303 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

dreman9999 wrote...

 

 

As something resembling a "supporter" of the overall interpretation, I can't say that the foliage is indicative of the theory.  You're meant to take home the fact that the Normandy's crash-landing is an image not to be taken at face-value, but not necessarily because of indoctrination symptoms: they could be afterlife images, idyllic visions in the mind of a dying Shepard, or yes, hints towards indoctrination.

Certainly proof that it should be viewed with a more analytical, interpretive eye, though. 

[jules_vern18]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

They would never use the same plant twice in a game! Totally unheard of! You must be right!

All of Mass Effect 3 was a dream. Happy now?

Where else have you seen these plant? And why are the called dreamplants in the code?

Have you looked through other areas of the game where there are plants (ie Surkesh) to see if you can find it there, or did you just look at that last scene because that's where you wanted to find proof?  Come on, you can be honest

The developers created a mesh for use in their dream sequences.  Then, when creating the assets for the ending scene, they decided to just use it again.  Should they have gone back and renamed the file so as not to confuse people who might be looking to find a conspiracy?   No, because it probably never occurred to them that this would happen.

It's that or you honestly believe that this was an intentional clue left behind by Bioware to clue us in to IT - which they are still holding off on releasing despite the ongoing drops in sales, market share, and fan loyalty.

I think it's far more realistic to believe that it's just an erroneous file name.

[Darth_Trethon]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Huge difference....the dark energy plot was never developped or delivered.

There was plenty of development of it in ME2.

There are mountains of both actual evidence and circumstantial evidence showing the IT HAS been developed and delivered. There's so much that not implementing the IT would be a greater "change" to the plot they developed and delivered than not implementing it. Then there's the all shadowing question that anything short of completely cutting and changing the ending which they claim not to do what options have they got? They got themselves in a corner....you deny without ever touching any of the larger arguments and concerns and you yourself show no hit that you are even able to think of an alternate solution.

Again, missing the point.

Lets just boil this down. Nice and simple.

Statement 1: the IT provides a solution to most of the plotholes in the ending

Statement 2: the IT is true, and is already the intended interpretation of the endings


Both of us seem to agree with statement 1. The endings are full of plotholes, and the IT actually does cover most of them up.

However, statement 1 does not prove statement 2.

They never put themselves in a corner with the dark energy story in ME2....not like they did with the IT in ME3. There's also the matter that the IT is a means to go wherever....hell if they wanted they could go IT and then dark energy plotsince they are not mutually exclussive....the IT doesn't really exclude any possibilities.

And as far as taking their claims at face value there is nothing you can take at face value when they are contradicting themselves....they say that they won't change the endings and oly clarify but then they go around and say that if we knew what they had in store we'd react completely differently so clearly there must be signifficant change for us to react differently.....hence we have no idea what they are doing. Only one of those claims can be true....even with IT we don't know where they might go after.

[Hadeedak]

He/she is in a lot of pain. If you've been seriously hurt, you'll know the unusual high you get from it. You can certainly read the lack of argument as "Shepard is hurt too badly and too tired to really quarrel."

Boom. Explanation.

Without going "It was all a dream!"

[Candidate 88766]

Proof that the dream plant tag is meaningless:

Dream plants:


Plants on Sur'Kesh, which even the most adamant IT supports can't claim is a dream:



The plants are very clearly used as foliage on the Sur'Kesh mission, so their re-use in the ending sequence means nothings.

[jules_vern18]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Just take a second and actually THINK about it. There is no explanation besides the IT that can possibly make this and all the other trillion similar plotholes right.

The fact that it covers up a lot of the plotholes doesn't mean its true.

Claiming the entire trilogy is a dream gets rid of every plothole, but it clearly isn't true.

Anyway, I thought you were going? 

Who the hell said anything about the trilogy being a dream? The IT only touches events since the start of ME3 but only claims dreams state after Shepard is hit by the reaper beam.

The fact of the matter is there is no other way to explain it.....you are still not providing ANY logic.

It has been PROVEN BioWare intended and planned for an indoctrination scenario....it's tight there in black and white in their own production notes.....there's in game file names clearly labeling indoctrination and I'm not just talking about the endings. The only things you are denial without reason or logic.....because BioWare said something in a lazy textbox. REALLY, is that your best effort? It's also been proven BioWare lied to us a hundred times over about the ME3 endings....have you really got nothing?

I can sit around and deny that 1+1=2 and defend that 1+1=97 could be explained without ever providing any logic but that would be just stupid wouldn't it?

