277 réponses à ce sujet

[freler31]

Exactly. So what is it about "suddenly and abruptly" and "contrived and unexpected" that you think is good?

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

"A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object."

...And ME3 ending fits this perfectly.

....... anything else? 

Maybe some info about how the term is used as a means of criticism for poor story-telling? 

No? 

This is why you have no idea what you're talking about. 

DEM's are not neutral story devices, they are inherently bad, that's what they mean, they are bad literary conventions writers should know not to use, that is what they mean. 

What don't you understand about that? 

When a DEM appears in a story you don't then judge how appropriate or fitting it is, the very fact that you know it's a DEM means the writers have made a mistake, that their writing is poor. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 juin 2012 - 08:14 .

[M Hedonist]

Maybe Seival is mixing up Deus Ex Machinas with Deus Sex Machinas.

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

"A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object."

...And ME3 ending fits this perfectly.

....... anything else? 

Maybe some info about how the term is used as a means of criticism for poor story-telling? 

No? 

This is why you have no idea what you're talking about. 

DEM's are not neutral story devices, they are inherently bad, that's what they mean, they are bad literary conventions writers should know not to use. 

Yes, some people prefer to think that DEMs = poor story-telling. But not all of them think so. BioWare doesn't think so. Eidos doesn't think so. I don't think so. A lot of other players don't think so.

[o Ventus]

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

"A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object."

...And ME3 ending fits this perfectly.

....... anything else? 

Maybe some info about how the term is used as a means of criticism for poor story-telling? 

No? 

This is why you have no idea what you're talking about. 

DEM's are not neutral story devices, they are inherently bad, that's what they mean, they are bad literary conventions writers should know not to use. 

Yes, some people prefer to think that DEMs = poor story-telling. But not all of them think so. BioWare doesn't think so. Eidos doesn't think so. I don't think so. A lot of other players don't think so.

When has Eidos ever used a Deus Ex Machina?

[Seival]

o Ventus wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

"A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object."

...And ME3 ending fits this perfectly.

....... anything else? 

Maybe some info about how the term is used as a means of criticism for poor story-telling? 

No? 

This is why you have no idea what you're talking about. 

DEM's are not neutral story devices, they are inherently bad, that's what they mean, they are bad literary conventions writers should know not to use. 

Yes, some people prefer to think that DEMs = poor story-telling. But not all of them think so. BioWare doesn't think so. Eidos doesn't think so. I don't think so. A lot of other players don't think so.

When has Eidos ever used a Deus Ex Machina?

DE:HR. And please, don't try to tell me "there is no DEM in DE:HR".

[M Hedonist]

Seival wrote...

DE:HR. And please, don't try to tell me "there is no DEM in DE:HR".

You clearly have no idea what a DEM is. I'm convinced you're talking about Deus Sex Machina, instead.

[o Ventus]

Seival wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

"A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object."

...And ME3 ending fits this perfectly.

....... anything else? 

Maybe some info about how the term is used as a means of criticism for poor story-telling? 

No? 

This is why you have no idea what you're talking about. 

DEM's are not neutral story devices, they are inherently bad, that's what they mean, they are bad literary conventions writers should know not to use. 

Yes, some people prefer to think that DEMs = poor story-telling. But not all of them think so. BioWare doesn't think so. Eidos doesn't think so. I don't think so. A lot of other players don't think so.

When has Eidos ever used a Deus Ex Machina?

DE:HR. And please, don't try to tell me "there is no DEM in DE:HR".

"There is no Deus Ex Machina in Deus Ex"

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...


Yes, some people prefer to think that DEMs = poor story-telling. But not all of them think so.

Not all of the people who think DEM's are bad, think DEM's are bad? 

Wat? 

BioWare doesn't think so.

You assume BioWare had an absolute purpose behind everything they did, rather than just believing they made a mistake. 

You're a bot. Rather than use logic, you invent a new and irrelevant meaning to a term to support your own conclusion, which makes anything you say on the matter completely pointless. 

Eidos doesn't think so.

Oh no. 

I take you haven't played any of the games in the series, by that statement. That's insulting. 

I don't think so.

Evidently. That's what makes you wrong, not that you've qualified why I should take your opinion on the matter as valid. 

A lot of other players don't think so.

Irrelevant. I don't see any of them here. You can't speak for anyone else but yourself. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 juin 2012 - 08:32 .

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...


Yes, some people prefer to think that DEMs = poor story-telling. But not all of them think so.

Not all of the people who think DEM's are bad, think DEM's are bad? 

Wat? 

BioWare doesn't think so.

You assume BioWare had an absolute purpose behind everything they did, rather than just believing they made a mistake. 

You're a bot. Rather than use logic, you invent a new and irrelevant meaning to a term to support your own conclusion, which makes anything you say on the matter completely pointless. 

