something of a turn off these-days, Fallout 3 & NV are also close to the top but i'm not a fan of the sandbox style.
The Witcher 2 could be substituted for Deus Ex - but the latter has it beat in terms of story,