^(didn't get it)

The poster meant that, hypothetically, claiming that the entire trilogy was a dream would cover up every plothole, just like claiming that the ending was a dream covers up plotholes in the ending (IT).

To say that IT is the only possible explanation for the plotholes in the ending is like saying that the 9/11 conspiracy is the only way to explain the information discrepancies in those attacks. It's circular logic.

But the TRUTH is:  Sometimes things are just unknown.  Chalk it up to bad writing, sloppiness, whatever - there is no reason to insist that every plothole in the game was intentional.

Modifié par jules_vern18, 14 mai 2012 - 02:42 .

[Candidate 88766]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

They never put themselves in a corner with the dark energy story in ME2....not like they did with the IT in ME3. There's also the matter that the IT is a means to go wherever....hell if they wanted they could go IT and then dark energy plotsince they are not mutually exclussive....the IT doesn't really exclude any possibilities.

The IT being possible does not make the IT true. This is where we seem to be having issues.

And as far as taking their claims at face value there is nothing you can take at face value when they are contradicting themselves....they say that they won't change the endings and oly clarify but then they go around and say that if we knew what they had in store we'd react completely differently so clearly there must be signifficant change for us to react differently.....hence we have no idea what they are doing. Only one of those claims can be true....even with IT we don't know where they might go after.

Wrong.

Saying we'd react differently if we knew what was in store does not mean that significant change is coming. They might honestly believe that the level of clarification they're bringing to the endings really will make them much better. Or it could be marketing speak. Either way, it doesn't contradict the offical blog about the EC. And even if it does, a tweet is not on the same level as text placed directly in the game. 

[Baa Baa]

More and more solid evidence

[jules_vern18]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Proof that the dream plant tag is meaningless:

Dream plants:


Plants on Sur'Kesh, which even the most adamant IT supports can't claim is a dream:



The plants are very clearly used as foliage on the Sur'Kesh mission, so their re-use in the ending sequence means nothings.

And that's what happens when you look for "facts" only where they will suit your needs.  It wouldn't have taken long for OP to dig this up had he thought or cared to test his own theory.

[DJBare]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Proof that the dream plant tag is meaningless:

Dream plants:
Plants on Sur'Kesh, which even the most adamant IT supports can't claim is a dream:

The plants are very clearly used as foliage on the Sur'Kesh mission, so their re-use in the ending sequence means nothings.

This why I'm against the plants being used as evidence, they are reused assets, that's something we see quite often in games.

[Darth_Trethon]

Erield wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

By itself that might mean something but it's got too much backing it.....you haven't touched the file names for TIM controlling Shepard. You haven't touched the fact that BioWare clearly planned for IT....all you got is that it was cut but you never address the overshadowing issue that TIM does controll you and that none of it makes any sense unless you took into account BioWare's INTENDED course of action. It's all right there.....you grasp at the minor strawn but never really address any of the major issues.

BioWare didn't expect the kind of lashback they got so they set to make things right....why wouldn't they do what they planned in the first place especailly since all polls proved most are willing to accept the solutiopn? You poinnt at double talk that again has been proven to be double speak with BioWare both claiming to change nothing and that we know nothing or we'd react differently.....both can't be true, period.

After all this you seriously claim that I am ignoring evidence? You have none.

File names mean nothing.  It's been told, and told, over and over again in this thread and other places that assets and resources get used and re-used.  To change the hard-location of the source to directly apply to the current asset or resource only would require a significant amount of extra work.  Just because a 3d object starts life being planned as one thing does not mean that it ends life there.  File names alone can not be realistically considered as any part of evidence for or against IT.

Bioware planned a sequence for IT.  They scrapped the sequence for IT.  We ended up with a sequence where TIM controls Shepard.  We have no idea the sense of scale that Bioware was considering; only that it involved losing control of your character while also having dialogue.  What we have in the TIM scene seems pretty clear to me that the TIM scene is what replaced it.  I don't see how TIM being able to control you is evidence that you are Indoctrinated by the Reapers.  He is clearly using control-tech he created on Sanctuary.

Bioware's INTENDED course of action can only be guessed at because we only know bits and pieces.  We know there was "a" sequence.  You say that I am grasping at minor straws, but not addressing the major issues.  WHAT ARE THE MAJOR ISSUES?  I'll address anything and everything. 