Eidos doesn't think so.

Oh no. 

I take you haven't played any of the games in the series, by that statement. That's insulting. 

I don't think so.

Evidently, that's what makes you wrong.

A lot of other players don't think so.

Irrelevant. I don't see any of them here. You can't speak for anyone else but yourself. 

I think you already understood that I meant that not all people dislike DEMs. This thread is not an entire world.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

I think you already understood that I meant that not all people dislike DEMs. This thread is not an entire world.

Anyone who thinks they're anything but poor story-telling devices, undesirable, evidence that they writers have made mistakes, bad, are WRONG. 

But good of you to avoid the actual point. 

Why are they good? How can they be anything but bad? 

Explain. I don't expect much given this thread and its two companions, it'll likely be series of assumptions with no actual logical reasoning to be found, but stupidity this interesting is always hilarious to read. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 juin 2012 - 08:39 .

[M Hedonist]

Seival wrote...

I think you already understood that I meant that not all people dislike DEMs. This thread is not an entire world.

The world where DEMs are good literary devices is a mental institution.

[Seival]

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

I think you already understood that I meant that not all people dislike DEMs. This thread is not an entire world.

The world where DEMs are good literary devices is a mental institution.

BioWare, and many other people disagree with that.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

I think you already understood that I meant that not all people dislike DEMs. This thread is not an entire world.

The world where DEMs are good literary devices is a mental institution.

BioWare, and many other people disagree with that.

Then they are.........

http://t3.gstatic.co...h6MT5ph8R2QxNoO

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 juin 2012 - 08:45 .

[Demigod]

Seival wrote...
DE:HR. And please, don't try to tell me "there is no DEM in DE:HR".

The only reason DX:HR gets away with it is its in the title so it sort of broudcast it, I read it somewhere maybe the title lol . Also you can "sort of" avoid it as there is a forth option, the other three are roughly the same as mass effect 3's, youd think they had played it or something, and to be honest are just as bad. BUT its epilogues speech are actually better imho and MAKE SENSE and doesnt break continuity with what came before. Something ME3 cant hope to claim at the moment at least.

[M Hedonist]

Demigod wrote...

Seival wrote...
DE:HR. And please, don't try to tell me "there is no DEM in DE:HR".

The only reason DX:HR gets away with it is its in the title so it sort of broudcast it, I read it somewhere maybe the title lol . Also you can "sort of" avoid it as there is a forth option, the other three are roughly the same as mass effect 3's, youd think they had played it or something, and to be honest are just as bad. BUT its epilogues speech are actually better imho and MAKE SENSE and doesnt break continuity with what came before. Something ME3 cant hope to claim at the moment at least.

No. There is no Deus Ex Machina in DE:HR. Anybody who says different has either never played the game or does not know what a DEM actually is.

[Kurremurre]

I don't know, isn't a literary device considered bad because it tends to confuse or displease the reader/viewer? If so, I don't see how a Deus ex Machina is objectively bad. If a reader/viewer isn't confused or displeased by the inclusion of a DEM, then it didn't affect their experience adversely, and it wouldn't be seen as bad storytelling from their point of view.

That said, the same thing could be said about manure. If you like eating manure, then there's no real problem for you (as far as taste goes, specifically). It does mean you're an idiot with abominable preferences, though.

[M Hedonist]

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

I think you already understood that I meant that not all people dislike DEMs. This thread is not an entire world.

The world where DEMs are good literary devices is a mental institution.

BioWare, and many other people disagree with that.

These people live in a mental institution.
In case of Bioware, the writers tried their best to make the DEM as convoluted as possible. If they really wanted to make a DEM, they would have had the Catalyst single-handedly stop the Reapers without the Crucible. As it is, the only thing close to a real DEM the game has is the Catalyst, but he never actually does anything other than tell you how to activate the Crucible.

[The Night Mammoth]

Kurremurre wrote...

I don't know, isn't a literary device considered bad because it tends to confuse or displease the reader/viewer? If so, I don't see how a Deus ex Machina is objectively bad. If a reader/viewer isn't confused or displeased by the inclusion of a DEM, then it didn't affect their experience adversely, and it wouldn't be seen as bad storytelling from their point of view.

That said, the same thing could be said about manure. If you like eating manure, then there's no real problem for you (as far as taste goes, specifically). It does mean you're an idiot with abominable preferences, though.

I think there's a major difference between not minding something objecitvely bad exists, and believing something objectively bad can be good. 

A DEM is a flaw, that's objective. You may not mind the flaw for various reasons, but it's still a flaw. DEM's are inherently bad, you can't have a 'good' one. 

[Demigod]

Sauruz wrote...

Demigod wrote...

Seival wrote...
DE:HR. And please, don't try to tell me "there is no DEM in DE:HR".