The EC is going to clarify and provide closure.  We can argue for hours what that means, exactly.  That doesn't matter, though.  You are missing the point of my arguments.  It's not that I have evidence to prove you wrong; it's that the evidence you provide does not make IT a fact.

No idea if you are missing the point or plain ignoring it.

1) The reapers are far more capable that TIM so if TIM is controlled by them and he can control Shepard why couldn't or wouldn't they control shepard.
2) Shepard goes completely numb intellectually when he meets the reaper kid....all the reason escapes him and he simply stands there and just accepts everything he's told.......if that's not a clear as day alarm bell I don't know what is.

What I am trying to say is simple....BioWare no longer has much of a choice if the IT is to be a half decent effort but to go with their originally intended plan of indoctrination.

BioWare seems to be of the mind that the EC will please most but the only thing we know for a fact would please most is the IT and there are solid poll results and voting on it to show this.

[dreamgazer]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Proof that the dream plant tag is meaningless:

Dream plants:


Plants on Sur'Kesh, which even the most adamant IT supports can't claim is a dream:



The plants are very clearly used as foliage on the Sur'Kesh mission, so their re-use in the ending sequence means nothings.

And that's what happens when you look for "facts" only where they will suit your needs.  It wouldn't have taken long for OP to dig this up had he thought or cared to test his own theory.

To be fair, and unless I'm missing something that clearly attaches the first images to Sur'Kesh's coding, the elements in the "Dream Plant" swatch don't line up perfectly with the foliage on the salarian home planet.   Similar in color swatches and structure, sure, but only similar. 

[Elyiia]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

No idea if you are missing the point or plain ignoring it.

1) The reapers are far more capable that TIM so if TIM is controlled by them and he can control Shepard why couldn't or wouldn't they control shepard.
2) Shepard goes completely numb intellectually when he meets the reaper kid....all the reason escapes him and he simply stands there and just accepts everything he's told.......if that's not a clear as day alarm bell I don't know what is.

What I am trying to say is simple....BioWare no longer has much of a choice if the IT is to be a half decent effort but to go with their originally intended plan of indoctrination.

BioWare seems to be of the mind that the EC will please most but the only thing we know for a fact would please most is the IT and there are solid poll results and voting on it to show this.

You realise, of course, there's a major difference between TIM's control and Reaper control right? Reaper control controls the body because it controls the mind. If you can temporarily break this control, then you can do as you like till it's regained. TIM control however is body specific, Shepard can still talk and think because TIM does not control his mind.

[Darth_Trethon]

jules_vern18 wrote...

^(didn't get it)

The poster meant that, hypothetically, claiming that the entire trilogy was a dream would cover up every plothole, just like claiming that the ending was a dream covers up plotholes in the ending (IT).

To say that IT is the only possible explanation for the plotholes in the ending is like saying that the 9/11 conspiracy is the only way to explain the information discrepancies in those attacks. It's circular logic.

But the TRUTH is:  Sometimes things are just unknown.  Chalk it up to bad writing, sloppiness, whatever - there is no reason to insist that every plothole in the game was intentional.

Not really no. We have no idea what went on with 9/11 so them not clarifying doesn't prove absolutely anything...space ponies did it.

But we do know that BioWare was planning for IT and even though this was allegedly cut the detailed action still happens with TIM and there isn't anything else that can explain why shep just up and goes mentally stupid in front of the reaper god and just accepts everything withhout argument....I'm sorry but there is no way to explain this change in shepard by any other means than IT. He just put all that effort into resisting TIM but when faced with the real enemy he just turns stupid?

[Darth_Trethon]

Elyiia wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

No idea if you are missing the point or plain ignoring it.

1) The reapers are far more capable that TIM so if TIM is controlled by them and he can control Shepard why couldn't or wouldn't they control shepard.
2) Shepard goes completely numb intellectually when he meets the reaper kid....all the reason escapes him and he simply stands there and just accepts everything he's told.......if that's not a clear as day alarm bell I don't know what is.

What I am trying to say is simple....BioWare no longer has much of a choice if the IT is to be a half decent effort but to go with their originally intended plan of indoctrination.

BioWare seems to be of the mind that the EC will please most but the only thing we know for a fact would please most is the IT and there are solid poll results and voting on it to show this.

You realise, of course, there's a major difference between TIM's control and Reaper control right? Reaper control controls the body because it controls the mind. If you can temporarily break this control, then you can do as you like till it's regained. TIM control however is body specific, Shepard can still talk and think because TIM does not control his mind.

And Shepard's mind seems just about gone when faced with the reaper god....the real enemy....shortly after TIM controlled his body. Yeah seems pretty clear it's there.....what other explanation can there possibly be for Shepard to just flop in front of the actual enemy and just accept everything as told.

[Candidate 88766]

dreamgazer wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Proof that the dream plant tag is meaningless:

Dream plants:


Plants on Sur'Kesh, which even the most adamant IT supports can't claim is a dream:



The plants are very clearly used as foliage on the Sur'Kesh mission, so their re-use in the ending sequence means nothings.

And that's what happens when you look for "facts" only where they will suit your needs.  It wouldn't have taken long for OP to dig this up had he thought or cared to test his own theory.

To be fair, and unless I'm missing something that clearly attaches the first images to Sur'Kesh's coding, the elements in the "Dream Plant" swatch don't line up perfectly with the foliage on the salarian home planet.   Similar in color swatches and structure, sure, but only similar. 

The markings on the bottom left 'dream leaf' match up exactly with the markings on the leaf on the bottom right hand side of the middle image. The colour difference is due to the poor quality of the image.

[Erield]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

No idea if you are missing the point or plain ignoring it.

1) The reapers are far more capable that TIM so if TIM is controlled by them and he can control Shepard why couldn't or wouldn't they control shepard.
2) Shepard goes completely numb intellectually when he meets the reaper kid....all the reason escapes him and he simply stands there and just accepts everything he's told.......if that's not a clear as day alarm bell I don't know what is.

3. What I am trying to say is simple....BioWare no longer has much of a choice if the IT is to be a half decent effort but to go with their originally intended plan of indoctrination.

4. BioWare seems to be of the mind that the EC will please most but the only thing we know for a fact would please most is the IT and there are solid poll results and voting on it to show this.

1) In the first, TIM is Indoctrinated.  So, him doing his bit on shepard is by the will and at the behest of the Reapers.  Second, TIM's implants seem to work differently than traditional Reaper Indoctrination, because he actually controls Shepard instead of changing the way Shepard thinks.  Third, TIM's ability to actually control Shepard seems limited; sure, he's able to keep Shep still and twitch a finger, but that's really about it.  He's not able to make Shepard shut up, after all.  Not too sure what the Reapers were going for there, to be honest, but the Reapers made a lot of questionable (to me) moves in the game.

2) In the same app you source for the Indoctrination sequence proof, there's also a bit where it's mentioned that there was going to be this big investigative session with the Star Child.  They changed their minds about that.  My take on that is that they actually had the dialogue and everything, and then axed it--leaving us with "stupid Shepard."

3) If Bioware goes with IT, then they also have to provide a conclusion to Shepard's story that also ends the Reaper threat.  This is substantially different than the tone they have used when discussing the EC.  It could be that they will; we don't know.  As it stands right now, though, if IT is true then the Reapers have not been defeated.  This issue has to be addressed.

4) I have seen solid poll results showing that people hate the endings.  I have not seen poll results that have a significant number of people (tens of thousands) with solid majorities of people saying, "Oh.  Hey.  IT.  Let's do it."
Besides, I'm not a real big fan of "Writing the story by committee--on the Internet!"  So, just because people love IT should not be considered a reason for them to include it in the EC.

[dreamgazer]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The markings on the bottom left 'dream leaf' match up exactly with the markings on the leaf on the bottom right hand side of the middle image. The colour difference is due to the poor quality of the image.

To each his own, I suppose.  I see a precise match-up in the image present in the thread's original post, but I only see vague resemblance in what you're asserting with those shots---and that's assuming there's not another leaf texture somewhere in the swatches that more clearly reflects those.  I'll bear it in mind, though, when I play through the sequence again around the extended cut. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 14 mai 2012 - 03:03 .

[Parabolee77]

dreamgazer wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Proof that the dream plant tag is meaningless:

Dream plants:


Plants on Sur'Kesh, which even the most adamant IT supports can't claim is a dream:



The plants are very clearly used as foliage on the Sur'Kesh mission, so their re-use in the ending sequence means nothings.

And that's what happens when you look for "facts" only where they will suit your needs.  It wouldn't have taken long for OP to dig this up had he thought or cared to test his own theory.

To be fair, and unless I'm missing something that clearly attaches the first images to Sur'Kesh's coding, the elements in the "Dream Plant" swatch don't line up perfectly with the foliage on the salarian home planet.   Similar in color swatches and structure, sure, but only similar. 

Just so people know one of those images the OP used is miine from my guide (see my sig).