The only reason DX:HR gets away with it is its in the title so it sort of broudcast it, I read it somewhere maybe the title lol . Also you can "sort of" avoid it as there is a forth option, the other three are roughly the same as mass effect 3's, youd think they had played it or something, and to be honest are just as bad. BUT its epilogues speech are actually better imho and MAKE SENSE and doesnt break continuity with what came before. Something ME3 cant hope to claim at the moment at least.

No. There is no Deus Ex Machina in DE:HR. Anybody who says different has either never played the game or does not know what a DEM actually is.

Actually now I think back your right. This thread is doing wonders for my iq. Maybe coffee would help. The ending and choicers are rather set up arent they, still cant say I like them all though . Must play that again looks at dead hdd looks at bandwidth limit 

[o Ventus]

Kurremurre wrote...

I don't know, isn't a literary device considered bad because it tends to confuse or displease the reader/viewer? If so, I don't see how a Deus ex Machina is objectively bad. If a reader/viewer isn't confused or displeased by the inclusion of a DEM, then it didn't affect their experience adversely, and it wouldn't be seen as bad storytelling from their point of view.

That said, the same thing could be said about manure. If you like eating manure, then there's no real problem for you (as far as taste goes, specifically). It does mean you're an idiot with abominable preferences, though.

A literary device is any tool the author uses to tell the story.

A deus ex machina is a bad literary device. It comes out of nowhere, has no bearing on any part of the previously established plot, and is incredibly anticlimactic. How can you not be confused by the inclusion of a DEM? A DEM, by its very virtue, is confusing, because it literally comes OUT OF NOWHERE.

For example, say Harry Potter and Voldemort were fighting. Voldemort was about to kill Harry, when all of a sudden, Optimus Prime comes down from Cybertron and turns voldemort into the Allspark. Not only is it incredibly anticlimactic, but it has no place in the story.

Modifié par o Ventus, 16 juin 2012 - 08:54 .

[Demigod]

o Ventus wrote...
For example, say Harry Potter and Voldemort were fighting. Voldemort was about to kill Harry, when all of a sudden, Optimus Prime comes down from Cybertron and turns voldemort into the Allspark. Not only is it incredibly anticlimactic, but it has no place in the story.

Ah I see you played ME3.

[Kurremurre]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I think there's a major difference between not minding something objecitvely bad exists, and believing something objectively bad can be good. 

A DEM is a flaw, that's objective. You may not mind the flaw for various reasons, but it's still a flaw. DEM's are inherently bad, you can't have a 'good' one. 

I agree with the first sentence, but you haven't shown why DEMs would be objectively bad. If the reason is that it's confusing or displeasing, then it's dependent on how the reader/viewer receives it - which would make it subjective, no?

If we go by the "confusing and/or displeasing" definition (which, admittedly, I am not so sure is the standard one), then at best it could be said to be generally bad.

o Ventus wrote...

A literary device is any tool the author uses to tell the story.

A deus ex machina is a bad literary device. It comes out of nowhere, has no bearing on any part of the previously established plot, and is incredibly anticlimactic. How can you not be confused by the inclusion of a DEM? A DEM, by its very virtue, is confusing, because it literally comes OUT OF NOWHERE.

For example, say Harry Potter and Voldemort were fighting. Voldemort was about to kill Harry, when all of a sudden, Optimus Prime comes down from Cybertron and turns voldemort into the Allspark. Not only is it incredibly anticlimactic, but it has no place in the story.

I'm not saying a DEM isn't confusing - I do think they are garbage literary devices - but Seival seems to disagree.

(Also, I know what a literary device is - I'm afraid I worded that first sentence very poorly.)

Modifié par Kurremurre, 16 juin 2012 - 09:19 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Kurremurre wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I think there's a major difference between not minding something objecitvely bad exists, and believing something objectively bad can be good. 

A DEM is a flaw, that's objective. You may not mind the flaw for various reasons, but it's still a flaw. DEM's are inherently bad, you can't have a 'good' one. 

I agree with the first sentence, but you haven't shown why DEMs would be objectively bad.

I don't have to. That's not meant as a snarky point, I just don't. That's meaning of the term, it's something that is bad. 

If the reason is that it's confusing or displeasing, then it's dependent on how the reader/viewer receives it - which would make it subjective, no?

That's part of the reason. More importantly though, they're not supported by the narrative, they're out of place, they're contrived. 

The Catalyst is a DEM because the narrative does not support its inclusion, it appears out of nowhere to solve an impossible situation.

[Pottumuusi]

http://t3.gstatic.co...8aa9tSI9yyvrnFc

Oh no, another resurrected Seival thread...

Leave the dead where they fall, please.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 16 juin 2012 - 09:32 .