And I used it as a peice of evidence to support the theory as apposed to a clear cut case closed peice. Even if it was proven this dream foilage was used in the actual dreams and then in this scene it would be supporting evidence although not as strong.


I would also like to note that the images shown above DO NOT appear to show the same texture like the poster claims. It's all very well berating the OP for not researching this but you have made the same error. 

You claim that these are the same textures but they are not, similar yes, the same no.

In fact if you want to research this you can, I am more than willing to point out the counter evidence in my guide if someone is able to provide proof that these textures are used elsewhere. These images do not prove it though.

If I had the PC version I would use the texture viewer to take a look at this section of the game and find the correct textures for these plants. I am confident they are different from examining them in other images. Something I did before I posted it in my guide already.

And I have looked at the dream sequences and not found these textures in them either. Some similar foilage yes, the same no.

Now that is not to say that is not there, only that I have yet to find it. I intended to do a more thurough search this weekend but I got a cornial abrahsion and seeing anything was very difficult

This foilage is simply a peice of evidence to add to the already rather large base of evidence for the Indoctrination Theory.

If you choose not to be convinced by it, I respect that. But your going to have to discredit  alot more than this one peice of evidence to undermine the theory in my opinion. See my guide for a comprehenmsive list of clues  -

parabolee.blogspot.com

Modifié par Parabolee77, 14 mai 2012 - 03:11 .

[thesnake777]

I really just feel these are reused assets.. Granted where these plants have been put is nonsensical but its just reused assets..

[Darth_Trethon]

Erield wrote...

1) In the first, TIM is Indoctrinated.  So, him doing his bit on shepard is by the will and at the behest of the Reapers.  Second, TIM's implants seem to work differently than traditional Reaper Indoctrination, because he actually controls Shepard instead of changing the way Shepard thinks.  Third, TIM's ability to actually control Shepard seems limited; sure, he's able to keep Shep still and twitch a finger, but that's really about it.  He's not able to make Shepard shut up, after all.  Not too sure what the Reapers were going for there, to be honest, but the Reapers made a lot of questionable (to me) moves in the game.

2) In the same app you source for the Indoctrination sequence proof, there's also a bit where it's mentioned that there was going to be this big investigative session with the Star Child.  They changed their minds about that.  My take on that is that they actually had the dialogue and everything, and then axed it--leaving us with "stupid Shepard."

3) If Bioware goes with IT, then they also have to provide a conclusion to Shepard's story that also ends the Reaper threat.  This is substantially different than the tone they have used when discussing the EC.  It could be that they will; we don't know.  As it stands right now, though, if IT is true then the Reapers have not been defeated.  This issue has to be addressed.

4) I have seen solid poll results showing that people hate the endings.  I have not seen poll results that have a significant number of people (tens of thousands) with solid majorities of people saying, "Oh.  Hey.  IT.  Let's do it."
Besides, I'm not a real big fan of "Writing the story by committee--on the Internet!"  So, just because people love IT should not be considered a reason for them to include it in the EC.

Well I think BioWare is in a position where it really needs to start thinking about salvaging what it can of its reputation and its core fanbase. Most of the core fans only hang around for the EC since after DA2 and now this the general sentiment is that it won't take much for BioWare to be mostly dropped by its fanbase.

Then there's the matter of EA's greed.....whatever the EC does I can just about guarantee there will be a largely happy roses and cakes ending because it's the economically safe thing to do....people don't complain nearly as much when they are happy. Beyond that the IT is much in the same spot.....a largely economically safe thing to do.

If what you say about then just up and abandoning the indoctrination plot were true then the existing endings would just fall under stupid.....since without indoctrination to give them some sort of cohesion...even missing an ending as is....they'd just be unsalvageable. There really isn't anything else they can do as far as I can tell.

[Erield]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

If what you say about then just up and abandoning the indoctrination plot were true then the existing endings would just fall under stupid.....since without indoctrination to give them some sort of cohesion...even missing an ending as is....they'd just be unsalvageable. There really isn't anything else they can do as far as I can tell.

We can definitely agree on that point.

[DOYOURLABS]

Isn't that the plant from Sur'Kesh?

[shepskisaac]

Hey... IT's... DId you know that the same planets are used in dream sequences and in Priority: London? Ooops

[Kaelef]

People who know nothing about programming trying to find meaning in the names of code objects and graphical assets... *sigh*

Modifié par Kaelef, 14 mai 2012 - 03:29 .